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Why The Minuteman Project Will Be A Bust

Here's what's being reported on tomorrows Minuteman Project in Arizona.

Hundreds Prepared To Patrol U.S.-Mexico Border

TOMBSTONE, Ariz. (AP) -- An organizer of a project aimed at using volunteers to patrol Arizona's Mexican border for illegal immigrants now says about 450 people are ready to take part. But he's not saying how many have registered or taken part in orientation.

Organizers say the organizers will fan out across 23 miles of the border region to look for any illegal activity -- which they'll then report to federal agents.

There are fears among law enforcement authorities and others that the exercise could lead to vigilante violence. Some of the volunteers plan to be armed.

Across the border, dozens of Mexican officials are going to keep an eye on what the American anti-immigration activists are up to. Mexican officials say they want to make sure the rights of Mexican migrants are respected.

About 70 Mexican officials will keep tabs on the so-called Minuteman volunteers by interviewing migrants and asking U.S. authorities for regular reports, to find out whether any migrants have been abused.

Officials in Mexico say a migrant rescue group will have 20 agents in the area to alert migrants about the activists.

The first three paragraphs give a thumbnail sketch of what the Minuteman Project organizers hope to accomplish. Not mentioned is the fact that the ACLU has mobilized to watch the watchers, and protect the civil rights of the illegal aliens coming across the border. On the American side of the border it sound like it's going to be Gringo-city.

The second three paragraphs deal with the Mexican governments response to the Minuteman Project. The striking thing about their response is that they appear to have no intention of stopping "migrants" from making illegal border crossings. They're watching the watchers watch the watched.

Finally, what the story misses entirely is that border crossing is big business in Mexico not some mom-and-pop operation. The smugglers who get people across the border for a living are not idiots - they have TV's, know what's happening on the US side of the border, and they have cars. Isn't the most likely scenario that they take their clients (those who are being smuggled into the US) a few miles farther down the road, outside the 23 mile zone the Minuteman Project (and everyone else) is monitoring? It's a 500 mile border. All you have to do is go a few miles out the way to avoid the media circus...


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Comments (50)

Mexican officials s... (Below threshold)

Mexican officials say they want to make sure the rights of Mexican migrants are respected.

Perhaps if Mexican officials spent a little more time trying to protect the rights of Mexican non-migrants, we wouldn't have as much of a problem.

I, too, doubt that the Minutemen will have much success with preventing anyone from crossing the border, espcially when protecting only a small part of the border, but it is a good way to put the issue in the spotlight. It'll be fun to watch.

Obviously the Minutemen are... (Below threshold)
John Martin:

Obviously the Minutemen are making it an inconvenience for Mexico's
smuggling operations to be carried out. Mexico will put on this big show
of discontent and grip and maybe try to stir up some trouble to force
the State Department to run off the Minutemen. Its so corrupt along
the border these days that it would not surprise me if our border patrol
is being paid off to look the other way.

Wouldn't it be great if cit... (Below threshold)

Wouldn't it be great if citizen groups sprang up along the border, numbering in the thousands, to protect the border? I hope The Minuteman get their 1,000 volunteers.....and with any luck this will only be the first of many such efforts.

I'm telling you, bouncing b... (Below threshold)

I'm telling you, bouncing betties & anti-vehicle mines from The Pacific to the Gulf, except for at properly manned crossing points.

mexico wants the border to ... (Below threshold)

mexico wants the border to be full of holes. They want to get rid of their compost.

i'm referring to illegal im... (Below threshold)

i'm referring to illegal immigrants, not legal.

All those who desire free m... (Below threshold)

All those who desire free markets appear to be hypocrites about the labor market.

No, those who choose not to... (Below threshold)

No, those who choose not to recognize the difference between a free market under law, and the black market outside the law, are the hypocrites.

Once again the anti-America... (Below threshold)
Rod Stanton:

Once again the anti-America bias of the MSM comes in loud and clear or "5x5" as we used to say!

Why is Meixco being held ac... (Below threshold)

Why is Meixco being held accountable for keeping it's people from leaving? If they were to start that the illegals would have even more reason to complain and more supporters in the U.S. The citizens of just about every nation that does prohibit their citizens from leaving at will are accepted as refugees from opression and given asylum. The U.S. certainly doesn't do anything to restrict our rights to travel to nearly anywhere, Cuba comes to mind and I'm sure there are a few others, but it's never been the responsibility of any nation to protect it's neighbors borders, and it shouldn't be. Does anyone really think the U.S. is to blame when our citizens break the laws of other nations? There are countless Americans living illegally down here in my area, I'm one of the few that I know of that have gone to the trouble of going through the process to live in Mexico. Mexico's version of the INS faces the same problems with illegals that the U.S. does, from Central America, Europe, and even the good old U.S.A. None of those other nations take any responsibility for their citizens that are here illegally. But they sure complain if they think one of their citizens isn't treated like they think they should be when they are picked up for breaking the law here. Just like Mexico does.

The Mexican government won'... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

The Mexican government won't do anything to stop people from crossing, too many Mexican workers dend cash back to Mexico, and Mexico needs that cash and wants it.

Also, even if the higher ups in the government wanted to stop it, the local governments are so corrupt, that it is likely they would still accept bribes etc to turn a blind eye to the illegal crossings.

the issues would vanish in ... (Below threshold)

the issues would vanish in no time if there were not people on this side of the border willing to hire the illegals.

First off. Most people who... (Below threshold)
Ktech (ARIZONA):

First off. Most people who live in AZ carry a fire arm when traveling in remote desert area's. an armed person in the desert with water is more sane than not. 2n'd... If the border crossings move to another location The MINUTEMAN PROJECT is a success. Why? Proof that more border patrols will deter migration of the illegal kind. this USAF (mechanic) Vet will be heading from Phoenix to help out this Sunday CCW and 9mm for good measure. I'm working overtime on Saturday.$$$

Stick & stones...T... (Below threshold)
Ktech (ARIZONA):

Stick & stones...

Tombstone visitors got a taste Thursday of what could be coming.

Midafternoon, a man popped up Allen Street dressed satirically in a camouflage poncho and "beer helmet," carrying binoculars and a toy shotgun. He spoke in an exaggerated drawl, calling himself "Harold the Hero."

"I’m here to save America from those bloodthirsty killers," the man shouted.

Most people stared quietly until the man moved on.

But one watcher shouted back, "You’re here to show us you’re a moron."

Name calling... whats next a finger?

see story

Just me, it's not the job o... (Below threshold)

Just me, it's not the job of the Mexican governemnt to prevent it's citizens from leaving. No free nation that I know of does that. When people cross from the U.S. into Mexico nobody on the U.S. side searches the car or asks the intentions of the occupants. People are expecting Mexico to build a fance to keep people in and that's not the way it works now or should work. Prisons have fences to keep people in, communist nations do too. It makes no difference to me which side of the border I'm on, I don't want Mexico to imprison it's people with it's own Iron Curtain. The fact that America is a desirable place to live will always draw illegal immigrants, but it's the responsibily of the U.S. to keep them out. The day that Mexico makes it illegal to leave is the day that the status of people crossing changes from illegal immigrant to defector. Illegal aliens are easy to deport but if you really want to see problems with illegal immigration making them defectors is exactly the way to go. The joke in Miami is that's it's just like Havana, except there are more Cubans in Miami. The U.S. can keep deporting the illegals they can catch or start welcoming every one of them that makes it across as a defector and allow them to stay forever. Which would you prefer?

Here's my fantasy: That we ... (Below threshold)

Here's my fantasy: That we can mobilize about 10 million Americans and swarm across the Mexican border into Mexico and take the jobs Mexicans are incompetent to do (yep we'd take the highest paying jobs), demand free healthcare, demand that all signs and documents be written in English, send all the money we make back to the United States, have US organized crime gangs smuggle US produced Methamphetamine into Mexico, demand Mexican schools acommodate English-only speaking children, demand college students be charged minimum tuition, demand driver licenses,
rob and kill innocent Mexicans and escape back into the US while our government refuses to extradite the murderers, kill Mexican law enforcement officers, complain about being offended by the Mexican flag and other national symbols, build and maintain American-owned brothels, etc. What do you think Vincente Fox would say and do? Hell, what do you think the NY Times and Washington Post would print?

Just me, it's not the jo... (Below threshold)

Just me, it's not the job of the Mexican governemnt to prevent it's citizens from leaving.

It would be nice if they stopped encouraging it. And if they stopped whining about our efforts to protect our borders.

bullwinkle is right. Yet I... (Below threshold)
Ktech (ARIZONA):

bullwinkle is right. Yet I would prefer the market dictate who stays by making it Illegal to hire an illegal. A local Pizza chain will not hire a US felon... They have Non us citizens from Mexico. (ILLEAGALS Non Citizens don't have a right to my families benefits, be it personal or government supported. anything give to them is a gift. The Govt. should let me give my own gifts... again the market can decide.

Noone seems to be commentin... (Below threshold)

Noone seems to be commenting on the obvious, here.

Isn't it the job of the federal government (one of the few actually specifically outlined in the Constitution) to guard/protect our borders?

Instead of setting up vigilante patrols made up of citizens, why aren't these people organizing to force elected officials to properly fund and man the border patrol? Bush promised 2000 new border agents and has delivered 200.

Why should Fox or the Mexic... (Below threshold)

Why should Fox or the Mexican government do anything to prevent their people from bettering themselves? I agree that they should do everything in their power to make Mexican jobs as attractive as American jobs but not only do Americans expect different treatment when our citizens go to another country and break the laws there we welcome the home as heros. It hasn't been that long ago that we had two American women caught breaking the law inb Aghanistan, here's a little of that story:

To many traditional Afghans, proselytizing threatens the fiber of daily life where religion is an intrinsic part.

Headlines last August focused on two young American women, aid workers in Afghanistan, who were arrested by the ruling Taliban for allegedly proselytizing in a quiet effort to win Afghan converts to Christianity.

Traditional Islamic law prescribes death for Muslims who convert to other religions; the penalty for foreigners who violated the ban on missionary work was indeterminate.

The women, Dayna Curry, 30, and Heather Mercer, 24, were eventually freed from prison in the war against the Taliban last fall, and were given a heroes' welcome home at the White House by President George W. Bush.

Once free, the pair acknowledged they had tried to win Afghan Muslims to Christianity, and earlier this month they told a U.S. church audience they hoped to return to Afghanistan.

"I would say unapologetically I would do it all over,'' Mercer said.

They weren't questioned about their intentions before they left the U.S. They went with a plan to break the law and it was common knowledge that was what they were doing, our government interceded on their behalf when they were arrested and welcomed them home as heros. We demand that foreigners in America abide by our laws, Mexico has no laws to prevent it's people from leaving looking for better wages and neither does the U.S. Mexico's responsibility is to protect it's citizens and borders just like it's our government's responsibility to protect us our borders. Protecting another nation's borders is secondary for any government and I don't ever want to see that change.

Bullwinkle, what about thei... (Below threshold)

Bullwinkle, what about their comic books encouraging them to sneak into the U.S. illegally? What about their whining and threats of taking it to the ICC when American voters try to make crossing the border illegally, less attractive?

Address these points, please, or the rest of us will be justified in ignoring what you do say on this topic.

The Minuteman Project has a... (Below threshold)

The Minuteman Project has already succeeded. It has brought it's concerns to to the forefront and has this country talking about ILLIGAL immigration. The MMP has accomplished its goals.

Just remember one thing, folks. A little over 200 years ago a bunch of people got together and wrote something called the Constitution. And before they ratified it they added in what is called the Bill of Rights so that there would be NO DOUBT that we (the American people) could never face the same indignities that the English had committed on their fathers and family.

Here are the first 2 ammendments...

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The MMP is EXCATLY the type of group that falls under the 2nd ammendment. I do believe that James Madion would be proud of them.

And btw - shouldn't the ACLU be PROTECTING the MMP rights instead of being more concerned about a group of individuals KNOWINGLY breaking the laws of the USA?


Read those comic books agai... (Below threshold)

Read those comic books again, I have one laying around here somewhere I picked up a while back. They tell how to SAFELY cross, they don't encourage crossing. Translating them word for word might seem like they are encouraging it but if you are fluent you'd understand the difference. The U.S. routinely gives travelers advisories also. That's really about all the comic books amount to, warning against using the wrong coyotes to smuggle you and survival tips for crossing the desert. Telling them they need to carry plenty of water is the same as warning grngos not to drink the water in Mexico. BTW I couldn't care less if some of you decide to ignore what I say, you can and will continue to believe whatever info you have, I'm writing for the benefit of those willing to listen, someone who once had an uncle that has some horror story about Mexico is likely to believe that rumor over the truth anyway. No reason to believe a dual citizen that divides him time between both countries and has for years, and is routinely called upon by officials of both countries to help resolve the little problems that arise with illegal immigration from both sides. What could I possibly know about it that someone that had never even lived near the border doesn't?

Okay, so they don't encoura... (Below threshold)

Okay, so they don't encourage people to cross the border illegally, they just tell how to do it?

"But Dad, I only told him how to do a choke hold, I didn't tell him to actually do it to his sister!"

Man, if only that excuse worked for me.

Anyway, I'm off to the State Department website. I'm sneaking into Canada illegally soon; I need to see if they've posted any "travel advisories" on how to do it.

<a href="http://www.azcentr... (Below threshold)


Here's an article on the comic books, mine must already be packed for the annual northern migration. The article has some great quotes in it by other people like me that are terribly uninformed on the matter, like the Border Patrolman from Arizona that says, "If they've already gone ahead and made that decision to cross illegally . . . then anything that helps protect lives is worth it," said Andy Adame, spokesman for the Border Patrol's Tucson sector.

B..but...only illegal Mexic... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

B..but...only illegal Mexicans will do the infamous JobsThatAmericansWon'tDo(tm). Hmm, I wonder if there were no illegals to exploit, then would JobsThatAmericansWon'tDo(tm) start paying better wages?

Seriously though, every single graduating class of basic training from all branches of our military should spend the first two weeks of their career patrolling the border.
You'd have a steady stream of fresh eyes on the border, the newbies would hone their observation, camping, hiking, navigation skills. They'd learn how to spot, capture and interrogate an 'enemy'. They'd learn tracking and camoflage skills. They'd constantly change which sections of the border they patrol. They'd patrol day, night or both. It's a win-win for the U.S. They could provide first aid to injured illegals before turning them back over to their own loving government.

This won't solve all the illegal immigration problems but it will solve many of them plus give our guys invaluable training.

Oh, yeah, plus it means the Feds will actually use our military for one of the few things it is legally required to do: DEFEND OUR GODDAMN BORDERS.


Free market yes but enforce... (Below threshold)

Free market yes but enforce the laws against hiring illegals. I live in San Diego and don't have to go far to find these illegal immigrants

Suddenly Mexico (and the U.... (Below threshold)

Suddenly Mexico (and the U.S.!) have increased resources to send to the border, just for all the wrong reasons. Suddenly, there's no mention of not being able to police whatever, wherever, and Mexico suddenly coming to with what *it needs* to get *what it wants* is the issue -- along with the fact that Mexico's response in this matter just proves (as if proof/more proof was needed) that there's no intention by Mexico to curb or even redirect it's illegal immigrants from abusing the U.S.'s immigration laws.

Not like anyone is actually surprised. I don't think the MinuteMen plan/program is going to go bust; rather, I do believe it'll become increasingly popularly supported. The response by Mexico about the very idea of the program (and others, unfortunately) is very distasteful. I admit that I found President Bush's comments about the MinuteMen perhaps indicating "vigilanteism" was profoundly disappointing, since he missed the intensity of the expression here: American citizens mobilizing to enforce the laws when they are being denounced by those trusted to enforce them.

About illegal immigration, Bush has it all wrong. He just has it all wrong and Vicente Fox seems all too comfortable with Bush's wrongness about this issue, along with the issue itself.

Are our markets so stressed that American employers really have to hire illegal immigrants? No, it's just what some do to justify what they do but it certainly does not make that right behavior, right thinking.

I think everyone is reading... (Below threshold)

I think everyone is reading something into what I've said that just isn't there. I'm not supporting illegal immigration, I'm totally against it. I would gladly trade a leftist moron for a willing worker any day of the week but since we aren't going to swap Noam Chomsky for some guy named Pedro with a leaf blower I'll settle for the U.S. government patrolling our borders with enough people to be effective. We can't expect Mexico to take that responsibility for our borders any more than Mexico can expect us to patrol theirs and I don't think we need our military doing it either. There's some pretty sound reasoning behind the Posse Comatitus laws, I live with military checkpoints here in Mexico and I'm not too fond of them. I get stopped at least 6 times between my house and Cancun and I'd hate see that in the U.S. It's a 6 hour drive and it's easy too see how stopping every car and truck on a major highway once an hour for up to 10 minutes at a time would hurt productivity. What we really need is a system geared more to sending them back and judges that will do it combined with a Border Patrol manned well enough to catch them. Laws with some teeth in them against hiring them would help too. As far as illegals doing the work that Americans won't if your job is threatened by someone who can't speak English, has the equivalent of a 6th grade education and needs a comic book to tell him the desert is hot and dry and that he should carry water with him there's an outside chance you just might not be applying yourself. maybe, just maybe you blew it the day dropped out of high school, got that wicked tattoo of a tarantula on your forehead and had 15 pounds of scrap iron installed in your face. What you see as body art most people consider a walking freak show..........

bullwinkle: the glaring pr... (Below threshold)

bullwinkle: the glaring problem with what you are writing, despite all the sense applied (I understand what you express), is that Mexico and Mexican's illegally immigrating to the U.S., as with others who use Mexico as their illegal immigrant pathway to the U.S., the problem is that they are not believable.

Illegal immigrants with Mexico as official looking-the-other-way government sponsor continue to allege that they're here (in the U.S.) because they "want to work" and yet, ask them about their methods of illegal immigration and no one takes the issue seriously, and the immigration laws that otherwise provide a lawful plan for immigration (for nearly all) becomes an issue of both ridicule and entertainment.

As in, there is cultural encouragement in Mexico (avid encouragement) to illegally immigrate to the U.S. for various reasons, but mostly, in my experience, it is deemed some sort of right to passage and act of cultural heroism to actually illegally immigrate, to actually defy the immigration laws, jobs waiting or no.

IF Mexico issued official warnings and cautions about respecting the laws of the U.S. (and other countries), advised their citizens to, when and if they travel elsewhere, to abide by the laws of wherever they are going (which the U.S. State Dept. DOES do), offering assistance in issues of VISAs and such (which the U.S. State Dept. DOES do) and all those lawful, sensible things, then I'd take what the Mexican govt. has done via those comic books more seriously by including those comics within some larger official helps.

But, the Mexican govt. actually, to the contrary, speaks out on behalf of illegal immigrants, tries to disparage anyone from using those terms even (wants people to refer to illegal immigrants as "migrant workers" and similar)...these are all attempts to denigrate our U.S. laws, to continue to encourage VIOLATING/IGNORING U.S. IMMIGRATION LAWS and from an official source: the Mexican government.

No, they cannot demand that whoever remains in Mexico. However, Mexico has no problem advising their citizens on how to violate the laws of the U.S. They aren't fooling anyone.

bullwinkle: you undervalue... (Below threshold)

bullwinkle: you undervalue the types of work that illegal immigrants take here in the U.S.

They aren't drooling, sixth-grade level knuckle-dragging jobs, they're things like construction, food packaging and manufacturing jobs, among others. AND, you underestimate those employers who are more motivated by what they can avoid paying to someone by not even asking as to their legal or illegal status, much less their education, out of a desire to hire as many hands as they can.

A place in Colorado -- Aspen area -- a construction company was proven and proven time and time again to having hired numerous (and ongoing) workers for it's many remodels and new constructions in the area and also in Vail, where they had a branch, proven many times, year in and year out, to have hired through the previous year people with bogus SS numbers, fake I.D.'s...the workers just disappear for one year then return the alternate years and are employed again with yet another set of false identification, fake SS numbers and the employer can employ them and pay them well and then wait another year to be notified that the employees' information was corrupt but by then they were on to other employers, on and on and on and meanwhile, those wealthy homeowners had their remodels and those businesses kept a good profit and those illegal employees kept going to and from Mexico or else just moved to another state in the U.S. for a while and worked another construction job there.

You underestimate just how significant and important are laborers in the country for especially construction and industry. Not to mention restaurants and hotels. Many who hire illegal immigrants do so and don't even ask for proof of citizenship, much less verify the identification that they are given.

Worse, what I think it is is that many DO that intentionally (hire illegal immigrants) and rely on no penalties for doing so. Not like they can't just say, "oh, wow, I didn't KNOW they were illegal" after a year or so, if ever, when they're later confronted about it.

It's a market. Illegal immigration is a market. And many people profit from it on both sides of the border so as to US and our government, we have laws and most want them enforced. They aren't being. Question is, why not.

It'd be a great place to st... (Below threshold)

It'd be a great place to start if we could get that nutty Mexican spokesguy off the U.S. airways, the fellow who was former part of Fox's government, continues to appear on U.S. broadcasts going on and on and on about how "we (the U.S.) NEEED these workers, we NEEEED these..."

His name escapes me at this moment but I know most people will know to whom I refer, guy with his goatee and oddly red nose, European/Spanish accent guy from Mexico's government, proponent of illegal immigration, um, that'd be "migrant workers"...

I don't underestimate it a ... (Below threshold)

I don't underestimate it a bit, I retired from the construction business in Texas. I worked for and owned oil field construction and home construction businesses. That's the main reason I said that we need tougher laws on businesses that hire illegals. I do question that the majority of them can compete in that market, I know some can, but the workers that see them can always pick up the phone and call the INS, they'll be right out and pick the illegals up. The majority are picking fruit and raking leaves. I decided to retire at 40 because there just wasn't any good legal help I could find, the only people I could find willing to work illegals, and it wasn't a question of pay. The wages I offered were competitive with any other type of business in the area and better than all of the other construction businesses. I watched the quality of workers decline and the wages go up and I wouldn't work the illegals so I didn't have much choice. Most of the people that worked for me were with me for years, when they started retiring I couldn't replace them at any price so I called it quits and went to live on the beach.

Well, bullwinkle, after I r... (Below threshold)

Well, bullwinkle, after I read that you wrote this:

"...the equivalent of a 6th grade education and needs a comic book to tell him the desert is hot and dry and that he should carry water with him there's an outside chance you just might not be applying yourself. maybe, just maybe you blew it the day dropped out of high school, got that wicked tattoo of a tarantula on your forehead and had 15 pounds of scrap iron installed in your face..."

it sorta gave me the impression that you were underestimating human worker potential/quality in the U.S....later, rereading it, I'm guessing you may have been referring to some among the illegal immigrant crowd, but I still can't tell (could be either, either way).

That's all, otherwise I agree with most of what you write, that it's a difficult problem to "control the border" and that seems to be, unfortunately, to my view, Bush's failed perspective. So he opts to let them in, employ them but to provide them with "legitimate worker status."

The problem IS illegal immigration. Because, legalizing, accommodating, cards, no cards, amnesty, status, anything, it all has just added up to more illegal immigration.

But how we 'control our borders' is another thing. No jobs for undocumented workers and some sort of immediate accountability instead of just turning illegal immigrants lose with hopes they'll return for hearings six months later just does not work. If it matters, any part of the country with an active tourism industry and construction industries has a lot of illegal immigrants employed and working. It's not like the country doesn't know where they are, just that -- what I think it is -- no one wants to take responsibility for remedying the problem.

The Southern border...dunno. That and Mexico as a country starting to develope some other industry other than illegal immigrants. People leave in huge numbers because the can earn more here. On the other hand, has Mexico EVER had an incorrupt government or a country that provided opportunities for it's people? And why not? (Rhetorical questions there.)

The guy who said that Ameri... (Below threshold)

The guy who said that American military members' first post-boot-camp assignment should be a short-term assignment on the border is nothing short of brilliant. I say make it an even 2 months assignment; long enough to really train our people, but more importantly, to make them care about the problem as American citizens who will someday return to their communities and have to deal with the ripple effects of illegal immigration.

I put myself through college in my early 30's, working construction because I could get in a solid 48-hour week. Overtime pay was my recreational money. I can give plenty of first-hand account as to who and where the illegal immigrants are. I was once asked in broken English by a fellow if I could give him a job. Dumb question to ask a guy about to do some business with a chainsaw. Before I fired up the machine, I looked at this guy dead in the eye and said, in gramatically correct Spanish, that I don't work with illegal aliens, and might wish to call "la migra." Upon conclusion, I fired up the saw, and I don't think his feet even touched the ground for the first 1/4 mile...

This is one of many stories from a decade ago. What galls me now are the vehicle stickers that feature a Mexicanized Calvin-type urinating on the words, "la migra." I am a staunch supporter of the First Amendment, but it seems to me that a vehicle displaying this image is enough probable cause for law enforecment to investigate, and if necessary, assist the Border Patrol in getting the job done.

I will also point out that my best friend is Hispanic, and that I get along with the majority of Latino-Americans that I meet for the right reasons. My beef is only with those who abuse American generosity, and with a President who can craft laws to try suiting his (possibly sinister) purposes but does very little to discharge a far more basic responsibility to defend the border.

The militarization of the US - Mexico border has not gone far enough. We need mines, tank and machine-gun emplacements, increased unmanned aerial patrols and more manpower. Our military just might end up learning some new insights on guerilla tactics if it assists the Border Patrol.

Out of Iraq and onto the border.

Right now the spotlight is ... (Below threshold)

Right now the spotlight is on the Arizona / Mexico border. Good. There is a huge problem there. I have no problem with any people coming to this country and following procedure to get in and work. This is the land of the free - NOT the freebie. Let em come legally. Pay the taxes legally. For "x" amount of time. After "x" amount of time - they must renew paperwork , pay a fee and stay. If they do not renew the paperwork - arrest them, deport them immediately.

Just short of brilliant? La... (Below threshold)

Just short of brilliant? Land mines and machine guns? Tanks? Are you out of your mind or an Afghani war lord?

Michelle Malkin has penned ... (Below threshold)

Michelle Malkin has penned a wonderful sarcastic piece on Minuteman Project detractors – in particular the ACLU:

Tom Shuford
Lenoir, NC

Lord Hearteaters' comments ... (Below threshold)

Lord Hearteaters' comments are, as excessive as they may be, the equal and opposite response to the problem. As in, yes, landmines and artillery and such are an extreme response as to suggested idea, but they are an equal and appropriate response to the excessiveness of the problem.

Meaning, the U.S. and those immigration laws that motivates Mexico (particularly) to make such an elaborate and flamboyant flippant foolery of the laws (along with the country's generosity) is of equally horrible opposite -- one is appropriate to the other and it's just because illegal immigration makes such a case about how much they find the laws worth wasting and violating (there's no reprimand, is why), the idea of someone suggesting land mines and artillery along the border is, to my read, about an equal but opposite excess.

As in, the problem is very, very offensive to many Americans, as to illegal immigration and Mexico's, especially, cultural encouragement if not outright bidding to abandon respect and concerns for U.S. immigration and to use the process for their own economic purposes with a sense of heroism attached (which, ahem, is a lot of the motivation involved).

Yes, the idea of landmines and artillery is an awful and severe one, but so is the ongoing illegal immigration awful and severe violation. It's just that so far they're being moreorless catered to (illegal immigrants and the industry that condones/supports it) and fail to get the message as to how seriously it offends so many. Or else they get the message but could care less.

I've always found illegal immigration to be indicative of exactly NOT who we as a country would want as citizens. I mean, is that a good character reference? Someone who's studied the country's laws, sworn to respect and abide by them, to PROTECT THE CONSTITUTION...which is what legal immigrants are required to do.

I mean, I find Bush's stance on this problem to be preposterous, just preposterous. I can sympathize that he can't perceive or manage a method to handle our borders (they're huge and unruly, I agree, and that includes northern border between U.S. and Canada) but there has to be a reasonable response to our laws and when people treat immigration requirements as something of ridicule (and thus avoid honoring), it's not a simple, little thing, it represents a huge insult to the country and a potential for terrible behavior after they're here.

And, about calling immigration and getting illegal aliens rounded up, and such, just by complaining, no, that doesn't happen. Folks in Colorado -- as to that one example I mentioned earlier, this thread -- complained and complained for years and were routinely laughed at. And that was only about the general problem, not to mention the many hotels and restaurants and businesses who employed illegal immigrants or by name and location, just that the problem was there. If letters from the I.R.S. to taxpaying employers of illegal immigrants makes little impact (the illegals just go elsewhere for a season then return later with alternate false documents and start up anothe season of employment), then calls to immigration don't, either.

And, it's not a case of "rights" -- I mean, they're not citizens, they're here without benefit of legal status, the ACLU ought to move to Mexico and work there to guarantee "rights" to citizens of that country, and elsewhere.

Greg: illegal immigrants s... (Below threshold)

Greg: illegal immigrants share a certain level of transparency in the country, just because there exists a lot of options for them to hide and remain in housing, fed, employed. They just do not return to report about anything, even when they have children enrolled in U.S. schools.

Asking them to show up with correct paperwork only happens when they have attorneys who then work to gain citizenship for them and such but they don't return to make reports independently as required. That idea is laughable, not that you are or that you wrote it, just that making these sort of obtuse requirements as if they were LEGALLY present and law abiding CITIZENS when they aren't is unrealistic. They just disappear, not like anyone can punish them with, um, fines and jail time. And, you can only deport those you collect. You have to collect them first, find them...most just go to the Midwest, one Coast or another, wherever they have connections and it's apparently nationwide.

And, not like several U.S. ... (Below threshold)

And, not like several U.S. Senators and various dignitaries don't make residence in the Aspen area. Not like the issue was hard to prove, or illegal immigrants impossible to find. There was (may still be) even a Chinese restaurant that had a whole basement filled with mattresses...upon which, many people slept, lived even, after "arriving."

Actually, Bullwinkle, the "... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

Actually, Bullwinkle, the "just short of brilliant" remark from L.H. was referring to my previous idea upthread; which for the record, did not mention land mines, machine guns or tanks.

My idea seems perfectly sane and has not received any endorsements from Afghani warlords, AFAIK.

Les, I'm aware of that and ... (Below threshold)

Les, I'm aware of that and was questioning the brilliance of your suggestion. Using soldiers straight out of boot camp or even experienced soldiers for that matter is insanity. The Posse Comatitus laws prevent it for one thing, common sense prevents it for another. We don't need armed and over-anxious teenagers patrolling the border, we need well trained INS agents in large enough numbers to do the job. If it takes 5,000 more than we have now hire them. We had soldiers patrolling in Texas in the war against drugs and we ended up with a teenage boy dead. The military has no business in law enforcement and we don't need land mines to enforce laws. You might have noticed that the same person that thinks your idea is brilliant also thinks we should have machine guns mowing down people coming here looking for work. We don't even have laws to put them in prison for any length of time, now some people think we should have kids fresh out of high school handing out death sentences? Doesn't sound all that brilliant to me.

In 1997, for example, a Mar... (Below threshold)

In 1997, for example, a Marine anti-drug patrol
shot and killed an 18-year-old high school student
named Esequiel Hernandez, who was carrying
a .22-caliber rifle while tending goats
near his family’s farm near the Mexican border.
Hernandez allegedly fired two shots in the
general direction of the Marines, who were
hidden in the brush heavily camouflaged,
with blackened faces and bodies covered with
burlap and leaves. The Marines did not return
fire instantly. Nor did they identify themselves,
order Hernandez to put down the rifle,
or try to defuse the situation. Instead, they
tracked Hernandez silently for 20 minutes.
When Hernandez raised his rifle again, a
Marine shot him. Hernandez bled to death
without receiving first aid.39 An internal
Pentagon investigation noted that the soldiers
involved in the shooting were ill prepared for
contact with civilians, as their military training
instilled “an aggressive spirit while teaching
basic combat skills.”40 That assessment
was echoed by a senior Federal Bureau of
Investigation agent involved with the case,
who said: “The Marines perceived a targetpracticing
shot as a threat to their safety. . . .
From that point, their training and instincts
took over to neutralize a threat.”41 The Justice
Department ultimately paid $1.9 million to
the Hernandez family to settle a wrongful
death lawsuit.42


Soldiers shot and killed an AMERICAN boy because they had no business doing law enforcement work. They are not trained to deal with, let's keep the military doing what they are trained to do and let trained people handle law enforcement. The Pentagon and the FBI both agree on that.

right, bullwinkle, most sen... (Below threshold)

right, bullwinkle, most sensible people realize that point you make (military vs. law enforcement within the context of border patrol), but the suggestion moreorless points out to me the high level of frustration and even concern that many feel about the border issues and illegal immigration/violations of immigration laws.

But, also, just because there are incidents in ones and twos and even perhaps dozens to a hundred over time, like you describe there (^^) doesn't mean that all military who are also "young men" are going to be unable to exercise close control over the weapons they use and how. They are trained to...yes...but it doesn't mean they can't be trained to...in certain conditions only and not in others (most already are).

There are Rambo characters in all areas of force, but it doesn't mean it's a characterization of "normal" for other individuals, nor even what should be anticipated as likely behavior by most, just that a few go haywire at the wrong times (not that going haywire is ever right, just that it's effective under certain conditions).

I doubt that anyone would ever go so far as to seriously suggest that landmines and tanks should populate our borders, but it does get a point across as to how offensive the current situations are as to our pourous borders and the ongoing dismissal of immigration laws. I read that comment earlier this thread to not be literally serious but to be theatrically stated for purposes of emphasizing the concern, the seriousness of the problem.

And, it's probably reasonab... (Below threshold)

And, it's probably reasonable at this point to consider just whether or not "border patrol" under our current circumstances is within the area of law enforcement, or within the purview of the military. You're thinking law enforcement, others are thinking military...National Guardsmen are military and they can be deployed to patrol the border without a lot of disagreement if enough people demand it.

Mexicans are going to come ... (Below threshold)

Mexicans are going to come across the border because aggri-business wants them to come across. Case in point was a recent planned border sweep that was canceled because too many farmers complained.

Also, they're not taking jobs away from Americans; they're taking jobs that Americans won't take, jobs that are too menial or labor intensive.

Hey Diaz! There aren't any ... (Below threshold)

Hey Diaz! There aren't any agricultural jobs in the city of Los Angeles. And if Americans won't take these jobs, it's because the flood of cheap, illegal labor from mexico has driven the wages down to nothing. So, can the meme. No one is stupid enough to believe here.

Bullwinkle: "We don'... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

"We don't need armed and over-anxious teenagers patrolling the border,.."

Who said armed?

We can't trust soldiers to simply patrol our own borders, but we can trust them to be sent to an actual shooting war??

There are several sensible ways this can be done (only more senior NCOs, who will supervise, have weapons, or only the nearby Border Patrol have guns and will be called to apprehend the illegals, etc etc..) Use your imagination.

All they have to do is march near the border and report any illegals they observe to law enforcement. Call it a 'training exercise' if that makes you feel better, for that is all it is; with the side benefit of having thousands of fresh eyes on our border.

Since we are obviously not going to get the thousands of Border Patrol that we need, I am just trying to suggest another solution.

With all due respect, I don't think it is that outlandish and idea.

Why not just change the law... (Below threshold)
pissed off at King George:

Why not just change the law in all states along the Mexican border to match Texas law where at night when most cross you can ask for them to leave your property and when thay do not they then commit tresspass allowing you to shoot them and then let the local law hall their bodies away. I beleve this would be a deterent and is legal under at least Texas law at now. Hell, even the local repo guyes duck when taking a car at night!






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