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Jackass Watch - Stray Aircraft Edition

To the Senators whining that they had to walk next to commoners and they did not have a clear evacuation plan... Guess what knuckle heads, who's in charge??? YOU GUYS. If you want to whine about the evacuation procedure, blame yourself.

To the jackass reporter pestering Scott McClellan, YES all aircraft have radios. NO we don't let planes just fly around with no radios. Do you have a brain?

To News Editors... Can you PLEASE make your reporters learn a little about aviation? Right now, airplanes are just a wee bit important to the national security. Do you think maybe your reporters (at least if they reach the national level) could learn a wing from a transponder? Is it too much to ask?

To the Whitehouse Press corps. I really don't care if you had to evacuate and your toes hurt. I also don't care if you were scared and felt your life was in danger. DUH you work at the Whitehouse during a war... (remember the war?) be lucky this is the biggest things that ever happened. If you don't want the "danger" of the job go back to Iowa.

To FoxNews. please tell John Loftus that he has to stop taking 3 martini lunches then getting on the air and making a jackass out of himself. I know you guys were caught without a guest but having someone who advocates shooting down aircraft 75 miles from the Whitehouse is a moron. We would have shot down hundreds of lost aircraft in the last 3 years INCLUDING the Gov of Kentucky. I knew more about aviation when I was 12 then this guy. Please never let him talk about aircraft again. He's a federal prosecutor... Let him talk about the Michael Jackson case, not aviation. He was an embarrassment to FoxNews.

To most everyone else on cable news, please learn the difference between mountains and molehills. Geeze people, it was a stray aircraft. Pilots get lost too.

Sorry, my stupidity tolerance level has been far exceeded by the stupidity coming from cable news networks... I had to vent.


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Comments (73)

Yeah, what Paul said....</p... (Below threshold)

Yeah, what Paul said....

- CrankyOldConservaticePilot

I was watching that as well... (Below threshold)

I was watching that as well and Loftus never said anything about shotting down the plane 75 miles out. He advocated shooting down the plane after it was given three warnings including flares being dropped from fighter planes. The plane got within 3 miles of the White House, 4 of the Capitol, that is a huge deal. The pilot didn't simply "get lost". He went in restricted space then out then in again and zig zagged around once in, not responding to the tower, radios or several warnings. What kind of message are we sending here allowing that? If he had any type of chemical weapon he could have killed thousands.

>The pilot didn't simply "g... (Below threshold)

>The pilot didn't simply "get lost".

How do you know that? Were you in the plane? You don't know jack. We have no idea why he was there.

>He went in restricted space then out then in again and zig zagged around once in

And how do you know that? Scott McClellan (you know the voice of the Whitehouse) said that was not so. I believe him over you.

I'd bet a mortgage payment you ain't a pilot.

No, I'm not, but I do work ... (Below threshold)

No, I'm not, but I do work directly across the street from the white house, was evacuated, and watched the jets and helos.

Paul: "Geeze people, it was... (Below threshold)

Paul: "Geeze people, it was a stray aircraft. Pilots get lost too."

Paul: "We have no idea why he was there."

Which is it?

Do I need to buy you a dict... (Below threshold)

Do I need to buy you a dictionary?

The statements were not mutually exclusive.

The aircraft was stray, pilots do get lost and we have no idea why he was there.

Now quit being a jackass.

"Lost"??? You mean the pilo... (Below threshold)

"Lost"??? You mean the pilot couldn't see the Capitol, White House, Washington Monument, etc...c'mon. I dont think people that get "lost" that close to our political nerve center should be able to have a pilots license!

Exactly Rylo. And Paul, giv... (Below threshold)

Exactly Rylo. And Paul, give me a break, if you are saying he was simply lost, then you know why he was there, he was lost. If you are saying you don't know why he was there, than that implies he was either up to something, or he was lost but you you are not sure which. So which is it? What are you trying to say? Are you saying that you know for a fact he was simply lost or are you saying that we don't know why he was there and could have been up to something?

If I were one of those evac... (Below threshold)
Paul Zrimsek:

If I were one of those evacuated reporters I'd be making a stink too. This was the deadliest threat to the White House press corps since Jeff Gannon. /sarcasm

Incidentally, we do let pla... (Below threshold)
Paul Zrimsek:

Incidentally, we do let planes fly around with no radios.... but not in the Washington Domestic ADIZ.

Lemme type slower since you... (Below threshold)

Lemme type slower since you are having trouble keeping up....

We have no idea what the whole story is.

Yes, the MOST PROBABLE is that he was lost.

UPDATE especially since a student pilot was involved.

Let me explain something to those of you who have never flown an aircraft. There are no street signs up there and from 5,000 feet most all buildings look alike.

Grow up people.

But Paul, what are you REAL... (Below threshold)

But Paul, what are you REALLY mad about?

Not quite sure why you are ... (Below threshold)

Not quite sure why you are lashing out at everyone else here Paul. Nobody has called you names. YOU maintained that he was simply lost, but then you said you don't know why he was there. If he was simply lost then we would know exactly why he was there, BECAUSE HE WAS LOST. Obviously you are having trouble keeping up. But instead you immediately resort to name calling. Grow up yourself.

Thanks for link Paul. Did y... (Below threshold)

Thanks for link Paul. Did you read the line "Henderson described Sheaffer as an experienced pilot who should have known to avoid restricted airspace". Anyone with 1/2 a brain could distinguish the friggin WHITE HOUSE and CAPITOL from other buildings. ESPECIALLY from ONLY 5000 feet. Did he think he was flying over "memorial land USA"? He must've also mistaken the flares for UFO's and decided to just keep zig zag'n.

Expertise - I'm mad because... (Below threshold)

Expertise - I'm mad because people can't freaking read!

I never once said the guy was lost much less "maintained" he was lost. I have said that pilots get lost and that him being lost was the most probable explanation of today's events.

Go here.

You most DEFINITELY said he... (Below threshold)

You most DEFINITELY said he got lost Paul, "To most everyone else on cable news, please learn the difference between mountains and molehills. Geeze people, it was a stray aircraft. Pilots get lost too." And don't try to argue that your statement "Pilots get lost too" is just making a point that pilots in general can get lost, because besides that statement, you said "it was a stray aircraft" referring to the plane in question. So YES you DID say he was lost.

rylo, you a pilot?... (Below threshold)

rylo, you a pilot?

D-Hoss thank you for provin... (Below threshold)

D-Hoss thank you for proving the quote that proves your stupidity. You can't read.

Deny, deny, deny Paul. It i... (Below threshold)

Deny, deny, deny Paul. It is quite obvious you said he was lost. Seems you are the one in need of reading/writing comprehension. What exactly did you mean by "Geeze people, it was a stray aircraft." if you didn't mean that it was lost? Please, explain that one to me Paul. Maybe you need a dictionary to look up the word stray.

Bet that student pilot was ... (Below threshold)

Bet that student pilot was shitting his pants. My first cross countries were scary enough and I didn't have fighter jets firing flares at me.

Still wierd that the "very experienced" pilot who was also on the plane let them get that lost. And then did not respond to repeated attempts to turn back.

Paul, from 5,000 feet buildings are pretty recognizable especially in cities that are as recognizable as DC with odd shaped domed buildings and big tall pointy looking things.

5,000 feet is only five times the height of the Empire State building, or from a mile away, most larger buildings are very visible as long as you are not flying towards the sun on a hazy day.

Oh, and about the roadsign thing, there is an old pilot joke about the the definition of IFR -- I Follow Roads. Even usuing only dead reckoning, it is hard to get that lost -- the charts and the geographic detail in that area are not too challenging, not like flying over water or desert. Or, when you get lost, you get on the radio, there are ways to find out where you are without sounding like an idiot. To venture far into a no fly zone that you knew was there is a tad bit worse.

Hopefully this can be used as a dry run to perfect evacuation and response plans for any future threat that may be real.

No, I'm not a pilot. I unde... (Below threshold)

No, I'm not a pilot. I understand your wanting to defend a fellow aviator but I cannot believe you haven't once said this guy did anything wrong. Even if he did just stray off course (mistake #1), he did not heed several warnings to remove his aircraft from the area (BIG mistake #2). I'm not saying he should be treated like a terrorist, but a complete bonehead, sure.

You really are not capable ... (Below threshold)

You really are not capable of rational thought are you.

There are thousands of stray aircraft a year. This was not that big a deal. Before 9/11 about 4 planes per year would cross into WH airspace. The main reason it has gone down is that people pay more attention post 9/11. If you count the number of planes that stray into restricted airspace of some kind, they number in the thousands every year. It is not unusual.

What has happened here is that you mouthed off about him NOT being lost. (a claim you have no clue about) THEN you claimed he zig zagged into restricted airspace (another claim you don't know shit about) then when I called you on it, you tried to play stupid word games to avoid that fact you are a clueless jackass.

What exactly are you trying to argue??? He was NOT lost and he was a terrorist????

Good luck with that whack job theory.

Why not step back and just accept that we don't have the full story but it was probably human error. How hard is it?

Also,He was flying... (Below threshold)


He was flying around heavily controlled airspace and at least two major ATC's. MANY people were trying to contact him way before the jets showed up.

See Paul, even a pilot disg... (Below threshold)

See Paul, even a pilot disgrees with you. Your awfully determined to make excuses for this guy. Was it you in that plane? Are you posting now from the cockpit? Keep your head up and watch where you're going please.

See Paul, even a pilot disa... (Below threshold)

See Paul, even a pilot disagrees with you. Your awfully determined to make excuses for this guy. Was it you in that plane? Are you posting now from the cockpit? Keep your head up and watch where you're going please. lol

I don't disagree with Paul,... (Below threshold)

I don't disagree with Paul, I think the guy was probably just lost.

I just think it's strange that an experienced pilot reacted the way he did.

rylo I'm not defending anyo... (Below threshold)

rylo I'm not defending anyone.

To say it was probably human error is not defending him, it is stating the obvious. You got a better explanation?

My point thru all of this is that people who don't know shit about what they are talking about are spouting things that are patently stupid.

But for the record we don't (yet) know what he ignored or didn't.

That he flew into WH airspace defined he screwed up. (once) What he did or didn't do after that we don't know yet. -- The media claimed repeatedly that he went into and out of restricted airspace. Now that looks to be not true. Use the 48 hour rule.

In the mean time, people who don't know anything about aircraft spouting off at the mouth just look stupid to those of us who know a little about the subject.

mesa I'm trying to type a l... (Below threshold)

mesa I'm trying to type a long post but I am busy. PROBABLY the student was navigating and screwed up.

It can not be stressed enough that the senior pilot (AKA Pilot in Command) was ultimately responsible. The FAA will pull his ticket even if the other guy screwed up. It was "his aircraft."

The way things like this usually happen is the flight instructor trusts his student and gets lazy. Then when they buzz the WH the finger pointing begins. The FAA solved this long ago. The "Pilot in Command" is responsible. PERIOD.

But from an explainer point of view, it is like two outfielders going for same fly ball. They both stop because they think the other has it.

This is only speculation obviously but I'd give you 100:1 odds I'm right. It happens every day. Just not over the WH.

No Paul, my argument was th... (Below threshold)

No Paul, my argument was that TO ME, it didn't seem this person was simply lost after disregarding several warnings. To me, and the others who work ACROSS THE STREET from the White House, we had no idea what he was doing there, but it was not a small deal. You brushed it off as him simply being lost. If you were'nt such an asshole who is so quick to jump all over everyone you might have stopped to get a point of view from someone who got evacuated and watched the planes overhead. So no, I don't know jack shit about what he was doing there, and you know even LESS than I do. And by the way, it is way more than 4 planes per year that go into restricted airspace around the Capitol, there was a statement earlier today that it is more like 4 a DAY, but most of them aren't fucking retards and listen to the tower when warned. But you already knew that didn't you. You state that all I wanted to do was play word game?! Look in the mirror Paul. Several people have pointed out flaws in your post and all you do is tell them they can't read.

You're correct abt 48hrs. L... (Below threshold)

You're correct abt 48hrs. Lets let the facts come out. Then we can re-address this guy being a complete moron in how he handled the situation.

OH sorry Mesa, didn't see y... (Below threshold)

OH sorry Mesa, didn't see you flew -- then you know all that.

Another thing all of you ha... (Below threshold)

Another thing all of you have missed. ATC knew it was a small slow craft.

Had it been a jet they would have reacted differently. Very differently.

"I'm from Iowa. I only wor... (Below threshold)

"I'm from Iowa. I only work in DC."

hee hee... love it when Pau... (Below threshold)

hee hee... love it when Paul says "Bite Me."

Figuratively- of course.

Who here thought ATC didn't... (Below threshold)

Who here thought ATC didn't know it was a small craft? Who here thought they would'nt act differently if it had been a jet? I don't remember anyone missing those points. You don't have to be an aviator to figure that out.

I'm a recreational pilot, a... (Below threshold)

I'm a recreational pilot, and practically the entire 'navigation' method of the student pilot is knowing what in the heck your landmarks are. And if I approach (not enter - just approach) any of the many restricted areas around Seattle (a nuclear sub base, a naval air base, a major AF base) you get told what direction to fly. Quickly.

Back to the topic, while we... (Below threshold)
PJ the Great:

Back to the topic, while we're at it can someone please ask the ladies and gents of the press to stop asking where they go when they take the President to "a secure area?" Do they honestly believe that one day the Press Secretary will accidentally slip up and answer them? BTW, my favorite part was when the Fox guy suggested that we take the plane away from the little rich kid and make his Daddy pay the bill. That plane probably cost less than the commenter's car.

So has a radar track for th... (Below threshold)
Cousin Dave:

So has a radar track for the plane been published yet? Anyone know for sure if it had an operating transponder?

Seems kind of odd that a flying school is doing primary instruction in that area, between the restricted areas and Reagan National's Class A airspace (do they still call it that?).

And Paul, I used to think that journalistic cluelessness about aviation was a genetic gap of some kind. Then, I started to realize that the problem was much wider than that. I'm revealing my age here, but years ago I posted a rant to rec.aviation about how the AP misidentified a 737 involved in a mishap as a MD80. (There are differences that would be obvious to the casual observer, such as the fact that the 737 has its engines under the wings and the MD80 has them on the tail.) A lawyer responded on the group that he was equally frustrated with journalists who were habitually unable to understand basic facts about courtrooms and trials, such as what the difference is between a prosecution witness and a defense witness.

That was the moment that I started to realize how bankrupt the American MSM is, and has been for a long time.

Lol, just heard on Fox th... (Below threshold)

Lol, just heard on Fox that the plane "was not making the appropriate squawking noises".

If it turns out to be true that they flew into restricted airspace with their transponder turned off or squawking the wrong code it will really add to the list of screw ups by the two on this plane.

I wonder what that "squawk" sounds like.

Hey Paul,you must ... (Below threshold)

Hey Paul,

you must be in a pissy mood today.... I like FOX news!!!


Regardless of how this inci... (Below threshold)

Regardless of how this incident happened, I have NO SYMPATHY for inconvenienced members of our government. After all, they are the ones who continue to allow our sieve-like borders to admit anyone who might wish to kill Americans.

Paul, I'd have to s... (Below threshold)

I'd have to say that you did ineed imply the guy was just lost in your post. (I agree whole-heartedly). But then in your first rebuttal you did write "We don't know why he was there." Not to be a semantic ass but they ARE mutually exclusive. You either KNOW why he was there (lost) or you DO NOT KNOW (maybe lost, maybe not...who knows?).

You cannot claim he's just a stray if you don't know for sure...and by your own admission you didn't know. You can suggest he was probably a stray. But you can't say it's no big deal until we know for sure.One doesn't need to be a pilot to know that.

I'm not a pilot but I've jumped out of a lot of airplanes in my day...and there's no way in hell that a pilot on VFR is going to mistake the Whitehouse, the capital, and the Washington monument, for anything but what they are from 5000 ft and clear skies. And if he was IFR, What the hell was the instructor ACTUALLY doing!?

Over all- I agree with your post. Journalists are f*cking idiots that couldn't pass physics 101... and so they are barely qualified to write, let alone write with some degree of competency about anything in the least bit technical.

Private airplanes must have... (Below threshold)
jack rudd:

Private airplanes must have and use radio communications ONLY while in controlled airspace.
Some airplanes in the midwest always fly in uncontrolled airspace, and they are not required to have radios at all.

Let's see: these brainiacs ... (Below threshold)

Let's see: these brainiacs knew around 11:40ish that some teeny plane was headed toward the capitol 75 miles out, getting closer, closer, closer, no contact -- but hey if they really think it's a threat, they don't scramble the jets til 12/noon? (3 miles out)? Close enough to scatter whatever potentially hazardous contents over all the scattering knuckleheads....geez, makes perfect sense to me. (it's one way to permanently evacuate the capitol)

Meanwhile: THE LATEST NEWS they don't give a flying flip about and which doesn't register on the radar of TPTB (the powers that be --including MSM):

WAGES for regular workers WORSEN: low wages going lower, high deficits, corporate & business crime/greed/irresponsibility, disappearing pensions and benefits, no health care ... the american worker (the american citizen) continues to get the shaft, especially from the republicans --- the values crowd which 'values PROFITS over people' any day of the week.

They can ALL be EVACUATED for a very very very long time as far as I'm concerned. (that goes for the press corps too)

The "squawk" makes n... (Below threshold)
jack rudd:

The "squawk" makes no noise. It's just a term for the transponder transmission at whatever frequency it's set to.

Also, "class A" airspace is that which is above 18000 feet. Presumably the reference was to class B (or C ?) airspace around Reagan.

Why do I get the distinct f... (Below threshold)

Why do I get the distinct feeling that if the prior poster had added a Chimpy McHitler, a couple War for Oils, and a half dozen Halliburtons, that their comments would directly mirror those found on the DU ?

How long did it take for the moonbats to blame this plane incident on Karl Rover ?

Though I should never be shocked, I have to admit that even I was surprised that Atrios trotted out allegations from Larry freaking Flynt as being the nail in the coffin for the Bolton nomination.

I do not think it would be possible for the conservatives to write a script better than what the Dems do when left to their own devices !

My prior post was referring... (Below threshold)

My prior post was referring to that pissed citizen, not jack rudd, though I suspect that was quite obvious.

Jack,That's why I ... (Below threshold)


That's why I was laughing.

It was funny to hear them say so seriously that "the wrong squawking noises" were coming from the plane.

Next time I ident I will listen a little closer.

"1200! AWWWWK! 1200!"... (Below threshold)
Paul Zrimsek:

"1200! AWWWWK! 1200!"

Geeze people, it was a s... (Below threshold)

Geeze people, it was a stray aircraft. Pilots get lost too.

Damn... It seems like I heard the exact same thing on all the news channels at about 8:49 AM on 9/11/01.

Then the second plane hit...

I am not willing to take such a chance again- this plane should have been shot down.

OK cro- >You canno... (Below threshold)

OK cro-

>You cannot claim he's just a stray if you don't know for sure...and by your own admission you didn't know.

OK, Clearly the pilot DID NOT file a flight plan that put them directly over the Whitehouse. So I DO KNOW he "strayed" into the restricted airspace. That is self-evident.

That does not tell us WHY he did.

YES they strayed into restricted airspace. What is "what" happened.

That they were probably lost would answer "WHY" it happened, not "what." Don't confuse the 2.

It is simple logic.

They just showed that Loftu... (Below threshold)

They just showed that Loftus segment again.

What a goof, looks like they found him under a bridge somewhere.

Apparently, we now know (th... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

Apparently, we now know (though, at the time it was occurring, only those with E.S.P. 'knew') for sure it was an honest mistake.

The question is: was this plane allowed to get too close for safety? I'd say evacuating the WH and Congress means the answer is 'yes'.
If so, terrorists now know that they can fly upwind close to, but not over, our Congress and White House, dropping whatever chem, bio or radiologicals they have. That is big news.

If planes do this 'all the time', then those planes should be shot down 'all the time'. Soon, planes won't do it at all.

Any pilot whether student, ... (Below threshold)
sammy small:

Any pilot whether student, instructor, or PIC, whether lost or not that manages to fly into DC controlled airspace in this day and age without the proper radio and transponder contact should never ever fly an airplane again. They are a hazard to the public. These are the kind of jerks that cause midairs by having their heads completely up their asses. If the FAA doesn't revoke their licenses, then they are not providing any credible oversight at all.

BILL: "Say Fred, does that... (Below threshold)

BILL: "Say Fred, does that look like an F-18 right off your wing?"
FRED: "Shadup idiot, that's an F-16. Are you a pilot? You can't be. You know nothing."
BILL: "But"
FRED: "Shadup I said, I'm working on something."
BILL: "Say, that looks like the White House, and there is the Washington Monument."
FRED: Those are cloud formations idiot. You are not a pilot, you know nothing...shadup."
BILL: "Fred, I think I know the White House if I see it. Look, those people are doing a Chinese fire drill down there!"
FRED: "Swamp gas only. Only real pilots can tell."
BILL: "Do they really let small planes practice dive-bombing the White House?"
FRED: "Yeah, just put a 'Student Driver' sign in the back window and you can get away with anything. Besides we'll be in Rome in a few minutes anyway."
BILL: "Are you really a pilot Fred?"
FRED: "No not yet, but I'm working on my arrogance. Let's go see what that Blackhawk is going to shoot."

I used to like reading Paul... (Below threshold)

I used to like reading Paul's posts, but lately he's become a blowhard.

First it was the Evolution fiasco, then the Mormon baptism thing, and now this pilot issue.

It's one thing to have a lively debate, but once you start throwing out "jackass", "idiot", and "f*ing moron", then you're no better than the DU crowd.

BTW Paul, just because you have some piloting skills, why do you presume to know more than somebody who was actually on the ground as it unfolded? Don't you think this person could add a different perspective to the incident? Or perhaps it's because when somebody challenges your world view, you automatically resort to insults. Isn't this what we criticize the loony left of doing daily?

Kevin, I think you need to start reeling in Paul because lately he's been taking a 'wizz' on the Wizbang readers.


Paul, You can see t... (Below threshold)

You can see the definition of "stray" here. The key part of the definition is to WANDER WITHOUT FIXED PURPOSE.

When you first heard this info, you did not know whether this aircraft was in restricted airspace on accident (a stray) or whether he was violating airspace restrictions on purpose in order to attack (maybe with bio weapons) the capitol.

Before you explain simple logic to people, you ought to have a firm grasp of vocabulary. Your statements are LOGICALLY contradictory because you do not understand the proper definition of "stray". You take it (apparently) to mean being in the wrong place....when it more properly means being in the wrong place accidently.

All of this does not negate the accuracy of the rest of your remarks.... ie. there's no need to shoot the guy down, there's no need for the jabbering class to go nuts.

Oops. My bad, Jay Tea made ... (Below threshold)

Oops. My bad, Jay Tea made the post about Mormons.

Paul, sorry for the mixup.

OK, a perfectly good discus... (Below threshold)

OK, a perfectly good discussion has been ruined by an argument over semantics.

The way I saw it, what Paul said wasn't mutually exclusive. He said that: 1. Pilots sometimes get lost. This is true. He then said, 2. We don't know what they were doing or thinking. That's true too. He never said "I know for a fact they were lost, and I don't know what they were doing up there."

And that's all I'll say about that.

I've never seen John Loftus on TV - I've heard him on the radio. He's good on the radio, at least.

I disagree...the discussion... (Below threshold)

I disagree...the discussion whether the aircraft should be shot down or not is ENTIRELY over the meaning of "stray". Stray aircraft should not be gunned out of the air.... those venturing into restricted airspace with an apparent purpose should be.

The rest of the discussion is simply about the stupidity of the chattering classes. Since nobody disagrees with that characterization, it's hardly a discussion, it's preeching to the choir.

OK Cro....What was... (Below threshold)

OK Cro....

What was his apparent purpose?

Unless you can read minds I'm not sure how you could have figured it out.

sorry to bust your rhetorical bubble.

>You can see the definition... (Below threshold)

>You can see the definition of "stray" here.

>I disagree...the discussion whether the aircraft should be shot down or not is ENTIRELY over the meaning of "stray".

Well, Cro all I can tell you is that if you think the decision makers here should have been looking up word "stray" in the dictionary to decide wether or not to kill a few dozen people by knocking the plane out the air -- well -- you're an idiot.

>Paul, just because you hav... (Below threshold)

>Paul, just because you have some piloting skills, why do you presume to know more than somebody who was actually on the ground as it unfolded?

Well-- If they don't have any clue how an aircraft works, their geographic location won't suddenly make them any more qualified to discuss aviation.

The fact he looked up and saw a plane hardly gives him the skill set to discuss the issue, now does it?

By your definition, the janitor in an ER is qualified to give medical advice because his "on the ground."

>Don't you think this person could add a different perspective to the incident?

Yes, one of ignorance.

Yes, he can "add a different perspective" but what is the value of another perspective if it is a perspective of ignorance? (see above)

Diversity of perspective is way over-rated in this country.


Did you think thru anything you typed?

Here, come the "idiot" rema... (Below threshold)

Here, come the "idiot" remarks from Paul again. Seriously, I have no idea why Kevin keeps you around. If it's to bring this whole site down closer to DU standards then I guess it makes sense. So in that spirit, you are a fucking douche-bag Paul.

I'll ignore your inability ... (Below threshold)

I'll ignore your inability to argue without descending into childish name-calling and return to the matter at hand.

#1. The pilots of the intercepting aircraft would be the ones to determine what the difference between wandering and "apparent purpose" would be. For myself I would think an aircraft making a direct line for the Capitol Dome would be considered to have an "apparent" purpose. That's a SUBJECTIVE decision...that's what our AF officers get paid for. If you want a real live example of apparent purpose... look at the flight path of the first 9-11 aircraft... a bee-line for the WTC.

#2. You stated unequivocably that "We have no idea why he was there." That sounds like you don't know. In your original post you were implying that this was a lost pilot. So you were making an assumption unsupported by then any known fact. Assumptions like that were rampant for about 15 minutes on 9-11... then the 2nd airplane hit and removed all doubt.

#3. I sincerely doubt politicians were looking up the definition of the word "stray". They probably knew what that means... as would the pilots of the intercepting F-16's. But if that definition and the behaviour of the intruding aircraft did not coincide..you would have seen a shoot down.

#4. Frankly I would have rather seen a mistaken shoot down than a successful attack.

#5. If you reply, please try to remember that I have addressed you in a respectful manner. You may think that the "bite" to your commentary is witty, but it only serves to demonstrate the weakness of your arguments.

Paul you really are the tru... (Below threshold)

Paul you really are the true idiot here. When talking about being on the ground we were discussing the plane zig-zagging or not. I believe that a person on the ground WATCHING the plane would have much better input then you would no matter how much aviation knowledge you have. So according to your aviation knowledge Paul, what did YOU SEE happen? As far as your Janitor example, a Janitor who sees someone in an ER start having a seizure and fall over and break his head open is in a much better position to tell the doctors WHAT HAPPENED then a doctor two floors up. What a fucking stupid argument.

Paul, I'm just waiting for ... (Below threshold)

Paul, I'm just waiting for you to start yelling "Liar! Creepy Liar!"

I'm surprised that nobody i... (Below threshold)

I'm surprised that nobody is talking about the size of the plane.

The Cessna 150 is TINY. It's the flying equivalent of a two-seat Yugo. Or maybe a Vespa.

In order to carry two people, the pilot has to take off with less than full fuel tanks, or the plane might not get off the ground.

So, it has all of the destructive power of a Yugo.

And yes - it could be carrying chemical, bio, or nuclear material. But so could that Yugo on the street. In fact, that (a car) was the scenario for the TOPOFF3 exercise in NJ last month.

Little planes are simply not that much of a threat.

(Since we're talking about credentials - I hold a Private Pilot license - Airplane Single-Engine Land)

Paul,Man, I could ... (Below threshold)


Man, I could not agree with you more. Loftus’ comments on Fox News yesterday had me seeing red. Sensationalist comments like his just play into the terrorist’s hands by spreading fear and paranoia. I really enjoyed John and Martha King’s informative interview on CNN, and was glad to finally see some rational perspective from the media.

I will say that the pilots of the C-150 really screwed up. However, the Washington ADIZ isn’t working either. It’s too big, restrictive and complicated. I believe it really just provides a false sense of security for DC. There are easier and more effective delivery methods than a small GA plane. After all, wasn't the second worst terrorist act in the US executed by using a bomb detonated in a truck?

> the Washington ADIZ isn’t... (Below threshold)

> the Washington ADIZ isn’t working either. It’s too big, restrictive and complicated. I believe it really just provides a false sense of security for DC. There are easier and more effective delivery methods than a small GA plane. After all, wasn't the second worst terrorist act in the US executed by using a bomb detonated in a truck?

YUP- You get it.

Unfortunately a whole bunch of jackasses who don't know shit about what they are talking about think they should be taken seriously.

I don't tell surgeons how to operate but people with no freaking clue how aviation works think they have all the answers. Then when someone points out that other people --you know-- with a little knowledge about the topic disagree, they get all pissy.

From the Senators to the goofball reporters to the whiners on this thread. Jackasses one and all.

>Paul you really are the tr... (Below threshold)

>Paul you really are the true idiot here. When talking about being on the ground we were discussing the plane zig-zagging or not. I believe that a person on the ground WATCHING the plane would have much better input then you would no matter how much aviation knowledge you have.

OH so now you are claiming YOU SAW it do that???? That's funny.... The reports in the media now say that it never happened.

You proclaimed loudly that he was not lost now you seem to be claiming he was zigzagging when you have no freaking clue.

Again- you don't know shit so you make stuff up.

You're a liar, a creepy liar.

D-Hoggs versus reality... (Below threshold)

D-Hoggs versus reality

D-Hoggs: The pilot didn't simply "get lost".

Reality: Pilot, student pilot who approached Washington were "lost"


Isn't it interesting that t... (Below threshold)

Isn't it interesting that the same people who dont have a clue about the U.S. airspace system, or the rule of operation within it, are the very same people who somehow manage to draw the conclustion that a cessna 150, or anything similar for that matter, has the same kind of destructive capabilility as something that operates at the weight or speed of something as large or larger than a 727?
I agree completely with the janitor analogy. Sure he may think he knows what is going on, but are you going to be treated on a janitors observation, or would you consider the doctors assesment a bit more valid.
Note to hoggs: If you want to be an argumentative ass fine, but at least try to base some of your opinions in fact next time. Let me guess you would be a janitor, right?

And for the record Me: private pilot, single engine land, 500+ hours , many of those logged in a 150.






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