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A couple questions of ethics

Recently, I happened to have two ethical dilemmas arise, and I thought I'd toss them out to the Wizbang readership to kick around.

1) Recently, I got into an argument with a commenter. During the course of the argument, I looked up the IP where he/she was posting from (I was curious if they were a frequent commenter under another name, and recently I had a troll posting under literally a dozen names or so). It turned out that the person was posting from Big Generic Retailer. It was also outside the hours Big Generic Retailer is usually open. Should I have "outed" the commenter, who was being a real pain in the butt? I thought about it briefly, but decided against it. The commenter was being annoying as hell, but hadn't crossed any ethical boundaries, and to attempt to retaliate (which it clearly would have been, on my behalf) would have been tacky and unethical.

2) Recently, while attending a Place Of Adult Entertainment, I thought I recognized one of the Entertainers. I am 99% certain she works for Generic Big Stodgy Company, and I occasionally have dealings with her through my day job at Generic Big Company. But while I might get a little grief for attending Place Of Adult Entertainment, I am quite certain she would be in a world more trouble for working at Place Of Adult Entertainment while also holding down a job at Generic Big Stodgy Company.

My dilemma is this: I always thought her attractive, but never enough beyond her appearance drew me in. And if this is indeed the same lady, I was definitely right in my thoughts about her physical appeal. How do I acknowledge my meeting her there at her day job? How do I reassure her I have absolutely no intention of "outing" her to the daytime employer? Or do I simply pretend I don't connect "M" of Place Of Adult Entertainment with "J" of Generic Big Stodgy Company?

Update: after expensive -- er, extensive -- research, I must come to the sad conclusion that the lady in question who works at Place Of Adult Entertainment bears a remarkable resemblance to lady who works at Generic Big Stodgy Company (similar hair color/length, similarly angular face, similarly thin nose with squared-off tip), there are enough differences (voice, specifics of physique, details of face) to make me think there may be a family connection, but now I am 99% certain they are NOT one and the same.

Oh, well, it was a fun thought and a fun topic while they lasted.

If anyone would like to belatedly help fund my research, I hear wonderful things about this thing called "PayPal..."


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Comments (32)

1.) It seems that when you ... (Below threshold)

1.) It seems that when you enter the blogosphere you open yourself up to all kinds of personalities, some of which are quite unpleasant. It's just part of the turf and you must grin and bear it (up to credible threats of course).
2.) As long as she is not infringing on your rights, let it go. She's free to do with her body what she wishes on her own time. Outing her would be wrong.

Just my 2p

Jay: good for you for not r... (Below threshold)

Jay: good for you for not retaliating against the commenter, who may or may not have been doing something that would have gotten them in trouble. Absent evidence that he is doing something illegal, the issue should be between him and his employer.

As for Ms. M, I think Miss Manners would suggest that ettiquete demands that you act as if you have not seen her outside of her daytime employment.... until such time as she tells you she saw you, thinks you're hot and asks for your telephone number.

But the real issue is... every hour you spend at Place of Adult Entertainment is an hour you're not posting. Where are your priorities, man?

Why would it be any of your... (Below threshold)

Why would it be any of your business what she does when she's not working?

And trust me, walking up to her and saying "I know what you do as a side job, but don't worry I won't tell anyone" will come off as really creepy.

Which it is.

You don't retaliate against... (Below threshold)
Just Me:

You don't retaliate against the poster in #1. Very unethical I think, unless they were doing something illegal.

As for the woman-let it go, just pretend like you never saw her.

jw, re-read the post. Jay ... (Below threshold)

jw, re-read the post. Jay isn't asking if he should out her or not, he's asking if he should say .anything. to the woman in question to reassure her that he _won't_.

I'd say 'what happened in a P.O.A.E. stays there'. Zero--as in NO--acknowledgement during business hours, not even a waggled eyebrow. Should recognition occur at a future visit, you can offer a reassurance then.

Dr. McCain will assist with... (Below threshold)

Dr. McCain will assist with your dilemnas.

1. Definitely no, you made the correct choice. If a commentor is outside the bounds of Kevin's comment policy, ban his ass. If not, you have to suck it up and deal with confrontation, as we all do in life. Outing someone could even have a chilling effect on those who disagree with you more amiably.

2. Since you and the madam both attend the same Place of Adult Entertainment, it seems you have more in common than you are allowing. So this is an opportunity rather than a diliemna. Next time you are at Generic Big Stodgy Company, slip your phone number and a fiver down her shirt.

Case 1: You were absolutely... (Below threshold)

Case 1: You were absolutely, positively right not to out the person. What happens in the blogosphere should stay in the blogosphere.

Case 2: Do not mention a word to the girl while she is at Generic Big Stodgy Company. What happens in Places of Adult Entertainment should stay in Places of Adult Entertainment.

This case requires further research. You must return to Place of Adult Entertainment, seek out the entertainer of concern, and initiate some personal interaction (lap/table dance, VIP lounge chat, etc.). Many, many, times, if necessary.

Yes, this will cost you some money. But you must 1) confirm within about 60% certainty that she is the Generic Big Stodgy Company employee, and 2) establish trust with her. Big tips will accelerate this process.

With any luck, she will eventually recognize you as a day job acquaintance, and she will broach the topic first. But, if after 6-8 months of regular one-on-one interaction at the PAE, if you are still not sure, or if she has not mentioned it, then it is time for you to mention GBSC, and see what happens.

And remember, Drew Carey met his girlfriend at a PAE. It can happen to you.

If he's using an IP that se... (Below threshold)

If he's using an IP that seems like it should be unavalable outside of business hours he may be masking or on the night crew, like maybe a janitor. IPs can be deceptive, I run a US ip in Mexico because most online brokerages aren't willing to do business outside the US and my provider would cut me off they knew I was using their dish down here. The exact same service costs twice as much if it goes through an authorized Mexican dealer.

Re situation 2: Say nothing... (Below threshold)
BC Monkey:

Re situation 2: Say nothing, do nothing. Even of one of your coworkers says "hey, she looks like a girl down at X", say you don't think so.

Knowing someone's secret is a form of power over them, and most of the secrets that we learn come with the burden of someone's trust and the knowledge of the consequences to you if you betray the trust. Here, you've found someone's secret, without that trust. Revealing her secret may do her untold damage, not just to her employment but to every other area of her life.

Leave it alone, and forget you ever noticed anything.

Jay, I think that in the fi... (Below threshold)

Jay, I think that in the first situation, you did exactly the right thing. Yes, it's great to slap an idiot down, but (and sorry if I have a little hero worship [rolls eyes] going on here) you're one of the big guys and need to hold up a standard of professionalism. You did. Let it go... but *I'd* ban their a** ;-)

In the second situation, by all means, introduce yourself to that lady and see if there's anything there to cultivate a personal relationship. However, a gentleman would never refer to such a possible harmless personal indescretion that a lady in whom he is interested may have committed.

If the relationship flourishes, AND you find out it was indeed your lady, then - perhaps - in later years you may obliquely mention it. Otherwise, "it never happened."

Just my $0.02

Excellent work here at Wizbang - keep it up! You're a daily stop (when I'm not on vacation...).

-- R'cat

"My dilemma is this: I alwa... (Below threshold)

"My dilemma is this: I always thought her attractive, but never enough beyond her appearance drew me in. And if this is indeed the same lady, I was definitely right in my thoughts about her physical appeal. How do I acknowledge my meeting her there at her day job? How do I reassure her I have absolutely no intention of "outing" her to the daytime employer? Or do I simply pretend I don't connect "M" of Place Of Adult Entertainment with "J" of Generic Big Stodgy Company?"

Dear Mr. Wiz-Bang, (can I call you WB?) the answer to No. 2 is simplicity itself. Next time you're at the PAE, ask if you can buy her a drink (but not the pink champaigne) and strike up a conversation if she accepts and comes to your table. Of course you should pretend you don't recognize her outside the bar but ask at some point if she has a day job, and if so what. That gives her the freedom to answer your question, one way or the other.

If she fesses up, that show's she trusts you, and maybe you move to step 2. If she denies having the day job, your out is the fiction -- but be very casual the way you say this -- that you only asked because she reminded you vaguely of someone you knew at Big Stodgy Company. Make some other offhand remark about how life is funny like that, yadda, yadda, yadda, so she's reassured you won't out her. That way you preserve whatever "relationship" you have in the alternate universe that is tha PAE.

If it were me, I would act ... (Below threshold)

If it were me, I would act as though I had never seen my business associate working at the adult entertainment venue. Of course, you would have to be a good actor to pull it off.

I scanned the comments, and... (Below threshold)

I scanned the comments, and I think they're in line with my initial reactions:

1. You're an opinionated blogger and you're bound to attract assholes who want to flame and harass you. It comes with the territory. You'll also find that most of your loyal readers probably log on from work, and they are probably breaking their companies' policy by doing so--just like the asshole you are tempted to out. Don't do it. It would be hypocritical to out the asshole and not your fans. It would also be grossly unfair to fuck with a person's livlihood just because he disagrees with you. After all, your posts do troll for comments.

2. I've worked with legal secretaries who strip, and one was a very close friend. Although I've never "discovered" one while out at a club, I have had them invite me out to their performances. In talking with them, it became very clear that one should not broach the topic outside the club. Not only do they want to avoid being outed, they really are not interested in talking to their patrons outside the club. The dancers I knew were pretty intellegent, and had no respect for the customers. They considered themselves to be exploiting the patrons, rather than the other way around. Do not out yourself as a patron. They are not likely to respect you.

Whatever you decide, Jay, d... (Below threshold)

Whatever you decide, Jay, do it purposefully. For the second dilemma in particular, be sure to yell "To the Shaggin' Wagon!", whatever your choice.

McCain has the best idea, t... (Below threshold)

McCain has the best idea, though a tip at the ESC would probably be insulting if less than a $50.

Man! I haven't been to a PO... (Below threshold)

Man! I haven't been to a POAE in years... I gotta get out more.

Something like this happened to me (years ago) and I decided it was better to be a gentleman about it and leave it up to her to mention it if she wanted to. She did not. Remember, it's called a "gentleman's club" right?

On item 1, keep your mouth ... (Below threshold)

On item 1, keep your mouth shut.

On item 2, keep your mouth shut.

I just had another idea wit... (Below threshold)

I just had another idea with respect to situation #2. (You are so lucky to have access to such advice).

While you are performing further research, you should try a little “Subliminal Man” action.

While you’re talking with her, casually let the word “Wizbang!” slip out. You know, soft and low, but kinda like you have Tuorette’s Syndrome. Then a little later, maybe drop a “Jay Tea.”

I understand Whizbang! is quite popular among the Adult Entertainer crowd. She may already be a fan!

But just to be on the safe side, you probably ought to also let loose with a subliminal “Daily Koz”.

#1) If working in the offic... (Below threshold)

#1) If working in the offices, altho normal business hours is 9-5, there are people working there at all hours. Especially if in IT.

#2) Say nothing at all. What she does has nothing to do with you.

Responding to Q2, I've actu... (Below threshold)

Responding to Q2, I've actually been in this position several times, as well as having dated a few "dancers".

The answer depends upon your intentions/aspirations toward her, and how much you actually see her at her day job. Further research is definitely required, and the only place to ask her about this would be inside the POAE. But IGNORE those people who are telling you to tip big! That is absolutely the worst thing you can do!

The right way to do this would be to go into the POAE fairly early in the evening...say, about 9pm if she works nights. Late in the night is not good as the women become more interested in raking in as much cash in as little time as possible. When you see her on stage, tip her several times (singles), at least 3-4 if possible. On the last time tell her to come see you and tell her where you're sitting.

Then wait for her to show up. You need to be extremely cool, relaxed, and present the attitude that you're just there to relax and enjoy the show. When she comes over, you need to get her to sit down and talk. If she asks you if "you'd like a dance" instead of "do you want company?", then tease her for getting straight to the action.

Most importantly, get her talking as much about her life as you can. You will want to get a dance, maybe two at most, so that she doesn't feel like you're completely wasting her time, and tipping $5-10 would be appropriate and fine. But do not go overboard!

Hopefully while you're talking you'll be able to broach the "day job" subject and find out for sure, but remember the idea here is to be really cool about everything. Then she'll think you're a cool person and if you happen to run across each other in the "real world", it won't be awkward at all.

But DO NOT THROW LOTS OF MONEY AT HER! That's the biggest sign of a non-cool guy, and will cause her to lose respect for you and just see you as an easy mark.

RE: Update and exten... (Below threshold)

RE: Update and extensive research

I didn't know hostesses at POAEs accepted PlayPal, er PayPal.

Oooh, you mean pad your pocket. Silly me.

Jay Tea updates: ... (Below threshold)

Jay Tea updates: after expensive -- er, extensive -- research, I must come...

You're right, Jay. That is sad.

s9,No, your commen... (Below threshold)


No, your comment is sad.

And Jay, unless you ever know this person outside of said establishment in a more social manner (yes, I read the follow up) , it has to be left alone.

And as someone who does not frequent such establishments, but has dated someone that has worked at one -- more pain than gain.

It's a thrill at first, quite expensive in all ways in the long run.

Take a pass.

But, what the hell do I know -- you only live once --if you can find out who it really is.

As a person who used to fre... (Below threshold)

As a person who used to frequent such establishments, I concur with mesablue.

And Jay, I used my comment/your question for a blog post here. Proper linkage included, although I doubt Wizbang will notice both of the hits that might register.

Jolly,Make it thre... (Below threshold)


Make it three hits.

1) I wouldn't "out" this p... (Below threshold)

1) I wouldn't "out" this person to the BGR. If he/she/it is violating company policy, chances are very good that they already know about it and will deal with it themselves. No point getting your hands dirty. (Though if you're talking about who I think you're talking about, I'd have banned his/her/its a** a long time ago. But of course, it's not my call.)

2) The point may be moot, but for future reference don't say a thing to any woman in that situation, either at the GBSC or at the PoAE. If she recognizes you and wants to talk, fine. But unless and until that happens, keep your distance.

Re #2 -- being silent is th... (Below threshold)

Re #2 -- being silent is the "prudent, safe" approach. Bah.

I'd recognize her art form, treat it as an art form, and compliemtn her on it, without the slightest degree of innuendo or double entendre.

People appreciate being compliment for their talents, if you can do it without sounding like a perv.

I love the fact that all th... (Below threshold)

I love the fact that all these great minds think (basically) alike. We indicate a respect for individual privacy and nonabuse of power. I wonder what responses Kos would garner to these questions?

May I suggest, Jay Tea, that you actually have TWO opportunities here, as you have become acquainted with two women whom you find attractive. Why don't you just invite them to lunch?

One at a time, obviously.

goddess, thanks for the adv... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

goddess, thanks for the advice, but my appreciation for her is purely aesthetic. In POAE, they're not allowed to see customers. In GBSC, she's easy on the eyes, but no real chemistry or attraction.

Of course, beggars can't be choosers...


Jay, I have a friend who is... (Below threshold)
Clash City Rocker:

Jay, I have a friend who is a "Doorman" at a very posh PAE, the rule that the girls cannot date the customers is purely fiction. The girl say this for two reasons a) you'll stop asking b)the appearance of improprity (prostitution). He tells me the girls date men they meet there all the time. Go for it, what's the worst that can happen, she'll turn you down in front of all your friends. So what if she does, she's probably a low life ho who has to use her body to earn her drug money, that; or a lesbian, but if she says yes, the sky is the limit, you can brag to all you friends, that "You got it like that", you will be the man at your young republican meetings...

Re 2,Obviously you... (Below threshold)

Re 2,

Obviously you tell her politely that you recognize her. Then it's up to her to persuade you not to tell anyone else.

Late to your party, but her... (Below threshold)

Late to your party, but here's my take on this:

IF you want a relationship OF ANY KIND with this, um, lady, then confront the issues but do so without tone (just saying, bring up whatever is on your mind and talk about it with the other person when it's convenient and comfortable to do so).

IF you DO NOT WANT a relationship of any kind with this person, ignore and look away and maintain the ruse that you didn't see/know what you both know you did see/know, or at least you do.

I note that some people say let it go but that works only if you also want to let the person go...don't anticipate much contact, don't want much contact, can't wait to get miles away from them, hope you never see them again, all that.

However, if this person is someone you either want to or have to interact with at any future time (as in, "want a relationship with" or at least have to have a relationship with), then by all means, confront-away. Just bring it up, straight on, when the moment's there.

I can't see trying to pretend, is my point. Because it never works, also makes those pretending seem very insincere. Which they are by pretending.






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