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Terri Schiavo Daily News

Rather than create several posts on news in the Terri Schiavo case, I'm going to try to hit the highlights of coverage around the blogosphere and in the news in one spot. A couple points I haven't seen widely covered to consider...

  • Did you know that Terri Schiavo has been declared indigent, and her care is being paid for by Florida taxpayers? Where did all the money that was earmarked for her care go? Much of it went to Michael Schiavo's lawyers, in payments approved as "for her benefit" by the court. Attorneys: Schiavo settlement money spent [St. Petersburg Times]

  • Michael Schiavo has a new family with kids via his common law wife, Jodi Centonze, who he has referred to as his "fiancee" for over 5 years. She's profiled here.

  • Terri's family appears to have thrown in the towel on the legal challenges to her court ordered euthanizing. The new battle, which is as unseemly as any of the previous battles, is for Terri's body...

  • Just who was it that walked away from a deal in 2003 between the Schindler family, Michael Schiavo, and Florida Governor Jeb Bush? It was Michael's attorney George Felos. Some truths in the Schiavo case [Keith Olbermann]

  • It turns out that both sides are getting financial help. Schiavo case has myriad fund sources [St. Petersburg Times]

  • The Terri Schiavo case has attracted its share of whack jobs (example), but inviting Randall Terry to the party in hindsight probably seems like a pretty bad idea. Anger at Bushes as time grows short for Schiavo [USAToday]

  • Kevin McCullough (WMCA New York) and is staff have produced "Terri's Day in Paradise," which intersperses sound bites from various players in the Terri Schiavo case with Phil Collins's "Another Day in Paradise." You can download it or hear it live at Kevin's weblog.

  • More proof Michael Schiavo had the better lawyer.

  • Michael Schiavo's lawyer George Felos announced that an autopsy will be performed on Terri after her death, to silence allegations his plan to cremate her body is aimed at hiding something. Schiavo to Undergo Autopsy to End Debate -- Lawyer [Reuters]
Oh yeah, Terri's still slowly being starved to death, a fate her husband claims she would have wanted...


Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Terri Schiavo Daily News:

» The LLama Butchers linked with The tragedy being visited on us all

» JackLewis.net linked with Terri Schiavo blog roundup

» Myopic Zeal linked with Autopsy Will be Performed on Terri Schiavo

Comments (72)

<a href="http://www.google.... (Below threshold)

George Felos is just about the creepiest person next to Kevorkian I've ever had the displeasure of hearing/seeing on television and reading about in print...his "death watch" "beauty" remarks about Terri Schiavo moreorless casulized his grim personality that seems to me altogether too, too determined to see death.

These types, along with psychotic nurses and doctors, always seem to find their way to hospices and places where people are prone to die and ultimately do, and Felos' touting himself as being a "hospice volunteer" was a bit like Kevorkian touting himself as being healer-du-jour.

typo (^^)...."moreorless CA... (Below threshold)

typo (^^)...."moreorless CAPSULIZES his grim personality..."

I have to agree that there ... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

I have to agree that there is something creepy about Felos' description of Terri being the most beautiful she has ever been-gives me the willies.

I have known lots of people who have lost loved ones to long illnesses, and while some of them said they may have been at peace in the end, I don't think any of them have ever described their loved one as being at their most beautiful.

And I have to totally agree with why in the world Randall Terry was invited to the party. He gives me the willies from the other side, and his idiotic threats do nothing but make the more sane people who are against tube removal look rediculous.

Keith Olbermann is just as ... (Below threshold)

Keith Olbermann is just as creepy as Felos. He was a 2nd rate sports reader, and now he is a 4th rate news reader. With bad ratings. I wouldn't take what he says as the truth.

After thinking about this case, I'd say this country is backasswards when it comes to euthanasia. If Terri must die, why is it necessary to torture her. Does she deserve that??? Sick judges, sick husband.

It's no one's wish to starv... (Below threshold)

It's no one's wish to starve to death but that is the only option left when the parents pressure into having one installed.

About the money given to Michael and Terri, I have to disagree - it all went to her care.

and other things I disagre with here Kevin.


PS We don't need an update ... (Below threshold)

PS We don't need an update on a daily basis.

The numbers published here ... (Below threshold)

The numbers published here are similar to the numbers published elsewhere. The major benefactors are the lawyers, particularly Felos, who will actually end up with more money from Theresa Schiavo than Michael Schiavo. (It's difficult to tell because the records have been sealed for the past several years.)

Furthermore, I have not seen any evidence to suggest that the $300,000 that Michael received from the malpractice settlement was ever used for her treatment or for the lawyers. I would assume that this is community property, and that someone should go after those funds.

... but inviting Randall... (Below threshold)

... but inviting Randall Terry to the party in hindsight probably seems like a pretty bad idea.

You mean inviting the likes of a media hound gravitating to the emotional and hijacking a cause to the point of exploitation in an attempt to further his own sense of import, justice, and worldview? Why, I'm shocked! I wonder if some Congresspersons will get this memo too...

PS We don't need an upda... (Below threshold)

PS We don't need an update on a daily basis.

Here's a suggestion: don't visit this site then. Or start your own. But STFU about what "we" need. Thank you.

Simply put, they shouldn't ... (Below threshold)

Simply put, they shouldn't starve her to death, they should administer a massive amount of morphine and let her body just shut down. Its silly to make even a vegetable suffer through starvation even if shes not cognitive.

That said, its stupid to keep a vegetable alive and waste tax payer money. She would not want that. I would not want that. Who would want to live when you had no thoughts?

Plain to say, if you can br... (Below threshold)

Plain to say, if you can breath on your own, you should be fed. Even if you are unable to feed yourself. This woman has to be screaming from the inside for someone to help her.
All of these political escapades through the court rooms are jokes, and to think, we pick the judges who rule.
Makes me want to ask for more info next time elections come up.
And as for the "husband"...hope he's gotten his rocks off with his new girlfriend, because I believe Terri knows what he really did to her and he's afraid if she recovers....she'll tell all.

I do not understand this:</... (Below threshold)

I do not understand this:

"Terri Schiavo's medical costs - which Bushnell says are relatively small - have been paid for the past couple of years by the state's Medicaid program for needy people."

How can she be indigent when she has a husband that is not? Doesn't a husband had to pay for his wife expenses?


Geez, Cin,May I di... (Below threshold)

Geez, Cin,

May I direct your attention to the top right corner of your screen ... see that little box with the "X" in it???

Now, you DO know what to do with THAT don't you?


If Terri was really nothing more than a "vegetable" she's beyond caring one way or another, right?? So what harm does Terri do YOU if her parents had been allowed to take care of her?


PS We don't need an upda... (Below threshold)

PS We don't need an update on a daily basis.

Cindy, you've been waiting for this, and spouting profanity at the delays! What -- now you can't take it?

I know better than to even ... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

I know better than to even start having a discussion about this, but here goes...

"This woman has to be screaming from the inside for someone to help her."

Could be. But it could also be like this:

'This woman has to be screaming from the inside for someone to help put her out of her misery for the last 12 years.'

None of us knows for sure.

"How can she be indigent wh... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

"How can she be indigent when she has a husband that is not? Doesn't a husband had to pay for his wife expenses?"

Good question, I would like the answer to it too.

Although I wonder if she gets it, because she qualifies for disability. I would bet she probably gets a disability check that more than likely goes directly to the hospice she is in.

Just Me....and, yeah, that ... (Below threshold)

Just Me....and, yeah, that very same hospice in which George Felos participates...I smell a very, very big and quite tearfully crazy rat named "Felos." I'm curious what Felos is going to pocket when Terri Schiavo DOES die, however unbeautifully. This is truly gruesome.

After thinking about thi... (Below threshold)

After thinking about this case, I'd say this country is backasswards when it comes to euthanasia. If Terri must die, why is it necessary to torture her. Does she deserve that??? Sick judges, sick husband.

She has to be starved because conservatives won't allow euthanasia.

If that were legal, Terri could be placed on high doses of morphine and drift off to sleep. But of course, conservatives won't allow that.

A couple of things for sure... (Below threshold)
Eneils Bailey:

A couple of things for sure in this dreadful story. Mr. Schiavo and his weasel lawyer give jerks a bad name. If I was Schiavo's common law wife, I would sleep crutching a knife under my pillow. As for the two common law children, lock your bedroom doors before you go to bed every night. Come to think of it, I don't think the current girlfriend can even qualify as a common law wife, since he still claims to be married to Terri. "Honey, go kill your wife so we can be elevated to common status."

but CarlaI thought... (Below threshold)

but Carla

I thought the liberals were claiming that withdrawal of "artificial life support" meant a "natural" and "painless" death?

Are you saying the liberals lied to us??

Oh my! Ah think Ah'm gettin' the vapors!

She has to be starved be... (Below threshold)

She has to be starved because conservatives won't allow euthanasia.

If that were legal, Terri could be placed on high doses of morphine and drift off to sleep. But of course, conservatives won't allow that.

Posted by: carla at March 28, 2005 07:36 PM

NO, carla, Terri Schiavo neither "has to be starved" nor "has to" die by any means and it's the position by voters, including most conservatives, that inducing death by any means is...murder. And should not happen, should not, at the very least, be state induced, state enacted, the representation of what society deems acceptable.

Terri Schiavo only "has to die" to Michael Schiavo and George Felos. Who really, really want her dead. Oh, and that that's "beautiful."

Michael Schiavo has ordered... (Below threshold)

Michael Schiavo has ordered an autopsy

elisa: While that ... (Below threshold)


While that IS news, it's not like Michael Schiavo can later undo his death act upon Terri Schiavo, who will be even as dead after her autopsy as she will be during it and just before it.

She's still dead, Michael Schiavo still puts her to death, ends her life. Not like an autopsy "allowed" by Michael Schiavo is going to make any difference to the act itself or bring Terri back to life and undo her suffering prior to death.

Of course, Michael Schiavo ... (Below threshold)

Of course, Michael Schiavo can later swear, swear, that he didn't mean to do it, that he just, well, got caught up in the moment, something snapped, he just lost it for a moment there...

Am I the only one to whom i... (Below threshold)

Am I the only one to whom it has occured that in the Schiavo situation there are two frantic parents trying to keep their child alive, and the US Gov't is telling them, in the name of the Constitution, that they absolutely CANNOT do so? (Please don't bother telling me that she's a vegetable. Maybe so. She's also not your child.) Anyone else find this new function of government at all unsettling?
As for the husband's statement that "Terri wouldn't have wanted to live this way yaddayadda"--and have you ever noticed how people are always so confident that they know what dead people would or would not have wanted-- there's a principle in law--cui bono?--which means who's going to cash in?--that probably applies here.

Arthur Caplan, Ph.D. (Chair... (Below threshold)

Arthur Caplan, Ph.D. (Chair of Medical Ethics Dept. at Universtity of Pennsylvania) is just saying on FOX News, in defense of the hospice organizations, that "they know how to manage the dying..."

While Terri Schiavo has never been diagnosed or determined to be "dying" or approaching death, anything close. So I do find a complete preoccupation with the chronic disabled as being "dead already" much as Michael Schiavo has reasoned about Terri Schiavo all these past years. Bioethically, there's no other way to rationalize what is being done to Terri Schiavo, other than to allege that she is "dying" if not "already dead."

Otherwise, they'd have to face the fact that she has been and is alive. Her death is being induced at the demands of Michael Schiavo with the assistance of inobtrusive legalities. Doesn't make it ethical, much more so right or acceptable.

About hospice care as a generality, my earlier comments about George Felos are not aimed in negativity at hospice care as a practice, but at the person of Felos with his involvements in the very hospice in which Terri Schiavo has been kept and his sales pitch in refernece to his own merit as being "a volunteer at hospice..." while simultaneously referring (many times) to the 'beauty' and such about death. The man has some unusual and creepy dedication to the dying process, which is why I described him earlier as being "creepy."

In other words, *some peopl... (Below threshold)

In other words, *some people* conclude that death is what other people *should do* and therefore go about finding the means and capabilities to make that happen. Murderers do that.

What has Randall Terry said... (Below threshold)

What has Randall Terry said that are threats or sound like a wack job? I have seen him on TV and he seems passionate, sure...but civil.

The person who was Terri ha... (Below threshold)

The person who was Terri has been dead for a long time now. Her body and many lower brain functions remain, but the person is gone. And that's very sad. I can see the issue from both sides, and both have merit (ignoring the politics). Personally, if i was michael, i'd just give Terri over to her parents and let them do with her as they please, instead of fighting them tooth and nail. But, on the other hand, according to the law, the spouse is the person next in line to make those sorts of decisions in the event that no concrete instructions are left by the person in question.

The most important aspect of all this is the fact that it's a personal matter, not a place for the government to get involved. Laws regarding this are already in place, and the only part of the govenment that had any business being involved is the courts. Settling disputes is what they exist for. It is a horrible, vile thing for congress to make a law regarding this one specific person. Pure politicing, and purely wrong. Congress has absolutely no business getting involved. It's a stain on our legislative branch for sure.

"Enigma"'s false informatio... (Below threshold)

"Enigma"'s false information is revealed, among the profits by George Felos, among many other misperceptions, in this article:


It's a stain on our legi... (Below threshold)

It's a stain on our legislative branch for sure.

Hardly. The only stain is that congress did not do

Enigma: you have absolutel... (Below threshold)

Enigma: you have absolutely no foundation to suggest that Terri Schiavo has no "person" ("the person is gone").

What you echo, however, is what Michael Schiavo and attorney George Felos NEED people to accept, and even they cannot substantiate the allegations particularly what with new statements by many physicians coming forward insisting that they don't agree with what Michael Schiavo and Felos insist from earlier, previous and paid consulting by one neurologist (read that article).

Terri Schiavo has limited capacity but there's no compelling reason to put anyone to death simply because they have diminished capacity. Unless, like George Felos, you get paid to promote that point of view.

It's interesting to my read (article) that Felos has been paid and paid so many thousands of dollars for "media" work -- that is, he's established a relationship by contract with Michael Schiavo whereby he, Felos, gets paid and paid quite a bit of money to promote the death of Terri Schiavo.

The whole "terri is not a p... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

The whole "terri is not a person" aspect of this debate is what has really bothered me. It is almost like people on the pull the tube side of this issue must dehumanize her in order to justify what they support-guess it is the way for them to ignore that still small voice inside telling them it isn't right.

As for Michael's decision to do an autopsy, turns out that isn't all that compelling considering that it is Florida law that anyone who is cremated has to have an autopsy donel-looks like the autopsy is actually one issue that was beyond his control.

Rightwingsparkle-the threats from Terry have been along the lines of attacks on the Bush's and other legislators threatening support etc. Along the lines of "we will make you pay."

"It is a horrible, vile thi... (Below threshold)

"It is a horrible, vile thing for congress to make a law regarding this one specific person."

Without getting into the question of whether Congress should have passed such in a bill in THIS case, I'd like to point out that Congress passes such "private bills" on a regular basis. That is, bills specific to just one person.

Just a few additional piece... (Below threshold)

Just a few additional pieces from the Olbermann article from Jay Wolfson ("October 2003, was appointed by a Florida court to spend 30 days reviewing every aspect of the Schaivo case— legal and medical (two areas in which he is fully accredited)— and then recommend to Governor Jeb Bush, how to proceed")

"The fact is we're dealing with 15 years worth of medical evidence and legal evidence that were admitted through the Florida judicial system, based on laws that were created by the legislature, rules of evidence in the Florida courts, rules of civil procedure and the guardianship law in particular, which over 15 years evolved with very carefully designed bipartisan political and religious cooperation.

And you're either going to believe the facts that have been accepted by the courts, using the standards of competent evidence and clear and convincing evidence, or you're not.

And there's a reason why you won't. The reason why you won't is because it's hard."

Will that finally put an end to the idea that Terri is not in a PVS? Of course not. No evidence is good enough. Will the autopsy? If the autopsy conclusion is that she was not in a PVS, then I'll come back on this thread and apologize to every last person that I've argued with because they were right and I was wrong. How many of the people on the other side are willing to make that same deal? Anyone? TruthTeller? "Been There"? Anyone?

Wolfson continues, "But the evidence that was submitted and the process that was used throughout the Florida judicial system and the federal judicial system substantiated that information about her state and about the evidence that was used to establish her intentions." -- Wow, just what I've been saying all along.

Oh, lastly:
"I found nothing in the evidence, nothing— and some of the people who have been presenting evidence recently saying that there's been abuse. They shared that evidence with me a year and a half ago, as well. And I've seen it rather recently again.

There's no evidence to support that she was abused. For 15 years, she hasn't had a bed sore. Ken Connors, who was the governor's attorney was a plaintiff's attorney who made a lot of success in nursing home -- nursing home injuries. She's never had a bed sore in 15 years."

So this from a man schooled in the law and medicine. From a man who spent 30 days reviewing documents, spending time with Michael, the Schlinders, and Terri. From a man who had no bone to pick, nothing to prove, and no dog in this fight.

However, I will say one thing for the World Net Daily article that -S- has posted 3 times. I did have this explanation for "tiby5"s earlier question about indigent care:

"Terri's account balance had dropped to about $100,000 by 2002, at which time a strategy was devised to qualify her for Medicaid, the federal-state health insurance program for the indigent and disabled.

In situations like this, after assets are sold the remaining money goes into trust and can only be used for certain specified purposes, Anderson said. Upon the patient's death any remaining money goes to the government. In exchange, the government extends Medicaid benefits."

So, there it is from WND. Because of this setup, Michael Schiavo stands to get exactly $0 from Terri's death. Oh, good guess on the answer, "Just Me".

Just Me is correct--an auto... (Below threshold)

Just Me is correct--an autopsy is required by the State of Florida before cremation can take place. Otherwise, there would not likely be one for Shiavo had already said there would not. Hope he signed the form without reading the fine print and is having to sweat this one out. But note the way it is presented by his creepy attorney as though it is being done to demonstrate the amount of brain damage. Well, it will show the amount of damage present NOW, not at the time this happened nor at any other time but now after fifteen years of not being allowed to exercise and all the rest including starvation. But it will not reflect the brain in the beginning of her ordeal.

And no, Enigma, the most important aspect of this is not the fact that congress became involved for they do that all the time on behalf of individuals. The most important aspect is that the life of a physically healthy individual with an injury was taken on hearsay by the State of Florida. She cannot possibly be PVS and swallowing her own silava for that alone negates the definition, which BTW, did not exist until around 1995--one of those committee definitions for the purpose of filing insurance. Before then, her condition was called brain damaged period.

The Deathers might want to think some more before making a lack of higher functioning brain activity a basis for starvation. I see a tremendous amount of that among their own ranks. But if she were so near death as they would have us believe, she would already have died. And if she feels no pain, why the morphine? Why was she given it monthly for menstrual cramps? One of the nurses said she put her hands on her abdomen and said "hurt" but we know Michael couldn't have that happening again so he decided to eliminate that before it could happen again?

I do not understand how I could go to sleep in a country where euthanasia is illegal and wake up to the State of Florida actually commiting it the next morning. Even in the Netherlands where it is legal, they have guidelines that say the person has to have a terminal condition and be in pain and the entire family in agreement. None of those things apply in this instance. What happened? How did we suddenly become more lenient in this than the Dutch who have been at it for years? Why is Jack Kevorkian in prison if this is all legal?

I am more ashamed of my country over this than anything it has done since Waco. No human being should be made to die in this gruesome and painful manner, not one. If we did such a thing to an animal, we would be arrested let alone another person. Shame on us all for we failed to foresee and prevent it. It doesn't matter the condition of her brain, this is just so wrong. Well, maybe this is how the social security problem is going to be solved. Surely there is some meaning behind this other than a brutish HINO wanting to off his inconvenient wife and spite his in-laws. It is hard to believe he would be such an exception and allowed to do such a thing for the slow starvation of a healthy body like this is just beyond comprehension. Why is this happening? Is this going to be the only death like this or what is next?

Hello? Are you posters awa... (Below threshold)
Mark A.:

Hello? Are you posters awake and alert? Have you been listening for the past few years? Wake up!

Persistent vegitative state. Fifteen years. Do you know what that means??? Hello? Any clue?

Nobody is killing anybody. Artificial life support has been suspended pursuant to a patient's wish. Don't you see a distinction?

This issue is making me embarassed to be Republican. Perhaps the liberals are partially right--our party seems to be infested with many, many morons. I hate to admit it, but reading the comments here seem to corroborate that.

jYt, just a thought--what d... (Below threshold)

jYt, just a thought--what does the absence of bedsores have to do with whether or not she was abused especially before the night she collapsed? I do not follow that line of reasoning. To me that would indicate that she has good skin and has had excellent nursing care but does not demonstrate either the presence or absence of abuse. I have never heard of bedsores resulting from domestic violence but am willing to entertain any thought. That's just a new one to me.

I can't imagine why her best friend, Jackie Rhodes would go around saying they were planning to get an apartment when Terri got away from Michael so she could get a divorce and that Terri often had bruises if there was not a word of truth in it. She would not likely have any dog in this fight, either.

No one but Judge Greer has ever ruled on the facts of the case, all others on procedure alone. It would take more than this to convince me but I have no doubt that Michael Schiavo with his hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on lawyers likely did present a clear and convincing case. I would certainly hope so for that kind of money, which BTW should have gone for rehab. But it just does not make it true for facts can be presented in a clear and convincing way and still be misleading. See OJ trial.

This issue is making me... (Below threshold)
Clive Tolson:

This issue is making me embarassed to be Republican. Perhaps the liberals are partially right--our party seems to be infested with many, many morons. I hate to admit it, but reading the comments here seem to corroborate that.

Mark A.,

I wouldn't want you to bolt your party (they badly need folks like you), but if you ever want to try solving our problems with a Democrat who is just as sane, ring me up!

I come here to remind myself that there is no depth of hypocrisy and distortions some on the Right will stoop, simply because they hate to lose or admit they can be wrong.

I do not understand why Mar... (Below threshold)

I do not understand why Mark A assumes all of us who do not agree with him are Republicans. This is not a political issue for many of us but an ethical, moral or religious one. Just because it is political for you does not mean it is for everybody. So I hope knowing that many of us just might not even be Republicans as he thought might spare him some of his shame. Lots of us morons are Independents, Libertarians and even Democrats.

But then you'd have to wonder why he thought that in the first place, right? And I believe a little checking might reveal the term 'persistent vegetative state' has not even existed for fifteen years, only about ten of those. Catchy, however, isn't it? Just vague enough to be subjective and yet with specific guidelines, completely dehumanizing but stopping just short of calling another a vegetable. Just right, huh?

To iYt:I see. I ju... (Below threshold)

To iYt:

I see. I just read the Florida Medicaid criteria:

In order to be eligible for Florida Medicaid ICP Benefits the individual must meet the following criteria:
• 65 years of age or blind or disabled.
• U.S. citizen or a qualified alien
• Florida Resident
• Asset Limit of $2,000 ($5,000 if applicant’s gross income is below $722 per month). The community spouse may keep $95,100 of assets.
• Monthly gross income must not exceed the Florida State Income Standard (currently $1,737 as of January, 2005). Only the income of the individual in the nursing home is counted. If the individual’s income exceeds this limit, it is possible to establish an Income Trust to become eligible (see Income Test).
• Appropriate placement – The individual must require institutional care as determined by the Florida Department of Elder Affairs CARES field office and they must be placed in a Medicaid certified facility that provides the required level of care.


Now I understand the legal maneuvers that Michael Schiavo, his lawyer and the judge did in order for Michael Schiavo to keep the money that was intended for her care and have the state paid for it instead.

Thank you for helping to see the whole and ugly picture.


HEARTHOLDER:"This woman ... (Below threshold)

HEARTHOLDER:"This woman has to be screaming from the inside for someone to help her. :

That is not possible: she has no cerebral cortex.

-S_ :The article ... (Below threshold)

-S_ :

The article about the insurance in WorldNet is a LIE.
There was 750K put in trust for Terri's care and Michael could not touch it.

WorldNet is NOT a reliable source. Since you are so sticky wet about this issue, I strongly suggest you get the facts by going to abstractappeal.com

Steve J.You said s... (Below threshold)

Steve J.

You said she can't be screaming from the inside to help her, because she has no Cerebral Cortex?

Guess after the autopsy we'll find out won't we?

She's going to die. Probably very soon too. They're going to do an autopsy, and I hope that it's findings are posted on the web. I am very interested to know if in fact she really had no Cerebral Cortex.

If she did, then it calls into question if she was really PVS or not. From what I've heard there has not been any kind of modern testing on this woman. All the tests are from years and years ago. The husband, and I use that term only in the legal sense, has not allowed any high technology testing to be done upon her in the past umpity so years, so we don't really know do we?

I can tell you this much. If the autopsy reveals certain facts that could have been measured by todays standard of medical technology; This case will be FAR from over.

Example: She in fact does, excuse me, wrong tense use there, DID have a cerebral cortex, severely damaged perhaps, but still aparently functioning by post-death examination. Now we get into the realm of some serious lawsuits. Suits against the courts in Florida and lawsuits against the husband. Who else knows what could be done.

Thats one side of the story.

Of course, the Autopsy could indeed also show she was a Veggie. End of Story, on that front.

Anyhoo, that's my thoughts on the autopsy aspect of this post.

"There was 750K put in trus... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

"There was 750K put in trust for Terri's care and Michael could not touch it."

Well essentially he did touch it. The judge permitted these funds to be used to pay for attorney fees. The majority of that money is currently sitting in Felos' bank account, so in this situation Felos is the guy who in the end got to make out like a bandit.

Felos is a freak.

tiby -- where do you get th... (Below threshold)

tiby -- where do you get this stuff???? Any knowledgeable source reporting on this case has stated that the settlement money Michael Schiavo received has been long gone, much of it spent on her care and lawyers. There are enough good reasons to be against what is happening to Terri Schiavo --- no need to replicate falacious rumors.

Darby, there will be no cause of action against the Florida judiciary -- it is immune from suit (every judiciary is --- for good reason, lest every loser in litigation seek to "blame it on the judge." Likewise, no real prospect of viable suit against husband, since his action took place within the context of the lawsuit (if he's removed the feeding tube on his own, yes).

Husband made right move allowing for an autopsy. Many questions to be answered there. It will hopefully put many questions to rest.

tiby5: Glad to be of help. ... (Below threshold)

tiby5: Glad to be of help. I don't understand how you get to "Michael Schiavo to keep the money that was intended for her care and have the state paid for it instead," since, as I pointed out earlier, the state will get all the remaining money that was earmarked for her care upon her death.

Amelia: Regarding Wolfson's lack of abuse claims, there have been claims of abuse by Michael pre- and post-PVS. He is defending against *both* based on the evidence reviewed, but makes the bedsores comment specifically about the level of care she has received post-PVS. Also, you claim that Jackie Rhodes claims that "Terri often had bruises". Her full testimony is at terrisfight. Where does she talk about the bruises? Where does she talk about any physical abuse at all? Please also refer to 822:9 through 824:3 about how she recovered her memories about Terri's desire for a divorce between her deposition and her testimony. Oh, and best friends aren't actually impartial observers without "dogs in the fight" like Wolfson was.

To those of you saying that an autopsy is required by the state of Florida before cremation, I was wondering what this is based on. I've seen 4 articles on this and not one mentioned that "fact". Clearly, this isn't normally true, since many people use cremation as a low cost alternative and this cost benefit would be wiped away if every cremation required an autopsy. I'm also unaware of any such legal requirement for this case, so why is this true and what is your source of information? Just wondering.

As some one who helped his ... (Below threshold)

As some one who helped his mother do a early planning for a funeral a "requirement" of an autopsy before a cremation is BUNK. Pure anadulterated BUNK and not true

Thank you, Larry. That was ... (Below threshold)

Thank you, Larry. That was certainly my assumption, as well.

So, ball's in your court Amelia and "Just Me". Put up the relevant Florida laws/court decisions to back up your assertions or please retract your earlier statements. Only you can stop disinformation campaigns.

Oh, and please don't give m... (Below threshold)

Oh, and please don't give me this from World Net Daily:

"Dampening the drama of Michael Schiavo's apparent change of heart on the issue, however, is the fact that Florida law actually requires an autopsy or other cause-of-death diagnostics to be performed on any deceased person for whom cremation has been requested. "

Please note the weasel reporting of "or other cause-of-death diagnostics". Autopsys aren't required in this case. You have to have a doctor pronounce the cause of death. That's it. In this case, that's not going to be hard.

As if these guys weren't already biased enough to put this in their coverage, "exposing the many troubling, scandalous, and possibly criminal, aspects of the case that to this day rarely surface in news reports." This is a typical example of what they do to twist the reporting and take in the simple-minded.

jYt--I have heard Jackie Rh... (Below threshold)

jYt--I have heard Jackie Rhodes talk about bruises and how at the time she did not think much about them and even wondered if Terri had hit her upper legs on the corners of desks at work. That may well be why she did not mention them in her testimony, or maybe she was not asked. She insists that Terri was wanting a divorce very badly at the time, however. She is also the one who said that Terri had spent $80 on her hair the day she 'collapsed' and that Terri and Michael had fought about it all day before he went to work in the evening. She has been on at least three major TV Channels giving interviews.

Certainly there is much in the way of testimony that was either not allowed in or was for some strange reason deemed not credible by the only one to have a say in this regard, Judge Greer. I wonder why he would take the word of Micheal over that of three nurses but he did, every time, didn't he? No one was credible to him except Michael. Being legally blind, I guess that helped him not to have to see the videos of Terri smiling and responding to her mother. Maybe Michael described what was happening to him, that would be credible I suppose?

As to Wolfson, yes, he certainly does seem like a decent sort but the problem comes in with the fact that those of different sides in this just do not read him the same way. I have also watched him on at least two occasions giving interviews for television but I did read the article to which you refer. They are all pretty well consistent except I have heard him say he did not want to see Terri die and have to wonder why if this is such a good and wonderful thing. Whereas you see all of this affirmation, I see that he made two suggestions that were NEVER carried out. One was for swallowing tests and the other new neurological testing. I would assume he meant something from this century and not the very early nineties like an MRI or better yet, as I understand it, the more sensitive PET scan.

Now when a person is giving advice and counsel in this manner, one can assume their conclusions would be based on their suggestions being carried out, not totally ignored as these were. Very odd, that. The only scans we have in these records are old CAT scans. There is an opinion by a radiologist at http://codeblueblog.blogs.com/codeblueblog/ wherein another physician or two takes a look at the CAT scan (if it is even Terri's--how would we know with her in a facility under the control of Felos?) and discuss the fact that they see the end of a shunt and some electrodes of some sort that were installed as some sort of experiemental something Michael had done. Those things are supposed to be maintained and checked from time to time to see if they have shifted.

But if there is indeed a shunt or electrodes, without follow up care, this is certainly abusive. I consider stopping her rehab to use the money to hire lawyers to kill her abusive but perhaps you do not see it that way. If it were me, I can assure you I would find that VERY abusive. If there was a shunt, why? Why was it discontinued and was it still needed, what's with all that stuff in her poor brain! No wonder she has brain damage! But those commenting there offer assurances that the CAT scan shows only a thinning of the cerebral cortex, like that of an elderly lady instead of someone her age, it certainly is not missing nor liquified. Perhaps the autopsy will shed some light on this but it is really a moot point at this late date.

So Wolfson was fond of Terri and her family and I think he is trying to say something that would be of comfort to the family and desperately so. The glaring facts that stand out to me in the article of which you quote is the fact his suggestions were not carried out and not acted upon at all. Those things left in her brain without follow up maintenance sound pretty abusive to me along with several other aspects of her care the nurses have sworn affidavits concerning, one going to far as to contact the police. And having all personal things like her teddy bears and family photos removed and the shaded drawn to deprive her of any mental stimulation might not constitute actual abuse but certainly are not acts of kindness.

Two years ago, my sister was cremated and she had to have an autopsy. Hers was required because she was a person who died alone, that is not in the presence of any other people. So apparently, the cause of death can influence whether or not an autopsy is required but in the State of Tennessee, one was required because of the cirmcumstance and questions as to why she died. If this is how it is determined, there certainly are enough questions to require one in the Shaivo situation when and if that time comes. I try to continue to have hope but it is difficult this far into things.

One other thing in the Wolfson article that stands out to me is how he very carefully made it perfectly clear that Terri's comment concerning whether or not she would want to live on life support was made in reference to two people on what he calls respirators. Ventilators is the correct term but think they used to be called respirators. He worked that in every so smoothly I thought. She did NOT say it about people with feeding tubes but two on "respirators" which is a whole different item entirely. Felos is the one who got it introduced to have feeding tubes included in the definition of life support, BTW. I wonder exactly when he did that. So while some might read the Wolfson article and see only affirmation of their own beliefs, others will read it and see the glaring questions arise concerning his suggestions being ignored and the fact that Terri spoke only of people on respirators, if she said that at all. Again, only people named Schiavo seemed to be able to hear this. Sort of like the client of Felos that only he could hear screaming to die, isn't it?

I read an excerpt from Felos book about the 'spirit' of one of his clients screaming but only he, Felos, could hear her begging him to help her die. So evidently the man has delusions about necromancy. Yes, Michael Shiavo certainly selected his team carefully and by using her rehab money, he was able to afford the best of the Death Cult, many of them literally card-carrying members of the Hemlock Society and having spoken before gatherings of it it and other death organizations including those supported by George Soros in the area. Soros has spent billions on his project "Death in America" and there seems to be a little wad of them surrounding this case. Strange to say the least, but I believe this particular group is so eager to kill somebody, anybody, they would say and do just about anything to get to be a part of that. I think they need help themselves and it is they who are disabled and in far worse condition than Terri for evidently from her reaction to her mother, at least she has not lost that which most makes us human, the ability to love. They have.

And as for the issue of the federal government, congress, etc, stepping in, yes, indeedy, I wish that had not been necessary and it is wrong but certainly no more wrong that the State of Florida issuing what amounts to an order for execution for this woman. It even reads like one ending in the phrase "until dead" just as though she is a criminal being sentended to be hanged at sunrise. Some will decry this as being a "family matter" but see absolutely nothing wrong with the state governement being in charge and actually ordering that this happen in the first place. So the federal intervention is certainly not even on par with that little trick. Odd, though, how some only mind the federal intervention and not the state. I personally do not consider my state a part of my family but some apparently do.

Jefferson said that it was the paramount duty of government to preserve human life. Either all human life is sacred or at least to be protected or none of it is. We can't have it both ways.

Depending on the jurisdicti... (Below threshold)

Depending on the jurisdiction, it's determined by state or local law. So jyt, what's your specific authority for when/when not autopsies are required in that particular situation?

jYt--So because you and Lar... (Below threshold)

jYt--So because you and Larry say the requirement for an autopsy is bunk, that settles it? I have briefly addressed this in my last post but will keep my eyes and ears open for where the regs on that can be found--no more time for now--but while some of us say it is required and some say it isn't, it may well be an issue of circumstances under which death occurred as was the case with my sister. Just the fact no one else was present when she died required one. I have heard several journalists whom I deem credible make this statement but a just off the top on my head, it may be the fact that Michael is planning to transport the remains across state lines that cause it to be a requirement as well. Some states can be downright cranky about things like that, especially ones where agriculture is an important industry.

It does sound perfectly reasonable and I suspect one or the other of us will come forward with documentation of the requirement. We always do. :-)

Amelia,Since you l... (Below threshold)


Since you lack the time, I took the 5 minutes to look up the Florida statute on when autopsies are required. Here it is:

In any of the following circumstances involving the death of a human being, the medical examiner of the district in which the death occurred or the body was found shall determine the cause of death and shall, for that purpose, make or have performed such examinations, investigations, and autopsies as he or she shall deem necessary or as shall be requested by the state attorney:

(a) When any person dies in the state:

1. Of criminal violence.
2. By accident.
3. By suicide.
4. Suddenly, when in apparent good health.
5. Unattended by a practicing physician or other recognized practitioner.
6. In any prison or penal institution.
7. In police custody.
8. In any suspicious or unusual circumstance.
9. By criminal abortion.
10. By poison.
11. By disease constituting a threat to public health.
12. By disease, injury, or toxic agent resulting from employment.
(b) When a dead body is brought into the state without proper medical certification.
(c) When a body is to be cremated, dissected, or buried at sea.

(2)(a) The district medical examiner shall have the authority in any case coming under subsection (1) to perform, or have performed, whatever autopsies or laboratory examinations he or she deems necessary and in the public interest to determine the identification of or cause or manner of death of the deceased or to obtain evidence necessary for forensic examination.

(b) The Medical Examiners Commission shall adopt rules, pursuant to chapter 120, providing for the notification of the next of kin that an investigation by the medical examiner's office is being conducted. A medical examiner may not retain or furnish any body part of the deceased for research or any other purpose which is not in conjunction with a determination of the identification of or cause or manner of death of the deceased or the presence of disease or which is not otherwise authorized by this chapter, part X of chapter 732, or chapter 873, without notification of and approval by the next of kin.

(3) The Medical Examiners Commission may adopt rules incorporating by reference parameters or guidelines of practice or standards of conduct relating to examinations, investigations, or autopsies performed by medical examiners.

Being cremated isn't on the list.

Now, who were those credible journalists that made this statement? You seem rather reluctant to name names. In fact, you seem rather reluctant to do much research or provide many facts at all. You're a font of unsourced information with enough time to create a 1,400 word post, but no time to actually back up anything you say?

So, you've heard Jackie Rhodes talk about bruises, the marriage, etc. I guess she's really getting around these days. But, when actually in court and giving depositions she fails to mention these otherwise salient details. How strange. Perhaps being under oath and facing cross-examination has that effect. Also, if you read the testimony, you'll see that it is the complete, unexpurgated testimony including objections, irrelevancies, etc. so this particular roadblock of yours also falls flat.

So, ball's in your court Am... (Below threshold)
Sue Dohnim:

So, ball's in your court Amelia and "Just Me". Put up the relevant Florida laws/court decisions to back up your assertions or please retract your earlier statements. Only you can stop disinformation campaigns.

Posted by: jYt at March 29, 2005 08:50 AM

Just look at this horribly biased website that supports Amelia and "Just Me." Florida District Six Medical Examiner? What a conservative rightwing religious nutjob! Talking about something they call "laws." Humph. Like we enlightened people need anything like "laws"!

jYt -- the statute says:</p... (Below threshold)

jYt -- the statute says:

(c) When a body is to be cremated, dissected, or buried at sea.


Nonetheless, the statute do... (Below threshold)

Nonetheless, the statute doesn't require an autopsy -- it just gives the M.E. the authority to conduct one.

jYt--So why the pers... (Below threshold)

jYt--So why the personal attack on me? I have been extremely civil to you and would appreciate if you could exhibit enough maturity to do the same.

Since this is one of the most highly contested deaths in the history of the country, I do believe it would qualify under several of the specifications listed below. Try A.1. for starters.

But your ad hominem attack on me is totally unwarranted. I don't play your little kiddie games like that.
Here is the Statute you said did not exist. That certainly is not my fault.

>>Cremation approval
(Florida Statutes 406.11(1)(c))

A. All requests for cremation, burial at sea, or donations must be approved by the Medical Examiner prior to the actual cremation.

1. Before authorizing the irretrievable disposal of a body by cremation, the Medical Examiner must be assured that no future question will arise about the cause or circumstances of the death of the individual.
2. The death, if previously unreported to the Medical Examiner, must first be verified as a non-Medical Examiner case according to Florida Statutes, 406.11.

B. Approval of a cremation, and accepting the responsibility for irretrievably destroying potential evidence, is a decision based on the quality of the information on the death certificate. The death certificate should be accompanied by a CREMATION APPROVAL FORM filled out by the attending physician to demonstrate that the death was due to natural causes. The cause of death on the death certificate must be sufficient to:

1. rule out trauma,
2. identify the immediate cause(s) of death, i.e. septicemia, peritonitis, bronchopneumonia, renal failure, etc., and
3. identify the underlying or proximate cause of death - the "due to" disease or injury responsible for initiating the lethal sequence of events.

C. The most common pitfalls this office encounters with causes of death are:

1. failure to state the underlying cause of death;
2. scrambling of immediate and underlying causes of death; and
3. listing extraneous data in the section entitled 'Other Significant Conditions'. The section 'Other Significant Conditions' (Part II) should be used only for those conditions that contribute to death, but are unrelated to the cause(s) listed in Part I.

D. The CREMATION APPROVAL FORM is often helpful in clarifying the cause of death as well as providing additional medical history that assures that the death was not by violence.
Words like subdural, fracture, sepsis, fall, trauma, cardiac arrest, heart failure, hemiplegia, quadriplegia, paraplegia, and shock typically do not explain a natural death and often indicate a traumatic origin. It is necessary to rule out traumatic underlying causes or identify the natural disease processes,

back to medical examiner home page

So this is what you do when you are proven wrong? Instead of the nice apology you said you would use with regard to the Wolfson post, you attack the other poster personally? Nice, real class, and some how does not surprise me one bit.


jYt, if you prefer it from ... (Below threshold)

jYt, if you prefer it from your own post, wavemaker is correct, there it is right in Section 12.C. with the qualifying (2) (a) of in the public interest. Since we have people standing vigil outside the hospice, I think that would qualify as public interest to be considered.

>>12. By disease, injury, or toxic agent resulting from employment.
(b) When a dead body is brought into the state without proper medical certification.
(c) When a body is to be cremated, dissected, or buried at sea.

2)(a) The district medical examiner shall have the authority in any case coming under subsection (1) to perform, or have performed, whatever autopsies or laboratory examinations he or she deems necessary and in the public interest to determine the identification of or cause or manner of death of the deceased or to obtain evidence necessary for forensic examination.

But there's your problem, right there, it's your reading skills. No wonder you are just sooo confused. Be that as it may, it is still lame to launch a personal attack just because your facts are weak. Is that supposed to divert attention away from the fact that you are just plain wrong about this statute? Well, it doesn't.

SteveJ:I am "stick... (Below threshold)


I am "sticky wet" about this issue?

I'd say that if those words by you are to be believed, you are dry, dead and decomposed.

Better to be fluid and in motion than dried out and, um, dust as you appear to be in your quite insane nonsense. You writing that statement about me reveals far more about you as nonsensical 'source' than anyone/thing else.

If World News Daily printed some one error in their story, so be it (while you have provided no substantiation about that allegation of yours -- I have no idea as to the accuracy or inaccuracy but since it's you who has suggested an inaccuracy, I would far believe World News Daily as source than I would you on this thread, and elsewhere for that matter) (you've proven yourself to be emotionally negating to and about the entire issue of Terri Schiavo and it makes no sense beyond any reasonable point of personal opinion, and what it does do is evidence your own morose and problematic psychology instead, but I bet you miss that).

About what JtT continues to hype here, he/she is stuck on some past point that despite being so, is past, is problematic, and is suggested to be corrupt, even. It is worth looking into the suggested suspect history surrounding Terri Schiavo. Which is all most everyone has been suggesting all along. Judges, legislators, courts...these all make errors, mistakes, even outright nonsense at times and just because there is a "history" of whatever, does not make it by automation truth, justice nor even accurate.

Courts only or should only rule based upon what is before them, what is allowed to be included in their decision, and upon precedence. Many decisions are disallowed upon appeal when even precedence is not taken into a decisiion process. Just saying, human decisions are not reliably, consistently always, without error.

It is nonsense to insist that simply because ten people concluded something and only their opinions were taken into consideration into a decision, that only those ten opinions bear merit.

Particuarly when there may be (and in Terri Schiavo's case, there are) many higher numbers of options and opinions available and in existence.

The ONLY people focusing on fixed issues here also then conclude death to a severely disabled person based upon the heresay/opinion of someone else. Which is, in fact, nonsense.

Somehow the continued "opin... (Below threshold)

Somehow the continued "opinions" about Terri Schiavo and suggesting capability to assist and provide information to the public by JtT seems very, very creepy.

I'd say that if there is any nonsense in this issue on Wizbang, it has and continues to originate from a group element on this site by the same users, JyT, SteveJ and a few others.

I am never surprised at the depths to which the American Civil Liberties U. goes to perpetuate the negative as the positive, that which is nonsense as sensible, and worse.

There is suggestion of wrong doing and misleading in the efforts to bring about Terri Schiavo's death and how, and that's adequate for our society to pursue the truth here, inorder to prevent similar behaviors on the behalf of others. I don't find that too awfully profound a concept to grasp and it is even more curious (if not suspicious) why some persons display an aggressive need to disallow reconsiderations where Terri Schiavo and others like her are concerned.

IF she had made her wishes known, they'd have been respected. She didn't and what Michael Schiavo has perpetuated is the belief in his own opinion. That George Felos has been involved in this case seems to be the non surprise.

Yes, Amelia, you are correc... (Below threshold)

Yes, Amelia, you are correct about that "personal attack" method you mention from jYt and others here, elsewhere, about Terri Schiavo.

Their entire reality depends upon that method. Otherwise, all that remains is their opinion. Meaning, the personal attack method is used when you have little else available as to information, reason.

Another thing: I notice jY... (Below threshold)

Another thing: I notice jYt can only denigrate the information as to the "$750,000" malpractice award received by Michael Schiavo by dissing World News Daily as source.

If that's not true, then please explain why you know otherwise, jYt, because, so far, that's what I along with World News Daily have been able to find out about that malpractice award, and the series of events surrounding it.

So, you disagree with the source, the information that the source has presented, the award itself, what? Mistakes happen so please enlighten us as to your special information about this error, if it is an error, and why you consider it to be.

If it's World News Daily alone as source that bothers you, please explain that. I mean, intersted persons are waiting with bated breath for your very important insights here. The rest of us saw past your insights quite a while ago.

Heartholder"This wom... (Below threshold)

"This woman has to be screaming from the inside for someone to help her."

(after extraneous nonsense)

Les Nessman
None of us knows for sure.

Praxi (on Paltalk :-)
Yes, however we have a first person account from Kate Adamson (and I believe others) about tube removal, hunger and pain. Of course if you really think that Terri is different, and doesn't feel anything, I see a bridge out my window for sale.

There are also starvation and also dehydration victims in tsunami disasters, nazi death camps, peace corp and others who offer us evidence.

There is 0 question of the ... (Below threshold)

There is 0 question of the cause of death. Terri Schiavo is dying of dehydration. Seeing as how the media is covering every second of this, I don't think that there will be any question of the cause of death.

And yes, the medical examiner could demand this autopsy. Do we actually have any evidence that he was going to, since there is absolutely no question of the cause of death?

-S-, I think I recall readi... (Below threshold)

-S-, I think I recall reading the GAL report from whatsisname regarding where the settlement money went and was spent....The 750k went into a medical trust, and MS agreed to put (the rest of) his 300k in a charity....don't have time to look it up, but there was some inquiry into it by GAL.

wavemaker-the 750k went int... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

wavemaker-the 750k went into a medical trust, but at some point, the judge permitted Michael to use the trust money to pay for the attorney fees. Some estimate that better than half the trust money paid for attorney fees, the other half to medical fees.

Don't worry about the autop... (Below threshold)

Don't worry about the autopsy, jYt. The State's Attorney General has ordered it be done. I doubt even Judge Greer would ignore that. And the statute does not say just questions about the cause of death. It refers to evidence being destroyed and other measures to consider.

My main concern about that is that the County Medical Examiner may not have the expertise required to deal with complex neurological issues. I do hope there are consults with experts in the field in this regard as well as representation from both sides involved so we do not have more of the one-way express this has become.

wavemaker and Just Me: wel... (Below threshold)

wavemaker and Just Me: well, what you suggest there is exactly what was described in that World News Daily article, along with even more information about how and to whom what money went and why.

Seems that there is still a sizable investment that will go to both Michael Schiavo and Felos once Terri Schiavo is dead, that remains from that initial award having been invested afterward, less what Michael Schiavo spent and what Felos managed to connive from it, along with his many monies pocketed from the ACLU. The thing I found intersting and really disgusting was that Felos had an aspect to his contract created that he gets paid a fee for his "media work" on "behalf" of (Michael) Schiavo. Thus, it explains the huge media push by Felos and that includes his quite creepy, icky, disgusting "death is beautiful" drech on televisiion just the other day. He gets paid to promote Terri Schiavo's death and seems he's been paid well to do that. Now if he can ONLY GET HER TO DIE...then he can further use the media to further bill for hours/services to further explain away and away and away and away and...

Thanks for your comments but early on, this thread, the pro-deathers reamed the World News Daily as being an unacceptable source and what you write as being something they couldn't accept...while I can find nothing from them to support their incredulous dissing.

Amelia: me, also. Who con... (Below threshold)

Amelia: me, also. Who conducts what type of autopsy is very significant, along with how and to what extent it is documented what has taken place.

RE: Amelia's post March 29,... (Below threshold)

RE: Amelia's post March 29, 2005 08:24 PM
My main concern about that is that the County Medical Examiner may not have the expertise required to deal with complex neurological issues.

The ME may be better able to review the tissue than a neurologist. They'll have at their disposal forensics experts and pathologists to review material. Neurologists will be better with living tissue. The ME will be better with dead tissue. Tissue changes dramatically when normal metabolic processes end. A ME will be more than qualified to define and describe anatomical deformation of the forebrain and hindbrain.

SO WHY IS MR. SCHAIVO NOT P... (Below threshold)
mark patterson:







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