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Red Lake Killer's Ominous Early Signs

This seems like a pretty strong signal that Jeff Weise, the 17 year old killer of nine people (and himself) yesterday in Minnesota.

Title: Native American Nationalists?
Post by Todesengel on Mar 19th, 2004, 12:09am
Hello all.
My name is Jeff Weise, a Native American from the Red Lake "Indian" reservation in Minnesota. I'm interested in joining the group, as I support your ideals and even though I am young, I still want to join. What is the age requirement (if any)? [more]
A 'Weird' And 'Anti-Social' Loner [CBS News/AP]

Update: The FBI details teen gunman's rampage, from NEWS.com.au:

Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) agent Michael Pabman told a press conference that Weise killed his grandfather, a local police sergeant, with a .22-calibre gun. He also killed his grandfather's female companion.

"Then, we believe, he took the police bulletproof vest and gun belt of his grandfather, donned those, got into the police vehicle his grandfather had, and drove to the school, driving up right to the door."

Mr Pabman said that Weise was "confronted by an unarmed security guard" who he then shot dead before walking down the hall of Red Lake High School, where he opened fire on a teacher and some students.

Weise chased the group into a classroom, Mr Pabman said. "He opened fire, killing a number of students and the teacher."

Jeff Goldstein, who lives near Columbine High School outside of Denver, advises, "[I]f a kid claiming to love Nazis threatens violence, take him seriously."


Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Red Lake Killer's Ominous Early Signs:

» Number 2 Pencil linked with Tragedy in Minnesota, updated

Comments (25)

I'm not sure I'm following ... (Below threshold)

I'm not sure I'm following your thought process here. What would you have the authorities do to other teens looking to join some sort of radical group that would have stopped this tragedy??

Does the political nature o... (Below threshold)

Does the political nature of the group matter? For example, if a kid expresses interest in a far right wing group, is that more dangerous than if he expresses interest in a far left wing group?

Another post on that site b... (Below threshold)

Another post on that site by Weise mentions that he was in trouble last year at this time for threats to shoot up the school on Hitler's birthday.

"By the way, I'm being blamed for a threat on the school I attend because someone said they were going to shoot up the school on 4/20, Hitlers birthday, and just because I claim being a National Socialist, guess whom they've pinned?"


Looks like he pulled it off this year.

In this case they definitely had a reason to look at him seriously.

It's also apparently not kn... (Below threshold)

It's also apparently not known that he was actually 17. FOX has been reporting that he was 15, many other articles report that he was 16, and 17.

Come to think of it, has an... (Below threshold)

Come to think of it, has anyone bothered to ask the school why they don't have records as to the kid's age?! And if they do, which I would assume is the case, then there are some REALLY shoddy journalists on this case.

"You encounter a lot of ... (Below threshold)

"You encounter a lot of hostility when you claim to be a National Socialist, but because of my size and appearance people don’t give me as much trouble as they would if I looked weak. I already had a fist fight with a communist not to long ago over me being what I am (I also won), but it was worth it. I don’t try to hide what I am from anyone, if they’re going to start something over it then fine, I’m not backing down; Nor am I hiding. I try not to be aggressive in most situations, I’ll use force if I have to, but I’m not about to go out and pick a fight. I’m mostly defensive, I’ll defend myself if someone tries something but other than that I’m a peaceful person.

But the school threat passed and I was cleared as a suspect, I’m glad for that. I don’t much care for jail, I’ve never been there and I don’t plan on it."

Also from the same site.

Peaceful person my ass.

I'm missing something here,... (Below threshold)

I'm missing something here, why is someone who claims to support the NAZIs called a a far-right winger? The translated title of the NAZI party is the National Socialist German Workers' Party, socialism is the left, just barely to the left of where our democrat party is now, and smack in the middle of a lot of their proposed programs, like socialized medicine for instance. I know you can go so far east that you can end up west of where you started but is it possible to go so far to the right you circle the globe of ideology and start coming up on the left?

Relatives told the St. P... (Below threshold)

Relatives told the St. Paul Pioneer Press that Weise was a loner who usually wore black and was teased by other kids until "he snapped."

Not that it's any excuse for his actions, but it sounds like the school and the community were quite happy to let this kid be abused as long as he "knew his place" and stayed in the background.

Wonder if they'll learn any lessons from this, or just blame "guns" and "loners" and wait for the next kid to be pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed until he "snaps" too.

Nope guns will get blamed. ... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

Nope guns will get blamed.

Another sad argument for al... (Below threshold)

Another sad argument for allowing school security guards and licensed teachers to carry guns. Until someone invents a magical anti-firearm force field that's the only way to keep kids safe from these sorts of insane individuals.

I don't know about putting ... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

I don't know about putting guns on the teachers, but security guards wouldn't be a problem.

I am not sure exactly what is different, I substitute teach for my local school district, and the one thing I notice is that kids seem much angerier overall now, and at younger ages. I have second graders saying and doing things that I would never have imagined doing or saying in high school, much less 2nd grade.

It would be interesting to ... (Below threshold)

It would be interesting to find out if he had been on Ritalin and then stopped suddenly. I remember reading at the time of the Columbine tragedy, that was a factor. Like Prozac, some of these psych drugs' suicidal/homicidal side effects really kick in when a person suddenly stops, instead of gradually going off them.

Anti-depressants certainly ... (Below threshold)

Anti-depressants certainly have that withdrawal effect, not to mention other problems in adolecents, but I've never heard of Ritalin being a problem in that regard. Except, of course, in that it stops working.

I'm going to dinner now, so... (Below threshold)

I'm going to dinner now, so can't Google further right now. I remember one of the Columbine killers wanted to go into the military, but he failed the test because of the Ritalin in his blood. So he secretly went off it suddenly without telling his parents just before the shooting.

I had just began Googling for "Jeff Weise Ritalin" and found this eery thing. There's a Jeffrey Weise, MD, of the University of California, who was a lead researcher at a San Francisco VA hospital. He is not linked to Ritalin in that section of the item.

But it made me wonder how does an American Indian get a name like "Jeff Weise"? (German). His other name "Todesengel" is also German - Angel of Death.

"Jeff Weise" or whatever his real name is would have medical records and/or school records if one could access them to see what psych drugs he was on.

Well now I've lost my appet... (Below threshold)

Well now I've lost my appetite. Here's what Novartis' own label says re going off Ritalin:

"Ritalin should be given cautiously to emotionally unstable patients, such as those with a history of drug dependence or alcoholism, because such patients may increase dosage on their own initiative.

Chronically abusive use can lead to marked tolerance and psychic dependence with varying degrees of abnormal behavior. Frank psychotic episodes can occur.

Careful supervision is required during drug withdrawal, since severe depression as well as the effects of chronic over activity can be unmasked. Long-term follow-up may be required because of the patientís basic personality disturbances. Patients with an element of agitation may react adversely. Prescription should not depend solely on the presence of one or more of the behavioral characteristics. When these symptoms are associated with acute stress reactions, treatment with Ritalin is usually not indicated. Long-term effects of Ritalin in children have not been well established...."

The rest of the label is too sickening to repeat.

Welcome to the Modern World... (Below threshold)

Welcome to the Modern World, where you give your kids drugs instead of parenting them-- then send them off to DARE lectures...

So, it's the triumph of tho... (Below threshold)

So, it's the triumph of those who harass and the communist masses to inaccurately label people as posing (serious) threat to others based upon their associations with what is alleged to be "a Nazi" group or interest?

I agree academically and always have with nearly anyone who has proven, time and again, that the German National Socialists and "the Nazis" were murdering maniacs (most of them, at least as was their leader and his applied ideology), BUT, in case after case after case of these personalities (kids who murder, mass murdering at schools and in the family), it's proven in retrospect that they were recipients of harassment, either within their families or as is the case most often, by classmates and faculty, even, in the schools they attended.

Groups on the internet that foster violence OUGHT to correctly include sites like DU and even Willis' place and KOS, among others. Based only on the comments alone in those places, there is a fostering and encouragement of violence and of violations of law, but it's the suggestion of violence as solution on those sites that sets them apart as being socially problematic, at least sites that are populated by and attract people with antisocial issues.

So, focus on them, (too and and/or). To simply say that some kid who associates with "a Nazi" site on the internet is going to be, carte blanche, routinely, automatically assigned killer status and should be treated/regarded as such to my view simply indicates that there is a problem that ALSO includes anyone who would say such a thing, teacher, administrator, peer, whomever.

Because, labelling someone "a Nazi," anyone can do and many try in a form of harassment. Many white children in schools with populations of higher percentages of other races face that sort of harassment each and every day, being called "a Nazi" and "white trash" and, let's see..."zionist" and such just because they are Caucasian (it is a real and visible problem in public schools in Hawaii, for example, that white children are harassed and even physically abused by others based upon the fact that they are Caucasian only).

I'm just saying here that ANYone can harass ANYone else by starting false rumors about them and most who harass others engage that very process and start their quite evil and violent process against and about someone else by attempting to proliferate false, negative characteristics about someone else. Which is, to my view, the actual violence, anyone who instigates and authors and encourages that sort of derogation of someone else based upon their own intolerances.

It's easy for someone to hide among others and remain "blameless" by using that method to harass others and that's what every neighborhood gossip and schoolyard bully and internet troll does time and time again, attempts to remain blameless and unnoticed while encouraging a false negation about someone else.

I'm not suggesting that any "nazi" site on the internet is blameless -- I've never seen such a site -- but it seems to me that the statement in and of itself indicates that there's a problem in the psychology of the school that has remained unremedied, unexposed and undoubtedly managed to encourage an imbalanced child to act even more so...coupled with a family that probably didn't (also) recognize the severity of the child's disturbance, and you get a maniac afterward. Same thing that contributed to the Columbine duo, by the way.

Every school in America sho... (Below threshold)

Every school in America should have the following:

1. Single entrance. All others locked to the outside (but obviously open for exit in case of emergency).

2. Metal detector around this entrance.

3. Armed guard with drug-sniffing dog at this entrance throughout the day.

4. Principal and VP should be allowed to be armed, if they so desire and are legally permitted to carry. Firearms to be kept locked in their desks.

Everyone who enters the school does so through this entrance. Of course, there are still risks. A shooter could just wait outside for the end of the day and start spraying bullets at the kids as they leave. But this eleminates both drugs in the schools as well as the sort of captive shootings that seem to always happen INSIDE the buildings. I'll send my kids to that school in a heartbeat.

That first sentence of mine... (Below threshold)

That first sentence of mine (^^), where I refer to "the communist masses..." : I want to include more here about that.

There is a very violent aspect on the internet who self associate with "marxism" and "communism" and then rely on generating peers and fellows inorder to create harassment upon others. You can visit a myriad of sites on the internet and users among larger sites who identify as one version or the other of that/those socio-political ideologies and they are quite militant persons and quite imbalanced on an interpersonal level.

And, worse, a lot of those associate with academics and even become part of the faculties at schools. There is the implication of militant force involved -- the whole "revolution" by force and by arms and such -- that permeates their psychology that is disturbing. I imagine that to marxists/communists the idea of a militant opposition (as in, "a Nazi" or "a right wing" group or whatever) is forceful but the point here is that they are ALL groups that foster militant responses to and about problems that are encountered in society. To try to single out "a Nazi" site or group is misguided, if not contributing to the problem itself by whoever made that statement.

I don't know what's changed... (Below threshold)

I don't know what's changed, I really don't, because when I attended schools -- the whole kindergarten through to twelf year in highschool -- I never, not once, saw or even heard about anyone who required screening for weapons, for the need for metal detectors and such.

Let's see...I saw ONE school yard fight ONCE and that was after school on the corner playfield at about fifth grade between two girls who really hated one another. They pushed, then punched, then rolled around punching and kicking and someone eventually bit somene else before the rest of us managed to get them to leave one another alone (and to take the bitten one to the school nurse, but the child instead ran home).

That was my one and one only experience with "violence" in any school year at any school I ever attended.

College years later, there were some strange people I encountered, yes, but I just had nothing to do with them as best as possible and that even included a few faculty at the University of CA who I found to be unbalanced. University of FL, and in Illinois, never so much as a grumble, a problem despite a few graduated hippies teaching courses in Illinois who were at least very good in the classroom.

So, I don't get what's now affecting our U.S. school campuses, and I tend to wonder whether the expectation of violence actually fosters violence.

SI think the only ... (Below threshold)
Just Me:


I think the only guns I remember being brought to school were water pistols, and those the teachers just took away (where now it would get you suspended under zero tolerance policies).

Also, to be honest I don't see any more or less teasing than I saw, when I was in school. There just seems to be something now that makes kids think taking a gunto school and shooting people is the best way to deal with it, but teasing is not a new phenomena, and it doesn't seem to be happening in larger amounts, it seems pretty much the same.

'"confronted by an unarmed ... (Below threshold)
Jack Tanner:

'"confronted by an unarmed security guard" who he then shot '

That's another big part of the problem. What security was this guy supposed to provide? Is he a blanket?

SOne big differenc... (Below threshold)


One big difference I see is what the perceived stakes are for these kids. Growing up, our world was basically our families and the neighborhood kids. We watched some cartoons on TV, and, if you're young enough, you may have even watched something like "Saved By The Bell".

Now, young teenagers and tweens are pretty much allowed by their parents to be inundated with a radically unrealistic set of images of what their high school experience should be like. Those are the stakes now. Everyone watches beautiful people on TV doing wild and/or cool things. I'm not saying that TV induces them to violence, but that in the case of kids and teenagers who are, quite simple, biologically irrational, it gives them a warped sense of expectations. An impossible standard. A feeling that they are falling behind, irrepairably.

Short of an actual psychotic break, it is only complete despair for one's future that can allow someone to do something like this. Why such despair? What's so different now than twenty years ago? I submit that it could be their notion that they have failed and have no future, at least by the standards that have been etched in their heads by uncaring parents and a mental diet of unattainable coolness and beauty. That their current social ostracism is a complete failure, one from which they will never recover.

If you have caring, involved parents, you will most likely be immune to this way of thinking. In their absence, though...

I haven't checked the news ... (Below threshold)

I haven't checked the news reports yet today, but I had a couple thoughts.... no really. ;-)

Is this properly a "school" shooting? The young man first shot his grandfather and his grandfather's girlfriend. Was the trip to the school just a "well my life is now f*cked so why not take the opportunity" sort of thing?

The parents were either dead (father) or in a nursing facility (mother).

The young man was into racial purity... I wonder if we'll ever find out the race of the girlfriend. (Not a happy thought, but I'm still curious.)

Any news yet on why he kill... (Below threshold)

Any news yet on why he killed his grandparents?

Were they not racially pure or did our Nazi loving teenager just not like the pesky rules guardians tend to impose on their charges? Especially since granddad was a cop.

Gee he'd make a poor SS officer, then.






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