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Hot For Teacher

TAMPA - A Tampa-area middle school teacher is under arrest, accused of having sex with a student.

A Tampa Florida area middle school teacher is under arrest, accused of having sex with a student.

Reading teacher Debra Beasley LaFave, 23, is a newlywed who is accused of performing oral sex on a 14-year-old student at Greco Middle School twice in the past month.

LaFave is being held in the Hillsborough County Jail on $15,000 bail.

The 2002 graduate of the University of South Florida was married 11 months ago.

Temple Terrace police said that LaFave was arrested at her home after the 14-year-old boy told his mother the allegations. LaFave was reportedly never the boy's teacher.

Seems more like a letter to Penthouse than a news story. She's a recently married, smoking hot teacher (that's a mug shot above), and she's going to chase after a 14 year old?

On the other hand, additional charges have been filed against her, and there may be another 15 year old boy involved.

Update: The Smoking Gun has the arrest reports.

Update 2: Via high school classmates:

Apparently Debbie Beasley, as she was known in high school, was quite the sexual adventurer in her younger years. She was always very well dressed and beautiful. She was a switch hitter (dating a female softball player), which meant all the guys wanted her and all the girls were jealous. Old friends were suprised that she married her high school boyfriend, as neither one of them was particularly known for fidelity.

Update 3: The National Enquirer is reporting the Lafave and Backstreek Boy Nick Carter were an item in high school. They also confirm the lesbian relationship reported above.

Image Gallery

debra_lafave2.jpg debra_lafave_wedding.jpg
0628042teach1.jpg debbiebeasley.jpg
debra-lafave-pic.jpg lafave_debra_bike2.jpg

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» Serewicz News linked with The Teacher Fantasy - Debra LaFave

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Comments (126)

She could lose the eyelashe... (Below threshold)

She could lose the eyelashes, though.

In all seriousness though, WTF are these teachers thinking?

Innocent until proven guilt... (Below threshold)

Innocent until proven guilty, people.

After looking at the other ... (Below threshold)

After looking at the other pictures, I'll bet that it wasn't the boy's father who wanted to press charges.

I feel for her husband--how... (Below threshold)

I feel for her husband--how humiliating and maddening this has to be for him.

Hope she's guilty, because ... (Below threshold)

Hope she's guilty, because either way, she's toast.

Good call on the eyelashes, btw. She's wicked hot, but the lashes are freaky.

She looks just like Barbie.... (Below threshold)

She looks just like Barbie.

This story is intriguing a ... (Below threshold)

This story is intriguing a lot of people here in Tampa.

I can't imagine why she would do such a thing but I also can't imagine why the boys would tell.

However, I'm 24 and she's 23. If she needs "lessons" from an older guy (lol) then she's more than welcome to give me a call.

She's in a field where your... (Below threshold)

She's in a field where your life is destroyed whether you actually did anything or not. A male friend of mine who is a nurse had his life ruined by false charges.

When you are a teacher or nurse/doctor etc... you don't have to do anything wrong to have your life ruined by vendictive children and angry parents.

Gawd...where was she when I... (Below threshold)

Gawd...where was she when I was 14?????

You can't imagine why the b... (Below threshold)

You can't imagine why the boys would tell?

If I was 14, and a smoking hot teacher gave me a bj, the question isn't why I would tell, but who wouldn't I tell?

The cousin who drove them a... (Below threshold)

The cousin who drove them around reportedly said the teacher claimed that the fact that it was illegal turned her on.

Proving once again that 14 ... (Below threshold)
Somebody had to say it:

Proving once again that 14 year olds are stupid...

This case has Tampa buzzing... (Below threshold)

This case has Tampa buzzing.

iBeJO: Gawd...where was ... (Below threshold)

iBeJO: Gawd...where was she when I was 14?????

Pre-school, day care or at home with Mom, I would guess, since she would have been four years old at the time, you freakin' pervert.

Eyelashes? Eyelashes!?</... (Below threshold)

Eyelashes? Eyelashes!?

Sheesh. Kids today...


Sheesh, there was more lear... (Below threshold)

Sheesh, there was more learned at U. of S. Florida than English. There is Way Way more here that will eventually come out.

Miles apart Cousins ("Boys") stories match as do details of tatoos and intimate details of her person. Too Bad she didn't look up the Statute and the Jail time first, and remember how boys love to brag.

A) She's only guilty of being indescreet and a very stupid tease -- For those who fail to grow up, life has it's way of forcing it

B) She's done for a long time - Jail, fines, families pissed, humiliations galore -- going after her husband's best friend or Father's business partner not a big enough thrill, oh no, she picks something with Jail time

A) or B) there are ALOT of losers here including the "Boys" families. If there is a devil in this world, then this is the "classic bait and switch sucker ploy, promise of a thrill, but a payoff of Jail, heartache and humiliations galore for LOTS of people for years to come

props to the boy, i mean lo... (Below threshold)

props to the boy, i mean look at her she is beautiful!

Damn She is so hot Smoking ... (Below threshold)

Damn She is so hot Smoking HOT She is a model look at her, Men love her and wanna see more pictures of her and hear to what happens to this Beautiful creature. It's a 14 year olds dream to have a gal like that to even talk to a gal like that and cruise with her in her jeep. Whish we would have women like that down here in Toronto Canada

I think it is important to ... (Below threshold)

I think it is important to note that with
a super hot babe like that, virtually every
boy in the school probably thinks about having
sex with her at least 50 times a day - and a
story about sex with her could really be
something to brag about - whether or true or not.

These kinds of cases really... (Below threshold)

These kinds of cases really push the boundaries of our social/cultural values vs. legal, 'justice is blind' boundaries. In this instance, every man quietly wishes he had this chance - yet when confronted on the legal issues, we all would be forced to submit that, if guilty, the acts deserve severe punishment.

But do they? Go back 100 years, replay the event (replace the SUV with a buggy argh argh), and see if you think she'ed be nabbed. Id suspect that in 1904 - this woman would be spurned as a whore (too bad) - or shrugged off by family and police as a 'conming of age' event. I wonder which is right and which is wrong - 1904 or 2004? Probably somewhere in the middle...as with all things... :)

Interesting subject. Glimli

Just a wild thought here bu... (Below threshold)

Just a wild thought here but . . . this could be one of the best scams of the year. There isn't a TV producer in America who doesn't want these two (and hubby) to do a tell all. Some will pay heavily for it. Mags and newspapers, too. Actually, it has appeal beyond U.S. Huge appeal. Wish I thought of it. Wish I were 14. I keep muttering to myself ... there's a victim here somewhere, right? Maybe it's us.

She's real hott what dumb k... (Below threshold)

She's real hott what dumb kid oh my god I would have let her do whatever she wanted to me. And yeah I think that kid should have shut his mouth lol I mean seriously if I was 4+ years old I would still let her do it It's exiting.

She REALLY did it: the poli... (Below threshold)

She REALLY did it: the police arrest warrant is posted on the web! the kid knows VERY specific details about her tattoos, her shaved private parts, and her bedroom at her home. He describes in detail her undergarments (which the police can sieze as evid), and that she's on birth-control. Plus, he had sex with her in front of his cousin, who confirms the details. But, the most devestating evid: the kid phoned her with the police listening in and tells her he wants to start using condoms when they have sex and she agrees but asks him why he is worrying about that? So, she did it, but WHY? She is drop-dead gorgeous! She could have any man she wanted. And she picks a 14 year old kid? Must be some deep-seated psychological issues with her: intimidated by grown-up men, she can only relate to a child...

I'm crying in my beer. Wher... (Below threshold)

I'm crying in my beer. Where were hot teachers when I was in school eons ago. I hope she is innocent, but if she has the tats the boy described to the police she is toast. I've read the LE report. It sizzles.

THAT KID IS LUCKY TO HAVE S... (Below threshold)


Does anybody know what type... (Below threshold)

Does anybody know what type tattoos she had, there maybe more to this than we think.

Whether or not the allegati... (Below threshold)

Whether or not the allegations are true, these kids are total losers. When I was in high school a 17 year old male classmate was having sex with a teacher and my then girlfriend and I knew and told no one, MYOB. As for "who wouldn't I tell..."; discretion is the better part of valor besides if you're going to act like a grown-up, go the whole nine yards and keep your sex life to yourself and your partner. As for those who commented on her eyelashes, if you were with a fine lady like this why would you be looking at her eyelashes?

Wonder if they listened to ... (Below threshold)

Wonder if they listened to Van Halen's "Hot For Teacher"?

I think that everyone can agree on one thing here, all YOU guys wish YOU were the student.

This kid is going to be a h... (Below threshold)

This kid is going to be a hero for the rest of his life. She is blazing hot. I would have threatened my mother w/ suicide if she told the cops. He could have had this treat for who knows how long had he/his cousin/ his mom kept their yaps shut.

Poor girl is batting 1000..... (Below threshold)

Poor girl is batting 1000...a 14 year old, and a gay husband. I wonder if she's going to do any tutoring in jail....I always wanted to learn how to read!!!

She is fantastic, I wish I ... (Below threshold)

She is fantastic, I wish I was that school boy.
Well done boy.

Who did this kid tell? What... (Below threshold)
Jay Byrd:

Who did this kid tell? What I do not get is this kid did it willingly, so why should she be in trouble? 14 years old is old enough to know better.

Legal age of consent for a ... (Below threshold)

Legal age of consent for a boy in Florida is 16. If he'd only held back a little while longer...

IN SPANISH ONLY (PRACTICE)<... (Below threshold)


1.) It is true that kids in... (Below threshold)

1.) It is true that kids in that age group love to brag and tell stories, whether they are true or not. It is obvious that there was some sort of relationship because of all the details the boy told police.

2.) A beautiful young woman as my teacher...I'd be thinking of nailing her every second of the day.

3.) The kid must be hung..why else would she want him?

dammmnnnn... i wish i was t... (Below threshold)

dammmnnnn... i wish i was that kid.

Qual o endereço desta profess... (Below threshold)

Qual o endereço desta professora ?

Who what's to start a fan c... (Below threshold)
Matt McIntyre:

Who what's to start a fan club for Ms. Lafave? After she gets out who knows we could all get fucked. If you want to, e-mail us [email protected] We already have 10 people and I just got the idea this morning.

PS- WHY TELL? Send the boy to jail for being a pussy.


I find myself in a similar ... (Below threshold)

I find myself in a similar situation at my academy. I'm a 23 year old male teacher who's romantically involved with a 14 year old schoolgirl.

I like to say "old enough to bleed from your pussy, old enough for me."

No shit. Why'd the kid say ... (Below threshold)

No shit. Why'd the kid say anything? He was living a van halen video...

What I wouldn't give for or... (Below threshold)
billy bob:

What I wouldn't give for oral sex from my teacher.

ok.... Who the hell had tea... (Below threshold)

ok.... Who the hell had teachers that looked like that..... I know that i didn't..... For my kids sake, I'm moving to Florida

Some of you people talk lik... (Below threshold)

Some of you people talk like you have never had sex with a fine lady and its funny actually, most of you would have sex with children yourselves i bet or anything that moves, pathetic.

I have had sex with a few f... (Below threshold)
Napoleon Dynamite:

I have had sex with a few fine ladies in my time but not with my married 23 year old teacher when I was 14. She has to have something wrong with her if these allegations are true. I feel bad for her husband because he has got to be mortified and the kid because of her predatory tactics and abuse he has sustained. But I think the kid will be ok. I mean it's wrong and disturbing but honestly he's a little stud. I wouldn't be surprised to see his family file a lawsuit against the Board of Ed.

She is a rolemodel to all g... (Below threshold)

She is a rolemodel to all good looking teachers out there!

Go teacher-student relationships!

I went to school with Debbi... (Below threshold)

I went to school with Debbie at East Bay. She was bisexual then, and Owen, Her husband was my high school sweetheart. We broke up once because of her, now look at her. The grass isn't always greener... just sleezier.

The New York Times Magazine... (Below threshold)

The New York Times Magazine, May 30th, has an article about teen relationships i.e. many (most?) have opposite sex “friends with benefits.” So you won’t have to guess that means sex as casually as shaking hands. Barely a week goes by when there isn’t a story about young people thinking that oral sex isn’t sex. That being said I’m fed up with hypocrites.

The age of consent is too high. Puleeeez don’t even start to tell me that these young teens don’t “know” what they are doing. If they are out of elementary school, if it is consensual and lovingly performed I can’t in a real world find much to worry about. Fun sexual encounters are FUN and emotionally expanding and invigorating, make you want to do your homework to the best of your ability every single night and often the only down side occurs when hypocrites find out and then run around like chickens with the heads cut off screaming, “Victim, victim.” Oh, that I couldn’t have been and could be often so “victimized!”

I got busy with the "drill"... (Below threshold)

I got busy with the "drill" team instructor in high school. She was also a Laker girl. I didn't tell a soul until after graduation.

It is every boy/guys dream to have the hottest female around. That's no surprise. But it is kind of creepy that this ultra hot 23 year old would pick a 14 year old.

I can't wait to see the interview to see what she was thinking.

We can only hope Debra will... (Below threshold)

We can only hope Debra will consider a magazine or internet posing gig to help pay for her legal fees. Live web cams straight from her Florida Jail?

Where were teachers like th... (Below threshold)

Where were teachers like this when I was in middle school. My teachers were all fat old bats who I wanted nothing to do with.

How much do you think Hustl... (Below threshold)

How much do you think Hustler and Penthouse pay her for the exclusive "Hot for Teacher" Photo shoot.

Got to thinking… now how mu... (Below threshold)

Got to thinking… now how much do you think this police “investigation” cost the tax payers? A few years ago some European nations were thinking about issuing an “advisory” because tourists were being so often and brutally victimized in Florida. Yet, with all the armed robbery, killing and maiming that goes down every single day the police had the man power and resources to get a wire tap, do several interviews and go on a sight seeing tour with the victims.

Myself, well, I think it was worth about $17.63! Detective goes to her office and says, “Here’s the report we got from this kid’s mother. Whatever you might think, what you’re doing is against the law and you are looking at X years in prison. I want you to cool it. Permanently. I’m not kidding. And I’ll have my eye on you.” And you know he would have his eyes all over her.

She is looking at jail time. JAIL! How about, instead, 10,000 hours of community service in an area where he as a propensity anyway. She could go door to door with the offer, “Hi, my name is Deb and I’m a member of the Bush Whackers, a sexually oriented group like the Peace Corp. May I offer any assistance to you tonight?” Now that’s what I would call community service!

I'm jealous I'm really jeal... (Below threshold)

I'm jealous I'm really jealous I'm totally jealous! and people the fact that we all would love to be the kid it's because it's a great fantasy you know? I mean fuck your own teacher in the back of her car? that sounds so fucking sexy it's great. Somehow I gotta get a hold of her tell her I wont tell nobody.

I hope, for her phycologica... (Below threshold)

I hope, for her phycological sake, that the kid is like 6'-0, 190 and a chiseled athlete type... I've seen 14 year olds that you would swear was 18. What she did was way outta bounds (for 2004) but the flesh is weak. Acting on a strong sexual fantasy is just plain stupid on her part. I bet she has had any guy she has ever wanted her whole sexual life and at 23 maybe she just hasn't matured past that way of thinking yet.

I hope, for her psycologica... (Below threshold)

I hope, for her psycological sake, that the kid is like 6'-0, 190 and a chiseled athlete type... I've seen 14 year olds that you would swear was 18. What she did was way outta bounds (for 2004) but the flesh is weak. Acting on a strong sexual fantasy is just plain stupid on her part. I bet she has had any guy she has ever wanted her whole sexual life and at 23 maybe she just hasn't matured past that way of thinking yet.

Finally that MJ Morning Sho... (Below threshold)

Finally that MJ Morning Show webpage is accessible. WOW! Nice pictures. What was she thinking? Hey Mr. LaFave, if your reading this, ever heard of Redclouds.com? I know you have some nudie Honeymoon pictures right there saved on your harddrive, just go ahead and upload them, we'll all vote them pictures of the year!

not that i agree at all wit... (Below threshold)

not that i agree at all with the teacher, but.........if this 14 year old had killed someone (maybe a 23 yr old model looking teacher) in a cold blooded way, he would be tried as an adult..... hypocrisy. US is strange when it comes to age. Your not adult enough to drink until 21. The federal Government will train you to kill enemies at 17 (I was). If you murder, you could be an adult at age 12. But if you’re an American that’s ‘Lost” at age 20 in the Taliban, shooting American soldiers, your just a “confused kid”. Or if you’re a girl at 19 that puts together a crazy kidnapping plan to make her boyfriend jealous, Audrey Seiler 20 at the UW Madison Campus, you could be left off the hook because she’s not old enough to understand what she did. Now you tell me what age is the right age? Is the 14 year old an adult or is the 23 year old just a confused kid?

Very good eire... (Below threshold)

Very good eire

All I can say, is leave the... (Below threshold)

All I can say, is leave the girl alone and worry about yourself. It's nobody else's business and it's not like this is the 1st time this has happened. Everyone makes mistakes. It was consentual, remember, so let her be. It's between her and her husband, noone else and she is beautiful. There's nothing freaky about her lashes, she's a godess! Go Debra!

Hey who cares who she tappe... (Below threshold)

Hey who cares who she tapped. If they both wanted it, so be it. Biggest thrill that boy had, I bet.

Because she's a beautiful p... (Below threshold)

Because she's a beautiful person a lot of people want to believe she couldn't have done it. The men are thinking "Why would he tell, he's lucky" however, put your 14 yr. old daughter in the place of that boy, w/ a hot teacher, would you consider her "lucky"?

If you're going to brag abo... (Below threshold)

If you're going to brag about the hot teacher, don't do it at your cousin's house where the cousin's MOM can hear it and might be suspicious. He obviously liked it, probably wishes he kept his mouth shut now, but like someone said earlier, 14 year olds can be stupid.

We supposedly take the “per... (Below threshold)

We supposedly take the “perp” to court because we're trying to protect the victim. We're concerned over, in this particular type of case, the "child's" psychological well-being. We know that there was no physical torture. We know that the "child" was a willing participant that acted independently to see the teacher by calling her. Now the question arises.......... do we prosecute for the "child’s" sake or for our own roman need to be in the coliseum? Will this kid in particular be more scarred and damaged from the fact (1) that he made it with the "Hot" teacher at age 14 or with (2) the media blitz, police questioning, family break downs, court cases and the never ending "your the victim.....no really you are the victim...........no, I know you don't think so now, but I'm here to smash that idea into your head so that ........your the victim" support? Makes you think. Now that only pertains to this case or similar two party willing participants of reasonable age. If it was my son at 14, I would put the kibosh on it myself, or see what I could have done by the police behind the scenes. Then at 18, I would slap him on the back and tell him that it never works out that easy and quit thinking it will!

Posted by: Marvina at June... (Below threshold)

Posted by: Marvina at June 30, 2004 07:50 PM >>

You’re right Marvina, more hypocrisy. Once upon a time I dated a woman who told me that at 15 she slept with her teacher. Her mother found out and went to see the teacher and as it was related to me by the woman, her mother said, “I gather you are sleeping with my daughter. I have a question for you. Are you treating her well?” I almost fell over when she told me that and my respect for her mother was instantly as wide and deep as the ocean.

I remember reading at some point that Margaret Mead said that a good arrangement would be an older person with a younger person. A perfect way to do things, then at least one person would have some perspective when it came to problems.

I apologize Marvina for the round-about way of answering your question: Yes, I would consider her lucky. And so would a majority of American women it would appear. If you pick up and scan a few pages of any “romance novel” you will find that they are within a pubic hair of the so called pornography I enjoy on the ASSM site and all the stories revolve around wild, inappropriate sex… sex… sex… Of course with real life sex there is always a factor with this group that invalidates said intercourse. I’m gagging on the whole hypocritical, sexually dysfunctional, profoundly sex negative game this society plays.

Eire, darn it you had my complete agreement until this last part.
Posted by: eire at June 30, 2004 08:36 PM >>

Maybe, just maybe now, it doesn’t deserve a “kibosh”. Maybe, just maybe now again, it would be the instructional adventure of a life time for him. And I can’t believe looking at the world and the people around me that 18 is any magic number in any way. I have to say that rather than telling him to forget it instead I would hope (never being able to say of course how one might react until the situation actually arises in your life) that I would tell him to enjoy every moment of it and store the memories away for all glory is fleeting.

I also would hope that I would have the perspective to make an appointment with the woman and discuss the pitfalls into which this little relationship could fall. Then I’d have a talk with her with my son in attendance and if I thought it wasn’t a fundamentally corrosive situation I’d stand down but keep right in close communication with all attendants—the last thing I’d want is to loose touch with developments. And my son would be instructed as to how to treat her respectfully and to expect respect in all ways in return.

If I got any, ANY, inkling of anything pathological then there would be a private investigator, and in short order a case laid on her desk with consequences enumerated in detail if she should peruse my son any further or if I should hear of her with any other minor.

Ok, well, for the person wh... (Below threshold)

Ok, well, for the person who said well would you like it if it was your 14 year old daughter, well, unfortunately there is an inherant double standard...if we take a look at the basic act of sex it is for the male to have an orgasm to pass the genes and the female to get impregnated, its as simple as that, just the facts of life folks, I mean really people we are just animals. So, no, I would prefer for my 14 year old daughter to not get impregnated by some adult male who is just trying to orgasm, as ultimately the female bears the burden of child birth and raising which at 14 could fall on her parents.

If you read the arrest affidavit, the "victim" even tells his cousin after the one occasion that occured while the cousin was driving that "it was awesome"---what a victim, can't wait to see the jury/judges reaction to that. On that occasion he was "on top" as well, I guess she was victimizing him. Can I be a victim please?

The affidavit even refers to the cousin as a "victim", go figure, that poor kid is scarred for life!!! By what they both refer to as the "hot teacher", it is not the case of an old monster of a nun threatening expulsion.

Interesting enough, there is a contradtiction between the cousin and the other "victims" statements, on the one occasion the cousin says the teach had taken off her capri pants, where as the victim states she was wearing a sun dress, I know if i was either one of them I wouldn't have forgotten that detail...

to follow up on my first pa... (Below threshold)

to follow up on my first paragraph above posing a perspective on the double standard, or what some are calling a "hypocrisy"...well, a 14 year old girl will not have the sense or wisdom on choosing a proper mate that may/would be willing to support her and her potential child, and as stated in my previous post the burden of child birth and raising falls on the mother just another fact of life. So if a 14yo female is taken advantage of by an adult male just wanting to orgasm, the parents of the 14yo girl could have the burden of raising that child which no parents want, hence the laws to prevent such behavior....now the opposite, if an adult female, as in the case of this teacher, she should have some common sense on picking a mate that could provide for her potential child if she felt she was not capable of providing on her own as the burden is on her, so in the scenario of the tampa teach, the male gets to orgasm, and the only potential burden of a child (which falls on the mother) is brought upon the adult female by herself.

Now this type of logic breaks humans into the animals we are...however, the laws are the laws and as the tampa teach has proven, no matter what logic you use, if you don't respect the law you are going to pay in the end...

If you ask me the kid was l... (Below threshold)

If you ask me the kid was lucky. She is soooo HOT!!!!

For Watzit........My... (Below threshold)

For Watzit........
My perspective is this.
(1) a good education at 14 doesn't mean sleeping with the teacher.
(2) Me condoning the behavior would put me in jail.
(3)Life is way to short to be dating a head case no matter how hot
(4)this isn't the type of girl I want my son to bring home his mom.........my wife's a teacher and she would kill her! Then mom would have her picture on the internet...
kibosh, kibosh, kibosh, kibosh!

well i dunno if it happened... (Below threshold)

well i dunno if it happened, but i think the 14-year old kid needs a good slap to the head for being so stupid either way. in one case he's lying, and the other case he was living every 14-year old boy's dream and then he fucked it up.

the only thing she's guilty of is picking the wrong kid, i'd gladly have traded places with him when i was 14.

All I can say is I wish I h... (Below threshold)
Hot for teacher:

All I can say is I wish I had a teacher like this when I was 14! Most of them looked like the wicked witch!


meu, essa professora é muito ... (Below threshold)

meu, essa professora é muito gata, se fosse eu naum denunciava nada e ficava quieto

Nossa cara olha o garoto es... (Below threshold)

Nossa cara olha o garoto está comendo professora e ainda processa ela onde este mundo vai parar hem, o a cabeça do de baixo do cara não pensou direito antes de entrar no periferico vaginal da professora né.
Então agora que ganha dinhero nas costas da mulher.
Se liga tem que processa é este garoto.

God damn how could that dum... (Below threshold)

God damn how could that [email protected]# talk. I mean look at her, she is fuking hot. You have to be on some serious crack to even tell your parents that your having sex with a hot 23 year old chick. Man seriously what an idiot hahaha he fucked it up indeed.

IF YOU'RE AN EMOTIONALLY DI... (Below threshold)



What's the big deal? If I w... (Below threshold)

What's the big deal? If I were a dying 14 year old, and the Make-A-Wish people asked me what I wanted as a last wish--it wouldn't be a trip Disneyland. This story would pretty much be it.

yo for real, the kid is sma... (Below threshold)

yo for real, the kid is smart. I got a friend who had sex with his counsler at a home for bad kids when he was 15. His counselor was 35.He sud th roup home and got 75,000 aftr lawyer fees and taxes.....my rien gets like 2000 then 5000 then 10000. It goesup like every 4 years.....now for everyon tht saidthe kid was stupid you might wana rethink that one.

Yo Fred,Learn how ... (Below threshold)

Yo Fred,

Learn how to freaking type before you post someting! Thanks!

Meu, essa cara é muuuito boio... (Below threshold)

Meu, essa cara é muuuito boiola mesmo..
Essa Professora é muuuuuuuito Gata.
Estive pesquisando algumas fotos pessoais dela e ela é muuuuito linda..
Se fosse no Brasil, esse boiola seria processado e indiciado e, ela teria um contrato com uma revista para posar nua mais um programa de televisão com certeza...
É, cada um escolhe a sentença que merece mesmo.
- "Ahhhh se fosse comigo..."

Haha. Yes, she is a looker... (Below threshold)

Haha. Yes, she is a looker. The problem with it though is that despite our fantasy lives, 14 is too young for anyone to be having sex, esp. with a significantly older person. Also, she was a teacher. She had a position over him that could affect his future. While I don't doubt he was willing, he was also too young to decide whether or not the situation he was in was one he wanted to get into. This is not so much about whether or not he would have fun binking her-- obviously, he would. This was about whether the two parties were on the same "moral plane" of decision-making and relational context. They weren't, and that's the problem. This is why it's wrong for adults to have sex with minors and also why teachers shouldn't be having affairs with students and vice versa. Getting off in and of itself has nothing to do with it.

Still, I would diddle her in a second myself. :)

Ok, a lot of people have as... (Below threshold)

Ok, a lot of people have asked why she would want a 14 year old. Well the most common reason for child molestation is trying to recapture lost innocence. That’s right, she was probably molested as a child herself. Most molesters are trying to recapture that innocence that was taken away from them. People don’t believe that this can be traumatic for a male. They are wrong. This woman has tainted his trust in authority figures; he most likely feels shame (especially if it was voluntary). Most traumatic is that he will probably never have a woman that is so sexy, hot and exciting again in his life. Between the shame and comparing every sexual experience against this one; his future reality will always come up short.

Reading the internet news r... (Below threshold)

Reading the internet news reports more, seems it was the dude's 15 year old cousin who blew the whistle by telling his mom, who called the little stud's mom. At that age, there's no way he's gonna keep his mouth shut. Hell he could have gotten her as a babysitter if they would have planned it out. "Hey Mom and Dad, how bout you guys taking a weekend cruise, don't worry about me, i have a sitter lined up, who can help me with my summer reading list"
What do you think the stud's dad is thinking? Guess he doesn't have to give that father/son discussion anymore.

I suppose this is only a cr... (Below threshold)
see you auntie:

I suppose this is only a crime to those who believe it is.

Written or not, it seems most males will find this interesting, and even arousing.

The laws in place for this exist primarily for the older male to younger female scenario, which people usually take a much more serious and "that's not right" stance.

The reason for this makes me think. I come to a rather flat and obvious conclusion. Males are much much much less likely to enter into a sexual situation and become a victim than females.

This kid knew what he was doing. This kid WANTED this. This kid was proud of it. No mental damage was likely done to him. In fact, I believe he'll brag about this for the rest of his life. The hormones are raging and he’s probably feeling fine.

How often would you see the reverse be true (younger female, let's say 14, and a 23 year old male, and she's just as ravenous as the 14 year old male, bragging in all)? It may happen, but it would be a 1% of the time kind of thing.

So what do we have here? A wet dream, that’s what.

ahaha, this is so interesti... (Below threshold)

ahaha, this is so interesting. i'm a twenty-something female myself, and i would do her too.

when i was in high school, there was this hot teacher/coach that i knew/had, and we were really close, along wiht my best friend at the time. The three of us used to hang out together all the time. Practice, workouts, email/phone conversations all night, classes with him, being his TA (teacher assistant), getting rides with him after school, and so on.

He was 29 at the time (which was the same age as my sister, so I was used to hanging out with people that age), and the two of us were mature for our age, (at 17, a lot of people thought I was 22, i act older than my age), so of course, it just seemed natural. It naturally evolved from friendship into potential interest that was reciprocated.

Then some idiots noticed how much the three of us were hanging out together, and reported it to the school.

On the day of my 18th birthday, I got dragged into the office along with him, and the school said that we had to cease all contact with each other. I was sooooooo upset, because I had lost a person who had been a big part of my life that last year, and was basically one of the few friends that I had at school, so I felt like my world had been ripped into two. And on our grad night, which he was a chaperone at, we got into a screaming fight. So yeah...

My best friend, she managed to somehow stay out of it, and the two of them have happily lived ever after. I haven't heard from them in years, so I don't know what's been going on since then. I know he did get fired, and there was an investigation into their relationship the year after we graduated, because she became his assistant coach.

But still, it hasn't damaged me in any way. It was the school's fault and the stupid idiots who decided to make a big deal out of it, that ruined everything.

Sometimes I miss those days before the shit hit the fan...

... nonetheless, it was a c... (Below threshold)

... nonetheless, it was a crime. It should be punished as such.

I refer you to my post 3 comments up. This has nothing at all to do with whether or not the boy liked it. It has to do with the mental state of the (alleged) perpetrator. She knew she was 1. breaking the law and 2. doing something wrong to/with a minor (if she didn't know it, she should have).

Plenty of underage girls have sex with men and it is wrong that this happens. Men who do so are committing a crime, even if the girls enjoy what they are doing (and they do, apparently) It is still wrong, for the same reasons.

Other than a sexist 2x-standard here, there is no other factor involved here that differentiates a F-m from a M-f sex act (with lowercase meaning minor and uppercase meaning adult). That's all there is to it.

Look at this! <a href="http... (Below threshold)

Look at this! http://www.media43.com/demo3.html

Disguting. She struts around like a little princess at a wedding God knows who paid for for her and less than a year later she is milking a 14-YO boy's bone on a regular basis, living off her hubby's salaray and credit. She went to be a teacher why-- so she could commit stat. rape??

Guys, if you ever enteratain the ridiculous fantasy of a Snow-white princess-fairy-tale wedding and happily-ever after, just come back to see this video, then read the police reports. That'll keep you from making a big old mistake!

Debra rocks! We need to get... (Below threshold)

Debra rocks! We need to get rid of these ridiculous charges quick and get her set up with her own website. A brilliant way to grab publicity and get into business.

What drove her to do this a... (Below threshold)

What drove her to do this and commit this sex crime? We can all agree she could have had an affair with anyone her age.
1. Was she trying to get back at her hubbie? Probably not., if so, why not just go out to a happy hour after school one day?
2. When she saw this boy at that field trip, why did she single him out, other than looks, did he remind her of someone else whom she wanted but couldn't have at an early age?
3. Was it purely a pre-meditated act performed by a dark-confused person, someone who meant to confuse and harm a 14 year old boy because maybe one day, in her class, she saw a boy jerk off in front of her and she found it disgusting. Or just the opposite, maybe she saw some kid with a boner in his pants and it turned her on?
4. Did she just find out she couldn't have kids with Hubbie and wanted to get pregnant (from a Virgin??). Her sister was killed and I think was pregnant at time of accident. Up to her to give her parents some grandchildren. This is pretty far off and sicko I realize.

What im getting at is did she really have feelings for this kid, or did she maliciously perfom this crime? or combination of the two.

Nobody has perfect judgemen... (Below threshold)

Nobody has perfect judgement all of the time. We all make some DOOZY mistakes in our life. ALL OF US.Let's all just hope to God that they do not become national-news-scandalous-tabloid stories. Like this one.

One month ago, she was just a regular girl with problems like you and me .

Don't blame the boy! Any te... (Below threshold)

Don't blame the boy! Any teenage boy in his right mind would've done it


Don't blame the boy! Any te... (Below threshold)

Don't blame the boy! Any teenage boy in his right mind would've done it

a really unthankful stupid ... (Below threshold)

a really unthankful stupid boy :( ...for such hot thrilling experiences from the beautiful Debra, i'll seal off my mouth to keep such romantic experiences lasted at the longest possible. I wish that i'be the lucky boy, and with thankful mind for having such good times!!
What a beautiful goddess dreamed by all the *normal* men! poor Debra >>> innocent until proven guilty, folks!

Fan of Debra ;)

I came back to peek and saw... (Below threshold)

I came back to peek and saw all these interesting posts. I can’t staaaaaand it I have to get back in.

First of all the only thing that we KNOW is that if what has been reported actually took place that said acts have been placed in the “unlawful” category. They are placed in this category by state legislatures in a more or less thoughtful manner. My observations of the operations of several state legislative bodies over many years leaves me in a state of contempt, not to even mention the fact that I seriously doubt whether a single one of the first ten amendments to the Constitution would survive legislative assault if they could get their hands on them. “Just changing the Constitution to make everybody’s life better folks I’m sure you don’t really mind.”

A law. A law is made up by some group for some purpose. How about forcing everyone of a group to wear a yellow star or pink triangle? Anyone here want to put in a good word for those laws?

But this is different I’m sure I’ll be told and you’re right it sure is different.

“Too young,” I’ve seen posted a few times. Just exactly, exactly now, what is too young and too young for what exactly. I’ve had two conversations with high school girls in the last month, one seventeen and one eighteen. These are top students, intelligent and thoughtful, one aiming to be a doctor. They both related that sex in all categories, yup, all, is wide spread and common behavior. They said that, “At some point the same conversation comes up.”

“What’s that?” I asked.

“He or she asks the other, how far have you gone and how far do you want to go now?”

What a rational approach. I’m proud of them. And I have to conclude that pretending it doesn’t exist is simply a non-starter. Further, the discussion touches on birth control and disease prevention.

I believe a case can be made that lots is being done by lots of kids who are… too young! So the next question might be then what dare we allow as an age span between participants vis-a-vie this activity. According to some news articles an eighteen year old boy with a seventeen year old girl is a sex crime and he must register for the rest of his life as such. But let’s let that vector rest for a moment because I really want to go to what I think is the heart of this whole matter i.e. basic American contempt for pleasure. And not just pleasure but any sensual experience. Even when you are dying. It’s a fact that our doctors give the least amount of pain reducing drugs to dying patients—often not enough to alleviate the pain. Don’t want these boyos to kick off as addicts I suppose.

We work longer hours in this country than, I believe, any other in Western Europe. We have a lot of stuff, that’s good in a way. It’s not so good that when we go on vacation, jog, etc a whole lot of people will volunteer cheerfully that they are recharging their batteries or some such phrase so they can go back to work! I’m ready to say that a lot of people in this society (one that I truly love and am willing to defend with my life) release themselves to drugs but not to pleasure. If they knew how to release themselves to pleasure they wouldn’t remember drugs existed… well in my very unhumble opinion (grin).

So back to sex and the pleasures thereof… Who is willing to say that someone else is too young for the pleasure of what sex acts? The answer to that is just about everyone in this country knows the answer to that precisely and it trips off their tongue in an instant. That would be good and laudable if we functioned sexually well but we don’t. Last time I heard 1/3 of our women never have an orgasm, 1/3 do sometimes and the only the remaining 1/3 do all the time. If we were talking about hearing loss or ability to walk long distances it would be a national catastrophe but strangely the pleasure category doesn’t register. At one time Kaiser an HMO in California refused to provide Viagra for its subscribers… What the hell did sexual functioning have to do with quality of life?

Ah, but age differences. I can hear the big artillery rumbling into place. Is there any other area more significantly more important to happiness in life than good sex? Is there any other area of human endeavor where the least experienced teach the newest initiates? When learning to drive would you rather learn from Joe the expert, never had a citation or Joe, who thinks that DWI is something of a joke and has stackes of tickets? Hmm, tough choice. And no this is not the same as letting kids enter into legal contracts or not, this is a functioning area, one functions from birth. Masters and Johnson said, “Good sex is your birth right and it is as easy as blinking your eye.”

So… finally, at what age exactly would you, the more thoughtful posters, allow what pleasures and to whom and if I dare ask it… why?

Good post Whatzit.<b... (Below threshold)

Good post Whatzit.
Wish I can come up with an equally challenging point of view and opinion right now. But don't have one.
Was there anything in the news reports purporting that maybe she thought the boys were a tad older?
Did they lie about their age?
Maybe she thought they were both 16 or 17 making this gap narrower and possibly more plausible to have sex with the one stud.
She let the 15 year old escort them around Ocala, driving her car. Did she think he was older and allowed to drive, or having an underaged driver escort part of the adventure that turned her on?

She reminds me of that "Figured You Out" tune by Nickelback... "I like your pants around your feet
And I like the dirt that's on your knees
And I like the way you still say please
While you're looking up at me..."

My best guess is that she i... (Below threshold)

My best guess is that she is simply a sexual adventurer and I mean no pejorative by any of those words. Such people scatter diamonds (and heart ache upon occasion) as they maneuver through life.

I was twenty once, in college, in downtown Chicago with a buddy from school back when everyone wasn’t carded like crazy. Late at night we were leaving a nice little bar at O’Hare when a young woman gave me a stunning smile as we were at the door. Shy, I would have just smiled and gone on, but my buddy took me by the arm and ordered me to, “Get over there!” I did. She was on a lay over flight. Not terrifically experienced she held me in the palm of her hand sexually the whole night. Later, near morning when there was time for some talk she told me she was sixteen. A number with significance. But more significant, what a lady and what a gift of a magnificent night she gave to my shy young self. I would say that she was a sexual adventurer.

I read a book review many, many years ago written by someone who is/was peripherally a part of the royal family in England. Long story short she was staying at a sea side hotel when a man pushed his way into her room and fucked her cross eyed for two days. Barely saying a word he left and she had the character to admit that it was one of the singular experiences of her life. She was an old lady when she wrote the book and we let old ladies get away with a lot. (grin) Another sexual adventurer.

Debs, from what we know is not only a sexual adventurer but a loose cannon. She would have run off the tracks sooner or later acting in such a blatant way at cross purposes with her culture.

That being said I am not willing to turn her into a ‘witch’ and burn her at the stake for this action. I read in the paper today that a woman set fire to here apartment with her five kids in it and she gets five years probation!!!! Dan White kills the mayor and a supervisor in San Fran some years back and get eight years!!!!

No I can’t do it, I can’t send Deb away. A year’s probation and revoking of her license is all I can sleep with. And a talk, she needs a good talking to. “Honey, sprinkle that angel’s dust far and wide but not with people who will get you in Dutch with the law, OK?”

I’m not against there being laws regulating some sexual conduct. But is it too much to ask that they be rationally based? Even within out Western Culture there is a wide variance with our take on sex. When I lived in Denmark, the age of consent I think was fourteen, I used to ask my girl friends how old they were the first time—sorry but I’ve always been the male Dr. Ruth! (grin) An amazing number of times they said they were eleven at the launching of their sexual careers. Usually in those little tool sheds that their parents erected on the postage stamp sized gardens that are so dear to Danish hearts. Their stories were related with smiles and chuckles unlike many told in this country, furtive, painful and unpleasant.

The article that I alluded to in the New York Times in my first post actually reminded me of my time in Sweden wherein the government had adverts saying that providing sexual release for a companion was a “friendly thing to do.” And by God I can tell you it was a very friendly thing to do indeed!

Life is hard and there is only God (what ever you might or might not understand that to be) and the pleasures we can mine during our existence. So when you decide to steal pleasure from someone based on age, what exactly should that age be? Not the most moronic portion of the group but for the higher end people and what vectors of pleasures do you have the right, not power, but right to steal? Of course it’s all a moot question since every indication that I have the kids a sailing along with their own rules doing pretty good actually.

Hey, by the way that song looks like one I could like a lot! LOL

So… finally, at what age... (Below threshold)

So… finally, at what age exactly would you, the more thoughtful posters, allow what pleasures and to whom and if I dare ask it… why?

Well, I put the age at 18 for both sexes. People under 18 shouldn't be having sex with people over 18. To the day.

Why? Well, there has to be uniform cutoff at some point where the law considers it illegal or not illegal to have sex with someone based on their age and the other's age. Otherwise, who knows whether or not it'll be "OK" to have sex with a minor person or not? Just 'cause somone looks like they are 'old enough' to have sex does not mean it's OK for them to do so -- with an adult.

This is not about being anti-pleasure or prudish. Believe me, I like schnocking as much as anyone else, probably moreso! It's about enforcing standards that protect minors from experiences they are not ready for. That a given 14-YO is ready for sex yet even with an adult is irrelevant. If there is no enforced age cutoff standards, basically, where does it end? Is it Ok for an adult then have sex with a 10-YO who appears to be ready to do so and willingly does so? Or an 8-YO? Or a 6-YO?

See, there has to be a legal standard that is enforced *regardless* of the sexes of the adult and the minor. Otherwise, it's all up for grabs (literally).

That being said I am not... (Below threshold)

That being said I am not willing to turn her into a ‘witch’ and burn her at the stake for this action. I read in the paper today that a woman set fire to here apartment with her five kids in it and she gets five years probation!!!! Dan White kills the mayor and a supervisor in San Fran some years back and get eight years!!!!

Oh, I totally agree. There is a huge 2x-standard when it comes to how people are treated as far as the crimes they commit goes. The one factor most likely to result in a person being put away for a crime is their sex. Men are far more likely to be prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced to time than women for the same offense. That "mother" who set light to her apartment and killed her kids, like so many other so-called "mothers", should have been put away for years. But society is ready and willing to let women commit all manner of crimes, yet even vs. their own children, and excuse it. Men do not have the option (nor should they) of killing their children, spuses, etc. with the near-impunity the way women have.

Which leads us back to this case. That "Debs" is a female has a huge influence on public opinion. That she is attractive makes it moreso. If she were a he, you can be sure few people on this board would be calling for leniency. They would want the man killed, castrated, jailed, etc. Well, that'd be overkill too, as well as would not punishing "Debs" for what she did.

Anyone who has sex with a minor should get into legal trouble that substantially inconveniences their lives. People caught DUI more than once seem to get into more trouble than women who commit stat. rape (like this one) or who kill their kids or husbands. That is wrong. But the sex of the people involved should not be part of the formula. Stat. rape like this should start at one year in jail (felony conviction) and then go up depending on the age of the minor in question and the nature of the rel'p between them and the adult.

But I do hope "Deb's" husband does not hesitate to file for divorce if he has not already done so. He does not need this statutory rapist/whore in his life anymore.

Just read on FoxNews, "Debs... (Below threshold)

Just read on FoxNews, "Debs" could be sentanced up to 15 years per 5 counts she's being charged for. Wow, thats some serious time. Hopefully she won't be lonely, surrounded by female fans. Maybe her jury of her penises, oops, I mean peers, will all be men, and go easy on her.

Maybe Bill Clinton can get her a pardon as long as she agrees to help endorse his new book and read to illiterate prison immates as part of her community service.

What makes this more serious and tabloidish is she is/was a teacher. If she was say, still in college, intern, stripper, would she have had less exposure this past week and possibly do less time?

Well, I think I already ans... (Below threshold)

Well, I think I already answered this question in my two posts above, scroll up to reread.

The laws, in my opinion, are there not to deprive individuals from the joys of orgasm, but to help parents from having to support there underage childrens babies, or help prevent there young daughters from getting pregnant. Women have the responsibility to give birth and raise there child, if I had a 12-17 year old daughter and she got pregnant, ultimately I could be shelling out the money to take care of some other mans baby. Since young girls are naive, and incapable of picking a mate that wants them as a wife and mother of there children, they are vulnerable to being taken advantage of by men that just want an orgasm. Well, the majority of the voting and lawmaking public and the government do not want to support the babies of young/naive girls because they were impregnated not by someone that wants that young girl as a bride/mother of there children but because that man wanted to take advantage of that young/naive/curious girl just for there orgasm.

The fact of the matter is, yes humans are capable of having children at young ages, in fact in victorian time and I'm sure in the 1700-1800s marriage and child birth was common before the age of 20 (granted life spans were shorter too) and I think it does occur lawfully in some foreign cultures or african tribes, however people during those times and in those places had/have sex with the understanding the women could get pregnant, and the men were/are held accountable and were willing to support that mother and child. That is not the society we live in today in america. Although there may be honest men out there that would take a young bride and support there child, the government has decided there are more evil men out there that would take advantage of young women just for there own orgasm, hence sticking the young girls parents or the government with the bill for there daughters baby. So the laws were made or they get adjusted and all are effected.

However, in my opinion to explain the "double standard" for an "underage" male to have sex with an adult female, well, that adult female bears the burden of supporting that child, and as an adult she should be able to conciously make that decision and have that understanding that a male at the age of 14-18 will not make a good father or be able to provide for that child, so she brings that burden on herself. Hence, there is a reason there is this percieved "double standard" when some of the guys here are saying hey the guy should be allowed to do this, or, if it was my son i'd pat him on the back.

BREAKING NEWS!!!!T... (Below threshold)


The teach didn't realize that she was breaking the law. Apparently when she stated that "she was turned on by the fact that what she was doing was not allowed" she was referring to the fact that the student was black. OUTRAGEOUS!!!

So… finally, at what age ex... (Below threshold)

So… finally, at what age exactly would you, the more thoughtful posters, allow what pleasures and to whom and if I dare ask it… why?
Well, I put the age at 18 for both sexes. People under 18 shouldn't be having sex with people over 18. To the day.
Why? Well, there has to be uniform cutoff at some point where the law considers it illegal or not illegal to have sex with someone based on their age and the other's age. Otherwise, who knows whether or not it'll be "OK" to have sex with a minor person or not? Just 'cause somone looks like they are 'old enough' to have sex does not mean it's OK for them to do so -- with an adult.
This is not about being anti-pleasure or prudish. Believe me, I like schnocking as much as anyone else, probably moreso! It's about enforcing standards that protect minors from experiences they are not ready for. That a given 14-YO is ready for sex yet even with an adult is irrelevant. If there is no enforced age cutoff standards, basically, where does it end? Is it Ok for an adult then have sex with a 10-YO who appears to be ready to do so and willingly does so? Or an 8-YO? Or a 6-YO?
See, there has to be a legal standard that is enforced *regardless* of the sexes of the adult and the minor. Otherwise, it's all up for grabs (literally).
Posted by: Matt at July 2, 2004 01:24 PM

6-YOs are a strawman I’ve already addressed that.

The case I mentioned about the 17 year old and the 18 year old went like this. This couple both under 18 had been going together for a couple of years and were sexually active (what a sterile description… they were fucking each other’s brains out). The boy turns 18 and the parents of the girl got pissed off at him for something else entirely and called the police and sure enough he is now a life long sexual deviant. As the Church Lady would say, “Now isn’t that a special way to treat a young life in a so called liberal democracy?”

You say “to the day.” Do you realize that you would be creating sexual predators—because who else would have sex with an under age person—out of the male or female member of every single “couple” in the US when one or the other’s 18th birthday roles around? What would the motto be… be a loving, responsible, monogamous couple, and one of you goes to jail on their 18th birthday. What would be the birthday present of choice… a file? Do you realize that we are talking about the lives, the LIVES, of millions of people here who have hurt no one in any way what so ever. What would be your incarceration point of choice; a gulag or a concentration camp!

“Hey, what’s that huge barbwire enclosed camp of kids over there? Those are rapists. We have some special Sargents of Sin who go around and one hour after a kid turns 18 they smell his/her underwear (now wouldn’t that be a job descriptions for the “morally special”) and if they smell a certain way, we KNOW and they GO! G. Orwell is spinning in his grave to have missed a book on this one.

Why indeed does there have to be a uniform cut off? Why does it have to be 18? We have, with exceptions, the highest consent ages in all of Christendom. Do our children have lest character than all other children in our Western culture? I’ve known dozens and dozens of people OVER 18 who I didn’t think could handle sex but a date occurs and they are suddenly empowered.

Is it too much to ask, I’ll ask again that the law be rational and NOT arbitrary. I am unable to support arbitrariness in any vector of my life, including the law. Surely you’re not going to tell me that the purpose of law is to be able to use it to put an 18 year old in jail for continuing to have consentual sex with your daughter BECAUSE you got pissed off at him on some other matter. Please say it isn’t so Shoeless Joe.

All other countries in our Western culture limp along somehow with lower consent ages. How do they do it? How by the way do they also have fuller more functional sex lives? I was talking to a lady from England today and I asked her what surprised her the most when she first came to this country. First, she mentioned that her first touch down was Las Vegas and all the lights seemed impossible. But secondly, she snorted derisively was our sexual repression. So, I’ll ask again how do all these other societies function without “it” being grabbed? What will happen if responsible sex takes place between people of a variety of ages—and irresponsible sex will have penalties just like any other irresponsible behavior. Please delimitate it because you’re coming from a universe into which I have no view.

How about Sonny and Cher. Cher was 16. And there was another couple, a political couple, whose name I can’t remember who was waaaay under age. But Cher… God, help us, if her common sense were dynamite she wouldn’t be able to blow a tampax out of a piss ant. If common sense were the deciding factor I’m voting against Cher ever having sex.

But it doesn’t just stop with this age thing, the Legions of Decency go on and on. On most college campuses professors are not allowed to date students… ANY students, not those in their class. Arthur Schlesinger, you may recognize the name he being one of our preeminent historians and public figures, married one of his students. He asked in an essay a few years ago, “Well, now after 35 years of marrage what am I supposed to do give her back?’

Someone once said, “I’d rather deal with the wicked than a puritan, the wicked sometimes sleep.” Ah men brother.

But just for the sake of argument, would you, Matt, go for an age of consent of 17?

But I do hope "Deb's" husband does not hesitate to file for divorce if he has not already done so. He does not need this statutory rapist/whore in his life anymore.
Posted by: Matt at July 2, 2004 02:03 PM

A “whore” but of course, now that IS special. The funny thing is I like whores and sluts too. By my definition, possibly unique, a W or S is a woman who fully and unashamedly embraces her sexuality. A lady, and I mean lady in EVERY sense of the term, who doesn’t allow sniveling little shits to steal her sexuality. It is hers… by God, to do with as she pleases. Because buddy I’m fed up with this idea of “I’m a female” and you the man has to take complete responsibility for every step of our beginning sexual odyssey because if I showed any initiative too soon at all I’d be a whore or a slut and tst, tst, that just wouldn’t do.

But the subject I’d really like to discuss is the difference between the erotic and the sexual. I think there is a world of differnce. Any ideas out there is “postit land”?

Whatzit, YOU ARE WRONG!... (Below threshold)


Actually the age of consent varies from state to state. For instance the age of consent in NJ is 16, I know this as a fact.

It is a MISCONCEPTION that the age of consent is 18 across the country, the states set the age of consent, and the varying combinations such as age differentials that address the 18/17 year old scenario you give.

The confusion/misconception comes from the fact that the age to pose in pornography is 18 in all the states (I believe this is set by the federal govt.). So when you see these tapes that say "barely legal", it spreads this misconception that 18 is the legal age where females can consent...yet it is completely false, it is the age where they can legally be photographed/filmed in sexually explicit behavior. However I do believe some states are 18 for consent, but definitely not all, and probably not the majority.

You can do a web search for something like "age of consent law" or "statutory rape" and the name of the state you would like to find out the age of consent, a lot of times you can find the legal criminal codes on the state websites which should spell out the ages of consent in there various criminal code.

*sigh*... there simply is n... (Below threshold)

*sigh*... there simply is no justifying what she did. She committed stat. rape by knowingly engaging in sex with a minor, period. She should be punished regardless of her sex. That's all there is to it. And as for the argument saying that the boy has no burden to raise or support the child so it should be OK for an adult F to have sex with a minor M, all I can say is, that is false. Look at this case wherein the gov't established that fathers are resp. for children financially regardless of how old the father was at conception or under what circumstances the pregnancy took place (ie, stat. rape or not):


Again, minors are not on the same moral plane as adults and do not understand the implications of having sex with them. If you can't see this, then there isn't much else I can say I suppose to convince anyone. You either see it or you don't.

Here it is, The future webs... (Below threshold)

Here it is, The future website of Debra Beasley Lafave!

This is the location of the future website to follow the trial and read any information about what is going on with Debra Beasley Lafave.



Please feel free to visit the Yahoo group and talk about your thoughts on the issue.

Talk About The Teacher
[email protected]

*sigh*... there simply is n... (Below threshold)

*sigh*... there simply is no justifying what she did. She committed stat. rape by knowingly engaging in sex with a minor, period. She should be punished regardless of her sex. That's all there is to it. And as for the argument saying that the boy has no burden to raise or support the child so it should be OK for an adult F to have sex with a minor M, all I can say is, that is false. Look at this case wherein the gov't established that fathers are resp. for children financially regardless of how old the father was at conception or under what circumstances the pregnancy took place (ie, stat. rape or not):
Again, minors are not on the same moral plane as adults and do not understand the implications of having sex with them. If you can't see this, then there isn't much else I can say I suppose to convince anyone. You either see it or you don't.
Posted by: Matt at July 3, 2004 03:37 PM

Buuuuuut Matt, (grin), I didn’t justify what she, dear Debs, did. In two posts I said that the police and or a private investigator should put a stop to it. I said, in fact, that she was a loose cannon, certain to come off the tracks sooner or later. I did mention a punishment that I could sleep well over. I did, I did, I swear it… pant… pant!!

But going from Debs to ‘everyone’ I find a big step and I want to see some justification. After all we are talking about a felony conviction here, even if it’s only a year actually in jail, which means that person can never own a firearm, vote, become a teacher, probably a politician, a real estate agent and God help us a auto salesman and or a raft of other ones that don’t avalanche into my mind a the moment. Not mentioning the fact that they have to register as sex offender where ever they go. A serious matter I’m sure you will agree and so I think one that warrants a serious discussion of the needs, reasons and solutions.

Where did I say or anyone, unless I missed a post, say anything about a baby and or who should support it. In fact I’ve got a better one yet. In San Francisco a couple of years ago two lesbians wanted a baby. They got a donor to fill a turkey baster and one les squeezed off a ‘long round’ into the second… had baby… broke up and a judge said that the squeezOR had to pay child support to the squeezEE. That one kept a smile on my face aaaaaaall day. Yup, I agree, make a baby, make a payment every month.

Now Matt, I want to admit that you have been a better man than I have been in this conversation as far as gentlemanly behavior. That having been said may I please return to the problem at hand. In this instance “minors” and “adults”. As far as ‘convincing’ anyone, well, I say sure YOU do and I do because that’s the way a democracy works.

What should be the definition for “minor” and “adult”? Why isn’t anyone else’s opinion or culture or state (it is 16 here and I swear many years a go I read that Connecticut’s is 13) good as yours? And you didn’t address a very real problem i.e. a sexual couple where one becomes 18 and thus is an adult by legislative fiat AND a sex offender by fiat also, sort of like a little birthday present from your friendly state representative.

You say “punished reguardless of her age.” OK. And I say that it, the law, should be enforced, vigorously!!! What respect can you have for a law that is selectively enforced? Lets round up every single one of these young, newly minted, deviants who are rubbing their dirty parts against minors and lead them off in chains… sort of sending a message to the rest that they can have their fun but they will PAY for it by God! And I mean everyone by the tens of thousands… think of the new police jobs created… probations officers… corrections officers… judges… why we could wipe out unemployment in the country as we’ve ever known it. Then think how long this law will last on the books after some of the “in” kids get arrested on such bullshit charges having to tear up their acceptance to Harvard papers and fill out roommate preferences for San Quentin.

Further, you’ll have to admit it is arbitrary to say that a “minor” is an adult if he shoots bullets but on a non-cognitive plane when he shoot semen. Please tell me that disconnect makes you uncomfortable.

And as far as having respect for pleasure, please pick any ten countries you like and rank the US on a one to ten basis with them. Where would you put us? I breathlessly await a peek at this list.

Lastly, if the best the legislatures can come up with are arbitrary rules and reasons, no better than the discussion group down at Joe’s Bar and Grill why don’t they try earning their money by doing some honest work.

Just one last thing Debra, I know you appreciate my posts but please stop emailing me nude pictures I have enough trouble getting to sleep as it is.

Im an older ex of the 14... (Below threshold)
his friend:

Im an older ex of the 14 year old boy n i believe that hes a straight pimp! Hes always had older girls...and as for Debra--> good luck w/ your husband! You're very pretty and if your man isn't helpin you any, find it else where n get a new man!

Sheesh, everybody here give... (Below threshold)

Sheesh, everybody here gives up too easy. When you start to feel cornered by a questioner you should always ask questions in return. For example, someone should have asked me what I propose.

Alas, since we are talking about age numbers mine will be arbitrary also, but I’m willing to rationalize and defend mine with such substantives as I can muster.

How appropriate that this discussion takes place during our Independence day celebrations because some things, as a Libertarian, seem “self evident” to me. Further, we are the only society that I know of that has in one of its chartering documents the admonition for the “pursuit of happiness.”

That having been said I would like to say our bodies and by intimate extension our sexuality is sacredly ours only to be restricted or circumvented by society for the most important reasons. Sigh, and all societies do put some restrictions on sexual congress because said intercourse has caused as much upset as pleasure. (grin) Some societies are even in terror of human sexuality. Witness the Arab societies where they put women in those disgusting sacks. In that hot weather without deodorant can you even imagine… but if it was good enough for Napoleon… !!

So restrictions on sexuality should only be enacted if there is strong reason and the penalties should fit the “crime.” Everybody with me to this point, or no?

I think we agree that everybody has SOME restrictions on sexuality for the smooth running of their commonwealths so it is not beyond the pale that we should also. Specifically in this case, age of sexual consent. And let’s remember that we are not talking about ideal ages and circumstances but ages at which someone would be liable to suffer criminal consequences or not.

Considering all that I’ve read as of late I want to suggest 12 but I just can’t quit bring myself to feel easy with that number. Completely arbitrarily I can feel easier with 13 but not quit there either. But 14, now there is a number I can defend with some enthusiasm. It is the age of consent of a number of countries within our Western tradition and as far as I know has not caused any catastrophic disruptions of society. We have a world and decades of experience to review for this particular number and it all seems to pass muster.

So, I’ll put forward 14 as the age of consent.

Now for their partners; a much more difficult proposition. But I’ll propose a span of years, in this case five years. I choose five because my observations over many years suggests that that number has been validated by social acceptance and experience. It might be a little bit of a stretch when one is 14 but surely not an impossible circumstance to envision.

None of this means that wild women can run around pulling boy’s pants down and having at them—sigh, where are those women??? It means that when both parties have consented that there is no criminal culpability. Circumstances where the span is larger or an individual younger is handled on a case by case basis and directly and only dependent upon the damage caused. However, in such circumstance parents could get a restraining order on the woman involved—those insatiable whores.

As far as penalties… All draconian sentences are out in my mind. With what’s going down among our teens today I just can’t go for this ‘no action’ attitude and then some interesting ‘media’ event comes along and the heavy bombers are called in. No everybody gets the heavy bomber treatment or nobody.

Consentual sex out side the above proposed guide lines should not be punished in a more sever manner than murder or DUI for example. And DUI is a great example in fact. I find DUI to be 100% unacceptable, 100% of the time with the penalties being laughable.

First, time offenders are given probation and a ‘Come to Jesus’ talking to. Repeat offenders are not liable for more than first or second time DUI offenders. Of course orgasm would have to be counted just as Twinkies were in the San Francisco case. If the offender provided five or more orgasms per hour, per encounter, well then there would be no jail time and they would be given a certificate of merit by the mayor and set to work instructing at the local community college… “Pardon me, but please tell me again, how do you keep from loosing all feeling in your jaw after the first 45 minutes… ???? LOL

Well, what say you all, anyone agree or have you all fallen out of your chairs at these suggestions?

Part of the reason I want to have rational consent laws is for a defense of love. True love—the only ‘world class’ game we are likely to be involved with in our lives.. I know so much of what passes for love is hot pants and so many marriages are really “best I can get commercial negotiations”…

…for a moment
when you held me fast in your outstretched arms
I thought that the river and the sea and the sky did not flow…

but there is also love. And lovers must be free to do as they please.

And no I am not involved with an under age lover, my life is presently without any lover at all but I have memory.

And I want to say that I am sorry for my comment about nude photos in my last post. Debs, the assholes of the world have made your life hard enough as it is without my jesting words. I apologize.

But does no one have an opi... (Below threshold)

But does no one have an opinion on the difference between erotic and sexual. Am I posting to empty space here :(

---> Matthew Me... (Below threshold)
This should show how lame t... (Below threshold)

This should show how lame the laws are. If the two are having sex, and the teacher says stop or no, and the student continues, who is now guilty of rape or assault? The student? The teacher? Or both?

Also, for those who read the Bible, in the OT under God's law, both the woman and the student would have been stoned.

So none of that excuse the student is not in the same moral plane as the lady. He knew what he was doing. He helped facillate the meetings. He was on top of her (imagine the prosecutor saying she assaulted him sexually as he did her by being on top of her).

The law might say he holds no responsibility for this. The law might say he is a victim. The law says he might be assaulted.

The law in this case is wrong.

Not to mention not so long ... (Below threshold)

Not to mention not so long ago people used to be marry at around the student's age.

Not to mention not so long ... (Below threshold)

Not to mention not so long ago people used to be marry at around the student's age.

Debra Lafave has a criminal... (Below threshold)

Debra Lafave has a criminal defense attorney named John M Fitzgibbons. former federal prosecutor, who has argued many high-profile cases, both for the government as well a defense attorney.

will be interesting to see what his tactics are in this case.

he could go to trial and attempt to "prove" Ms Lafave's behavior was not 'lewd and lascivious'..

if he were to do so, recommend he move for a change of venue and get the trial moved to Sapulpa, OK with that judge with the AcuJack...

.. talk about "Trial of the Century"

Whaaaat? What about Sapula... (Below threshold)

Whaaaat? What about Sapula, OK and what is AcuJack?

These sound like things I should know about... Oh, yeah!

Oklahoma moves to oust a... (Below threshold)

Oklahoma moves to oust accused judge

OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — Oklahoma Attorney General Drew Edmondson is seeking the ouster of a Creek County judge who allegedly engaged in improper sexual conduct during court proceedings.
Edmondson filed a petition Wednesday with the state Court on the Judiciary against District Judge Donald D. Thompson of Sapulpa.

Thompson, 57, placed himself in a position where his female court reporter viewed him using a penis pump multiple times, Edmondson alleged in the petition. The document also alleges that a court reporter saw other improper sexual conduct on a number of occasions.

The trial division of the state Court on the Judiciary presides over complaints against state judges and has the authority to remove them from the bench.

Thompson couldn't be reached for comment Wednesday, but did deny the allegations during an investigation, Edmondson's petition stated.

Edmondson said he didn't think information alleged in the ouster petition against Thompson would result in overturning any trials where Thompson presided.

Among witnesses listed in Edmondson's petition are court personnel, the Sapulpa police chief and police officers who were present at a criminal trial in Thompson's court.

Edmondson accused the judge of violating the code of judicial ethics that requires high standards of conduct, among other things. He also alleged that Thompson committed an offense involving moral turpitude.

"The actions of Judge Thompson's in using a penis pump during trial where court personnel, witnesses and juries could either see or hear his actions at the least, constitutes conduct against good morals," Edmondson's petition stated.

In September 2000, Lisa K. Foster, court reporter for Thompson for 15 years, first started hearing a noise that "sounded like a blood pressure cuff being pumped up," the petition by Edmondson stated. Foster told investigators she witnessed the judge's sexual behavior "fifteen to twenty times."

Edmondson alleges that Thomspon fired Foster after hearing she had cooperated with the investigation against him.

Thompson admitted the penis pump was under the bench during a criminal trial on Aug. 22, 2003, and at other times but denied using the pump, Edmondson's petition stated.

"He testified the pump was a gag gift from a friend," the petition stated.

Thompson served six years in the state House of Representatives starting in 1975.

Shazam!!! We ought to all ... (Below threshold)

Shazam!!! We ought to all send him batteries. When a prisoner set Charlie Manson on fire in prison some years ago he received, over a period of week, 150 Bic lighters from police officers around the country.

I feel terrible for Debra's... (Below threshold)

I feel terrible for Debra's family and husband.

In a sense, Mr. and Mrs. Beasley have now lost both their daughters; one in a tragic car accident and the other under tragically scandalous circumstances.

I can imagine the Beasley family is reeling with fear, shame and guilt, right now. Fear that they'll loose Debra for the next 30 years, shame that her behavior is perhaps an example to others of her upbringing and guilt that any parent feels when a child is out of control.

Debra's public scrutiny is their private agony and it may better serve all of us to bear this in mind before posting scathing comments or sick jokes.

Some simple questions occur... (Below threshold)

Some simple questions occur to me… though not very easy ones and isn’t that always the way?

Since we are talking about sending people to jail, to jail, for God’s sake I think there should be some precision and predictability in the process.

For example I wonder what IS lewd and lascivious behavior--exactly? Since we’re talking about serious consequences here this is a serious question.

Who shall decide what it is? Is it ever appropriate, anywhere with anyone? Does the state have a say in this matter? Why, exactly? What shall the penalty be exactly, for what acts?

Would any of you be surprised that I believe that what I would feel comfortable with as far as behavior I also think would outrage, some (many) others? Just how much should I care about that? Should they be allowed to put me in jail because they are outraged at different behavior than they feel comfortable with?

And whre, Oh, yes, where this behavior takes place makes a difference, a big difference, but should it?

Over the years the Gay Rights parade in San Francisco became more and more… shall we say demonstrative???? About ten years ago or so it came to the point where dozens (hundreds) of homosexuals were fucking openly in the parade and on the street. This behavior had reached a point where the Gay leadership chastised the community in word and print. But no one was arrested, or jailed! No civic or church leader even said peep!

There is a park around the Exploritorium in San Fran. It is frequented by homosexuals and used as a sexual playground to the point that no one else in the neighborhood could use the park at night. But no one was arrested, or jailed! No civic or church leader even said peep!

I can assure you all with perfect certainty that if any of this had been done by heterosexuals the sky would have fallen.

So are we to understand that the most egregious sexual behavior is acceptable sometimes, somewhere and you’d better be damn sure you are in the right place at the right time or you are in trouble. Is that anyone’s idea of justice, “blind” or otherwise? Does anyone feel respect for that kind of lurching, arbitrary meting out of sanctions?

So tell me please what is lewd and lascivious behavior? Exactly?

Here’s another one. A few m... (Below threshold)

Here’s another one. A few months back a lady in Texas was arrested for giving a Tupperware kind of party but with the objects being, shudder, DILDOS, and other assorted instruction booklets and lubricants. ). This arrest raises so many questions as to almost boggle the mind (if it boggled the private parts would that be against the law?). The arresting officers said that so many batteries were going when they arrived it sounded like a 747 taking off and they knew something was wrong, terribly, terribly wrong, because all the women were smiling!! Just kidding (grin).

The other side of the coin as far as sex education in this country might be a book I saw at a used book store to be given to children to protect them from sexual exploitation. In the book none of the sexual parts were named but were given bathing suit associations. So the real message was that there are parts of our bodies so awful, so terrible to contemplate, disgusting and filthy that they couldn’t even be named—‘Course what’s really going down here is the old Rumplestillskin syndrome. So how were these children, after their instruction, to view pleasure that came from that portion of the body. And if anyone, adult or peer were to interact in ANY way with those portions of the body and seem to derive pleasure from it, what category would that cast that person into. Further, what would happen if the child him/her self found pleasure in the interaction, in what light could they possibly view themselves? But I digress… I’m a serial digressor…

Now what do you suppose these Texas women were charged with… Education for the use of body cavities for the pleasure of self and others. Would they have been candidates for arrest if they had felt pain instead of pleasure at the insertion of said toys?

So the legislature found the time to pass a law on this subject. The police found the resources to send out arresting officers, collect evidence and write reports. The prosecutors found the time to review all the data and make the determination to prosecute a crime of education in a private home, said perp having been invited for that specific purpose and all other attendees arriving at their own free will. Dear God in Heaven I’m speechless!!!!!!!!!!

Did the community erupt with righteous anger? Did they demonstrate in the streets by the thousands chanting, We’re fed up and we’re not going to take it anymore.” No they passively complained. I’ve been a frequent critic of Iraqis doing little more than passively complaining and foreseeing big problems for their chances for democracy because they are unwilling to do the “dirty work” of democracy. I’ve thought they valued it too little. What value do we put on our sexual liberty here?

NEWS!!! Tabloid links Bac... (Below threshold)

NEWS!!! Tabloid links Backstreet Boy Nick Carter to Debra Lafave in School sex scandal!!

Visit one of the following URLs to read the story's posting and to find a link to the story online.

Dont forget to post your thoughts on the latest findings of this scandal!


My mom says I should stop p... (Below threshold)

My mom says I should stop posting because I’m probably making too many adults uncomfortable. But…

I visited an online sexual discussion forum last night and I began to notice that if anyone had any sexual thoughts that were not of the most ‘vanilla’ kind a number of posters felt perfectly at ease telling them that they were “sick”. Now I know we’ve all been told that “it all depends upon the meaning of the word” sick but in this case I don’t think it’s too difficult to discern.

The labelORs want to, without having to dirty themselves in a free and open discussion, invalidate and “thing” the labelEEs. The sickees (I’m proud to proclaim charter membership by the way) are at once put outside the group and any serious consideration as far as their ideas and maybe even their physical well being. This is always after all a first step to preparing a group for gas chamber attendance.

Digressing for a moment, Thomas Sowell points out in one of his books that this moral “thinging” is something that Liberals do quit often. When you disagree with a Conservative they may think you are willfully disagreeing with them or not very smart but a Liberal past a certain point will consider you immoral because they consider that they hold all the moral high ground in society—and as the Church Lady would say, “Now isn’t that special”. I want to state again that I am a Libertarian and an independent thinker the latter of which the only one of its kind some people have ever met apparently and they labor mightily to put me in a labeled box. Liberal (and conservatives) are all smiles with me for quit a while and then we reach a subject and their faces turn red as they realize that I’m… I’m… SICK! LOL Hmm, digressing on a digression, how absolutely… sick of me!

But why do so many feel perfectly at ease calling other people sick for their ideas in the area of sexuality and they are seldom, hell, never, brought up short by the group. Why, in this area, is this ‘kill shot’ so effective? Why is one of the few wonders of life, that is my birth right after all, so vulnerable to being “snuffed”?

Some years ago the author and essayist Susie Bright gave a lecture (and Oh, boy with film clips) on the porno industry illustrating how conservative it is. The jist of the lecture was that porn (or at least then, some maybe ten years ago) is very formalistic with no deviations. There is “the suck, the fuck and the cum shot.” Close of scene, close of movie. There is no cross dressing anything fetish… blah, blah. Sitting there I realized that she was right and of course yawning boredom follows in said wake.

Porn, like most of our main stream movies by the way ( I saw an exception last night: The Clearing) is plot driven rather than character/story driven. It’s accused of being terribly made and it is but why wouldn’t it be when anyone with any talent would be labeled “sick” if they tried to create anything in this genre? I think it was Joel Steinberg who wrote a delightful book some years ago, Erotic by Nature, wherein he talked to some artists, some with recognizable name, and found that many had created erotic works of art but they were afraid to let them out for view because they, the artist, would loose standing at the very least and at the most be labeled… ‘come on you know the word… SICK! Oh, yeah.

Susie Bright—God love every single inch of her—wrote an essay in one of her books entitled provocatively “Why I Hate Marylyn Monroe”. She said that, tongue in cheek and sometimes in other lesbian oriented places (pant, pant), that she hated MM because she projected so much sexuality but she went around in her movies as if “she didn’t have a pussy”. But SB stumbled I’ll suggest in that she said that she thought if MM did allow as to owning such a thing men would rape her. May I respectfully disagree.

MM wouldn’t be in danger of being raped by proclaiming that she had such an orifice but she would make herself open to an honest approach from men for sex. A French lady I once knew said that it was little wonder that American men lied about sex so often, American women put so many barriers in the way of this area of intercourse. Think about this and the portrail of sexual interaction in our movies.

Hunks can proclaim having dicks but anyone who is not other worldly handsome (sigh, another group of which I am a charter member) can never make any sexual demands and if they do it is received with shock and disgust… “What, Melvin, you have a dick, and you want to do something with it with me?” And she is shocked because her projected self is one without a pussy. Leaping Lizards! Is she able to turn that attitude around on a dime, or condom, when she gets married? Often, apparently not where upon it is time to seek ‘help’ from a professional who spent his whole research career looking at rats in mazes.

Of course at some long drawn out part of the movie these men of a lesser God are often offered sex by the gatekeepers of all sexuality and when they are they are in turn shocked. “What, you want to do stuff with me. Wait a minute I know I was born with a dick but I’ve kind of misplaced it for some years but it’s here someplace.” For a wonderfully reverse view of penetrative sexuality Google “strap on” and read the essay in Salon magazine.

In fact I think it quit possible that we are so suppressed sexual from birth that our very physical enjoyment of it is stunted by several orders of magnitude compared to, say, some Pacific Islanders. Now if only someone would fund a research project I’d be happy to… (grin) But in fact that won’t happen. The author of The Perfect Fit ( a successful research project on teaching heteros to cum in unison) said that funds were readily available for androgynous sexual research but not for heterosexual. Now where is that Church Lady when you need her?

Why isn’t everyone seen as sexual by nature? Why in the area of sexuality is “Stop” and “Bad until proven good” the norms? Why is it so often “sinful”. For an astonishingly different view try a read; Father Joe by Hendra, in your local bookstore even as we speak. And why in a nation where there is so much “sex” is there so little satisfaction and why are there so many “sick” people?

Marion County arraignment 7... (Below threshold)

Marion County arraignment 7/19/2004 @ 1:15 pm.

Here’s another beaut… Clark... (Below threshold)

Here’s another beaut… Clark County Nevada, home of Las Vegas, you may have heard of it, Sin City… What happens in Las Vegas stays in Las Vegas… etc. There’s a swingers club and they have internet access and so one of the business license enforcement agents cited them twice for running an adult theater because… are you ready for this, he could have viewed pornography on their internet access connections. He didn’t say that he actually viewed it or saw anyone else viewing it but someone could have viewed it on those computers… Hence… Even the Church Lady is speechless on this one!

Once again our tax dollars at work. One would think that all the complaints about budget short falls in city and county administrations couldn’t be true when you see them spending our money like this.

Is this agent aware, and his supervisor who apparently accepted his citations (two, one wasn’t enough, he was sniffing around and howling and a scratching) that you could/can access pornography on library computers. Are the libraries now to be cited, all the internet cafes? Not even to mention the real question as to what is pornography in the first place. Anyone care to put forth an informative definition for our edification?

So government, minor bureaucrats actually, gray little men who have only known pleasure when they looked the word up in the dictionary, are now to decide what an adult shall be able to access on the internet? Special delivery from the “Duh” truck, has anyone in the county office ever heard of the First Amendment to the US Constitution? Well, yeah, they’ve heard about it but they think it’s a mistake. If Conservatives (what in the hell are they conserving?) had their way they’d tear most of the first ten amendments out of the US Constitution like a wolf the throat of a lamb.

So where is the firewall in all this? What in principle does stop this agency from coming down on libraries or anything or anyone else? Well, in principle, nothing.

I met a guy who was going to put on his third annual erotic art show for local artists. This time around the county told him he couldn’t do it. Long story short, he told them either give him a permit or come and close me down. Didn’t hear from them again.

The point of a law and law enforcement is to protect the community from harm not to selectively harass undesirable elements, said elements defined by minor bureaucrats who can spot an undesirable like a leopard can spot a limp… while the rest of us are taking time to eat and sleep they are always on the look out for troublesome people… Just the better to protect you you understand. Don’t in fact all of you feel a lot safer now that you know one of them uncoiled from his cubical and… and… I can’t even name it.

Undesirables!!! Wasn’t it Bonhofer who said about the Nazis… When they came for the Jews I said nothing, when they came for the trade unionist and the Communists I said nothing for I was neither, when they came for the Catholics I was silent because I am a Protestant. And when they came for me there was no point in crying out because there was no one left to hear.

But least I appear biased how about one about the Progressives or as they are other wise known in some circles ‘the elite, autocratic enemies of the liberal democratic process. We’ve been talking about selective enforcement. How about the good mayor of San Francisco, Gavin Newman and gay weddings? They are against California law but did that stop GN, not on your life.

The main rational for gay weddings is a lie. It isn’t so one may make life and death decisions for a partner in the hospital or inheritances or property or what ever. They can have all this by taking out a power of attorney on each other and have full rights in all areas. One of the real reasons is economic i.e. health benefits, pensions, etc. Those are legitimate concerns but would it be too much to ask that they be stated baldly and out in the open? The answer to that of course is “Yes.”

Another reason for gay marriage, the best reason of all really, is love. But tens of millions of people will be glad to testify that you don’t have to be married to love. They can make any kind of private commitment, and they have, without marrying. Is it somehow too much to ask this group if they really feel strongly about the situation to begin a debate and move the agenda through the democratic process? Does not anyone remember that abortion (a right I strongly support) rights were flash danced through the Supreme Court instead of having a national debate. The “Moral Majority” was not a cohesive force until this took place and we’ve had 30 years of cultural war because of the way it was done, ending with morons murdering health care professionals to stop “murder”. So now what are we to look forward to 30 more years of cultural upset over this marriage coup?

Again one might ask, where is the firewall? If one is to be free to marry based on love alone than why couldn’t a man marry three wives, a woman her horse or any other convolution that might be your favorite?

And since GN makes his own laws what if he woke up one morning and said that by next Monday all Muslims would have to wear a yellow crescent on their sleeves. No use mentioning that it is against the law he makes or breaks laws as he sees fit.

Well, I’m sure I’ll be told, “But a majority of people think it’s (gay marriage) a good idea.” Well, I’m sure than all of you people will think that a lynching is democracy in action in that everyone leaves feeling perfectly satisfied except an insignificant minority of one.

I would guess that GN thinks the way things are now ‘isn’t fair’ and I would guess he would like to chuck the US Constitution in favor of a document with two lines, “Let everything be fair and I’ll decide what’s fair.” Wouldn’t that be neat? In some times and places that would be called a king or in others a dictator.

I think Sir Thomas Moore said, or maybe the words were just put in his mouth by a playwright, when asked in prison why he didn’t just let Hen have his way with marriage, “And when the devil’s breath scorches the earth behind what tree will you shelter yourself when you have cut down all the laws?”

What could actually be going down here? Is GN just nuts? I guess not in San Fran. The latest I heard is that there is going to be prop on the next election to let illegals vote for school boards. Can other elections be far behind? Running a democracy is full of “dirty-work” enough for all the citizens every day. Why should someone be allowed the privilege to vote when they couldn’t even go through the dirty work of coming here legally?

"Sex contains all, bodies, ... (Below threshold)

"Sex contains all, bodies, souls, meanings, proofs, purities, delicacies, results, promulgations, songs, commands, health, pride..., all hopes, benefactions, bestowals, all the passions, loves, beauties, delights of the earth, these are contain'd in sex as parts of itself and justifications of itself. Without shame the man I like knows and avows the deliciousness of his sex. Without shame the woman I like knows and avows hers."
Walt Witman

Whew, what a Pandora’s Box of pleasures, ecstasies and affirmations of life… Let’s shut this shit down as quickly as possible with as many restrictions, invalidations and negativity as possible.

Debra will you marry me?</p... (Below threshold)
Anthonee Diaz:

Debra will you marry me?

she's pretty damn hot, but ... (Below threshold)
david lee:

she's pretty damn hot, but even so, why a 14 year old? at least a 16 or 17 year old. i mean, c'mon- if you're gonna do it, then do it with someone with more raging hormones then a 14 year old. they are practically going into peuberty. plus, 16 and 17 year olds probly whack off to her more than 14 year olds. its simply an age question.

If an 18 year old has sex w... (Below threshold)

If an 18 year old has sex with a 17 year old the day before their 18th birthday, its Stat Rape, but if they wait that 1 day, its all good.....anyone else find that completely retarded?






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