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Seeking the Facile Mind of the Hewitts and the Malkins

Almost everyone outside Washington D.C. agrees that the Immigration Reform bill cooked up this week by a coalition of Republicans, Democrats, Idiots, Poseurs, Bureaucrats, Gullible, and their assorted staffs, is at best a poorly-designed and incomplete work. For example, in my opinion the bill has some good points and some weak ones, but is useless because it has absolutely no enforcement provisions, as if the federal government will enlist the help of the Keebler Elves to make it work.

But that belief in fairy-tale mechanics is not limited to the proponents of this bill, either. For a long time now, it has been quite the fashion for some people to savagely attack the President and the Congress for whatever they suggest, while presenting no substantive proposal as an alternative. What always happens is that they toss out a goal, like securing the borders, and call it the action, which would be how to make that happen. This is dishonest on its face, especially when it is practiced and repeated by the very people who complain about weak spots in the plans pur forth by the serious people.

This is particularly poor conduct by the media, and there I include the web media and bloggers, especially Hugh Hewitt and Michelle Malkin. There was a time I respected Malkin's well-considered opinion, but she has dived into the sea of 'hate the foreigners' so often and with such clear malice that I cannot consider her work balanced. As for Mr. Hewitt, I generally respect him but have been forced to conclude that on this issue he is not reasonable, and seems unaware that he is using the same rhetorical tactics he has - quite properly - rebuked in others before. So I have a challenge for the Hewitts and the Malkins of the Blogosphere.

The President and the Congress have not been able to come up with an effective, functional plan for securing the borders and addressing Immigration Reform proactively. What specific, detailed plan do you have or know of, which will accomplish the following essential goals:

[] Secure the national borders from constant and pervasive penetration by illegals, and potentially terrorists?

[] Enforce the laws already on the books, which address illegal possession of documents, especially forged and stolen documents, which address employment of illegals by American companies, and which address the disposition of persons found to have entered the United States illegally?

[] Address the presence of more than twelve million foreign nationals already residing in the United States, in a manner which is compliant with the U.S. Constitution, viable given available resources, and realistic regarding the response by those persons to the initiative?

The President has already made specific proposals on these points, and so any claim which effectively tries to take the same suggestion without crediting the President for the idea will be disallowed. Vague homilies such as 'make all illegals leave', or 'we should force businesses to obey the law' will be ridiculed. And in keeping with your own past behavior, ignoring this challenge will allow me to claim that you do not intend to seriously address the issue.

My point is not to harangue or heckle Mr. Hewitt or Ms. Malkin. In the actual case, I frankly do not expect either of them to respond, because neither of them seems interested in solving problems, but only in making a noise about the issue, which is common for media. What I do hope to accomplish, is to remind the reader that complex issues are difficult to sort out in the best of times, and even politicians can be credited with trying to find a good solution with little support or cooperation from the very people who claim they care the most.


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Comments (97)

DJ: Malkin has been a contr... (Below threshold)

DJ: Malkin has been a contributor to VDARE.com for YEARS. You know (no, you don't), the anti-immigration website?

There's a worldwide web out there!

Many Mexicans believe we la... (Below threshold)

Many Mexicans believe we lack the will to stand up for our country and they are right to a large degree - many Americans lack the will to enforce the law for fear of "looking mean-spirited". Mexicans think, if the gringo don't want to stand up for their country, we'll gladly take over.

Then there are the farmers who sound more and more like 19th century plantation owners from the deep south. What they want is cheap, illegal labor and they cry the "economy will suffer" if they don't get 'em - same thing the plantation owners told Abe Lincoln long ago.


Only a small percentage actually pick fruit and veggies - most have flooded into other occupations, driving down wages with their fake ID's, fake or stolen social security numbers, driving without licenses, etc.

Jorge Bush, Jeb Bush, Gonzales, Martinez, Guiteriez....hmmm, do I detect a pattern here?

If President Bush and the a... (Below threshold)

If President Bush and the amnesty crowd are really serious about border security, they should adopt the same mechanism that liberals used in environmenal law. They should include provisions to allow citizen lawsuits for every provision of border security and immigraiton enforcement.

If the government does not hire enough border agents, allow citizens to sue to government to force them to comply. If the government does not build a fence, allow lawsuits to force its construction. If the government waves the documentation requirements, allow citizen lawsuits for negligence of government officials.

When the government allows citizens to sue them for not doing their jobs, them we will know that they are serious. If President Bush and Senator Kennedy allow for everything to be wavied latter on or allow for some symbolic sign-off with no enforcement mechanism.

The government has lied in the past about immigration. Let the citizens to have a role in enforcement or the politicians should shut up.

Good post, DJ.But ... (Below threshold)

Good post, DJ.

But don't be too hard on Malkin and Hewitt.

They, like other mediums (sic) have become a victim of their success. Each and every opinion expressed has an implicit, or explicit entourage which chafes at any divergence or modification. That includes all print or electronic media.

It is a snapshot of political constituencies. Aside from the economic benefits of success, there is the psychological threat of alienation as well as the fear of appearing disloyal to friends(although political hacks seem to suffer less from the latter).

But losing financial support is high up on the list of undesirables. Therefore the more successful a blogger is (ad revenue) the greater the need for justification of previous positions.

It's as old as human history itself.

VDARE.com....damn, there ar... (Below threshold)

VDARE.com....damn, there are some bright folks there, they make most of the webbers look like the high school kids many are.

Besides, VDARE is not anti-immigrant, they (and I am) anti-illegal immigration? Know why? I care about my country, heritage, culture, language, religion, duh, that's why.

Numbers matter kiddies, whether illegal or even legal immigration, numbers matter. For it you don't limit numbers of legal immigrants, there's no point in differentiating between legal and illegal immigration. Legal immigration with "gently coerced" assimilation is good and what it should be.
Anything else is simply inviting colonization (which is happening). ....."such hard workers, good hearted people.....", yeah sure Jorge Busheron.

How do you eat an elephant?... (Below threshold)
Jeff Blogworthy:

How do you eat an elephant? Sure, it seems like an insurmountable task, but doing nothing isn't helping. Locking up our border agents and allowing them to be intimidated isn't helping. Inviting Mexico to defeat our border security and enforcement provisions in our own courts isn't helping. Government agencies (the INS, for instance) turning a blind eye isn't helping. You act as though we have no infrastructure in place already. It starts by resolving to do your job/duty and then doing it from the ground up. We are the most powerful nation on earth and we act as though we are just powerless to prevent incursions along our southern border. How about getting serious about it for a change?

BTW; A big Hat Tip to WIZB... (Below threshold)

BTW; A big Hat Tip to WIZBANG for remaining open to divergent viewpoints, I have noticed an increase of
banning at the slightest of infringements elsewhere.


D.J.,Michelle Malk... (Below threshold)
Dodo David:


Michelle Malkin doesn't hate foreigners. She is anti-illegal immigration. There is a difference between the two.

What gives you the idea that Michelle hates foreigners? Is it because she insists that foreigners immigrate to the USA through legal means, like the way her parents did?

Plus, when did it become the responsibility of bloggers and Media members to solve a problem that members of Congress are supposed to solve? If Michelle Malkin and Hugh Hewitt were running for Congress, then it would be fair to insist that they provide solutions to whatever national problem that they complain about.

As it turns out, Michelle Malkin has used her blog to promote solutions to the problem of illegal immigration. Perhaps you missed reading those particular posts of hers, but I didn't.

Several of us, including so... (Below threshold)

Several of us, including some people you've actually heard of, not just me, have been pushing for months for increased sanctions on employers who, knowingly or carelessly, employ illegals. Maybe superdestroyer just suggested how to make that actually work.

Hmm... let's see.B... (Below threshold)

Hmm... let's see.

Building a fence staffed by boarder patrol agents will be pretty effective at doing point 1. The great thing is that it is easy to come up with a specific plan for this: just adapt whatever the Chinese, the Romans, the Brits, the Indians, the Moroccans, etc. have done. Their walls worked throughout all periods of history to keep people out. That does raise the issue of those who simply skip out on their visas. These you aren't really going to prevent, so you need to have a mechanism to find them when they go astray, that leads to...

For number two, I turn to how the feds got the drinking age to 21 in every state: Mandate that in order for a city or a state to receive federal funds, their law enforcement and civil service agencies must check for proof of legal residence and report violations to the INS. The INS would need to be expanded in order to cope with increasing case load, but if there's one thing Washington is good at, it's expanding bureaucracies. For those states that do not cooperate, specifically those that call themselves "Sanctuary cities.:" think of them as honey pots. Those cities go to the top of the list for federal raids. Expand ICE and unleash them on the poor misguided illegals that really believed a city council could offer them refuge.

For number three: This is actually completely unnecessary, and thus does not need a specific plan, or any plan. Provided that you deport the same number of illegals as those who enter the country illegally, the problem will vanish naturally as either illegals "self deport" due to lack of favorable conditions (see two) or die of old age.

The funny thing about the President's plan is it does nothing to solve the ostensible problem it uses to justify its existence: maintaining a supply of cheap labor. Once the illegals become legal, they stop being cheap, as you not only have to pay minimum wage, but you also have to deal with unionization of those workers, and the demands for improved working conditions, benefits, and wages that come with them. Then you are right back to square one, as your cheap labor has become normal labor.

Ten comments in, and still ... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

Ten comments in, and still nothing specific. Sorry JSchuler, you called your plan specific, but it really just ducked the questions. You never actually said how you'd acocmplish part 1, you seem to think part 3 is unnecessary because those Keebler Elves I mentioned must really exist in your mind, and as for part 2 - you never addressed the real question, whcih was how to do those things you want. Expanding ICE, penalizing cities/businesses which break the law, those are goals, not how you get there, and so you get no points for trying to play a switch game.

Dodo David, I have read Malkin's stuff for a long time and in detail. It's not constructive, it's not reasonable, and it treats millions of people as nondescript parcels of matter to be disposed of, which is impractical and frankly insulting. Just because I don't want millions of illegals to come here, does not mean that they don't count as people.

The combination of RINO fat... (Below threshold)
Atomic Conspiracy:

The combination of RINO fatcats and leftist vermin is an alliance made in HELL, the twenty-first century's version of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact of 1939. Its goal is the same, the dismemberment and subjugation of an independent country.

In some ways the present deal with Satan is worse. It wasn't the Polish leadership itself that sold out its own country to foreign invaders, but that is what Bush and his fellow invasion instigators have done.


From Debbie Schlussel:... (Below threshold)
Atomic Conspiracy:

From Debbie Schlussel:

Aside from the basic absurdities of the Ted Kennedy-George W. Bush Illegal Alien Amnesty agreement reached today, there are these absurdities that I've learned from disgusted high-ranking Homeland Security officials in the know.

1) Temporary Worker Program (TWP) aliens will NOT be checked against the most basic databases-so we have no way of knowing who these aliens are (they can give whatever name they want to give and it must be accepted at face value) and whether they are terrorists or criminals. DHS officials at Citizenship and Immigration Services (CIS) say the TWP applicants will NOT be checked against the TECS (The Enforcement Communication System) or IBIS (InterAgency Border Inspection System) databases (IBIS is part of TECS). Therefore, it is a certainty that many Islamic terrorists and hardened criminals will have a golden ticket into America.

2) Currently, CIS officials are "encouraging" all immigration and citizenship application adjudicators to approve 10 applicants per hour. That means no more than 6 minutes per applicant is spent checking who they are, CURRENTLY. Imagine what will happen under this new Amnesty Bill when over 100,000 people per day must be processed (and their applications are being farmed out to private companies like the one that approved the 9/11 hijackers' visas, after 9/11). Yup, CIS chief Emilio T. Gonzalez-who is too busy giving himself awards along with Michael Chertoff-is forcing employees to rubber-stamp through citizenship applications.

Think that'll change when 30 million new applications (when all family members end up here) come into the mix? Think again.

3) All applicants to the TWP and citizenship parts of the bill have at least a 24-hour until their fingerprints and info go online all over the country. That means they have a 24-hour window to apply at multiple CIS offices to get multiple citizenship documents under various names and identities. There is no check on this.

4) Even where backgrounds are checked and/or applicants are caught with terrorist or criminal problems or inconsistencies, ICE(Immigration & Customs Enforcement)-which investigates and enforces against them-turns down 79% of the referrals it gets from CIS, and those people get to become citizens, anyway. Wonderful.

5) The increased border presence and toughness? Don't hold your breath-this quid for the quo of giving citizenship to millions who don't deserve it-is really not a quid at all. This bill doesn't guarantee that, unlike the Mainstream Media's false reports. All it guarantees is that 6 months or so from now Michael Chertoff promises to give President Bush a plan for what he'll do 18 months beyond . . . when all of them are out of office and heading for shuffleboard and the Early Bird Special in retirement in Miami or Boca or whereever. OH, and by the way, the "increased border security" in the air will be a scant two drones each for thousands of miles of unmanned territory on our northern and southern borders. What a joke.

6) Don Crocetti, Director of CIS' Fraud Detection National Security Unit, is responsible for all the national security background checks at CIS, benefit fraud analysis, etc. He was investigated and censured by congress for his role in the Citizenship USA scandal at INS. Guh-reat!

"The president is so desper... (Below threshold)
Atomic Conspiracy:

"The president is so desperate for a legacy and a domestic policy win that he is willing to sell out the American people and our national security," Tancredo said."

Tancredo just violated Reagan's eleventh commandment, "Thou shalt not speak ill of another Republican", but somehow I suspect that Reagan would approve.

"does not mean that they do... (Below threshold)
Atomic Conspiracy:

"does not mean that they don't count as people."

No one has said that they don't count as people.

Some of us want VERY MUCH for them to count as people - in MEXICO!!!

Lots of noise, lots of veno... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

Lots of noise, lots of venom ... but still no concrete alternatives.

Sadly, as I expected.

Concrete alternative?... (Below threshold)
Atomic Conspiracy:

Concrete alternative?

There you go again.

You are sure trying to get a lot of mileage out of that Johny one-note retort.

It is understandable though, as defending the undefendable is very hard to do otherwise.

I am sure glad that I have not, for whatever reason, decided to take on that task.


How about ENFORCING the law?

If necessary, fine the living S$$$ out of and imprison if needed every business money grubber from the agriculture plantation owners to the ma and pa stores to Wal(made in China)-Mart.

You take away the opportunity for the businesses to hire illegals, then how many will come to the United States?

And how about getting a President and a Senate that are not committing treason against the United States of America?

Read powerlineblog.com's ta... (Below threshold)

Read powerlineblog.com's take on the Cornyn and McCain controversy, and you get an idea of the lack of seriousness on the part of the pro-bill folks.

I'd take the Kyl-Cornyn bill--a serious approach.

This is the proverbial watching of the sausage being made . . .

"A nation can survive its f... (Below threshold)
Atomic Conspiracy:

"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear. The traitor is the plague."

Marcus Tullius Cicero

That said, I support some r... (Below threshold)

That said, I support some reform over none at all, since we have all allowed this unfettered illegal immigration, which in essence was de facto approval by us all and our government of what was going on the last 20 years.

We can't deport them, and we practically invited them in. So we do have to get real about it. Xenophobia is something we should park at the front door when we talk about this.

Stew in your own juices - I... (Below threshold)
Atomic Conspiracy:

Stew in your own juices - I'm out a here!

DJ: This is how you begin t... (Below threshold)

DJ: This is how you begin the ebb tide back to Mexico. Arrest the CEO and COO of the biggest employers of illegals in each major metropolitan area (say 100-120 suits).
Make them poop in public for several days before releasing them to prepare for their arraignment on felony charges (tax fraud, whatever).
Then go down the list to the next largest employers. Millions of Mexicans would be gone within the year.
Remember: "poor" Mexicans each have a rent-free home or ranchero in Mexico. A little-acknowledged fact. They're mainly answering an open invitation for Big Money Opportunity.

And, without a single real ... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

And, without a single real contribution to answering the questions, one of our contestants snarls and stomps off stage.

Thanks, AC, for proving my point.

Thanks Mitchell, your comment at least deals with the reality we face. Anything we do is going to be incremental, will be opposed by special interests, and will be partially successful at best. We have to do the work of course, but these spit-faced ranters are not helping find solutions.

The biggest lie about illeg... (Below threshold)

The biggest lie about illegal immigration is the estimate of 12 million illegals in our country. What a laugh! There are probably 2 million on Long Island alone. The truth is, our government has no idea how many illegals are here. What I have witnessed first hand is: The scandalous drain on our social services by illegals in NYC. As a paramedic, I treat thousands a year and see them treated in the hospitals at a staggering cost to taxpayers. Most do not speak English, but they ALL have a Medicaid card and a DBT (food stamp) card. Even the Russian women with their full length furs (TRUE) . The system is broken and hemorrhaging money.

Why don't you lead the way ... (Below threshold)

Why don't you lead the way with your plan, [b]DJ[/b]?

And if amnesty is given to the millions of illegals in America, who's going to do the "jobs that Americans won't do"?

Well, bryanD, how are you g... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

Well, bryanD, how are you going to arrest those CEOs?

The laws on the books for decvades now, no one enforecs them, so what is going to change that?

I'm not saying I don't want that goal, but no one says how they can make the law suddenly become enforced. And that's what I'm talking about, the difference between what people want, and how, exactly, they figure to make it happen.

Angry insults and slogans are just going to change anything, and attacking the few people who are trying to do something just strikes me as wrong.

Sorry, angry insults and sl... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

Sorry, angry insults and slogans are not going to change anything.

(1) Use the same plan on o... (Below threshold)

(1) Use the same plan on our southern border that is used for the border between North and South Korea; fences, machineguns, and mines, mines, mines. Blow a few thousand border-jumpers to bits with antipersonnel mines, and that problem will dry up real quick.

(2) Put a bounty on illegal aliens, claimable by any US citizen. $500 for each verified illegal alien turned in to INS.

(3) Anybody we catch gets immediately deported. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Just shove 'em right back across the border.

Kids, this isn't some sort of intractable problem. Countries have secured their borders. Countries have controlled their immigration systems. It's just a matter of doing it.


OK sansoucy, thanks for the... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

OK sansoucy, thanks for the first specific plans.

How will you address the lawsuits filed by illegals' families for the deaths? You know the courts already have granted 'rights' to illegals just to be here, so killing them will cerftainly get a Liberal court's attention.

Who will enforce those bounties, and how will they be funded? Remember, Congress doesn;t want to pay for the freaking fence, so how will you get them to agree to fund bounties?

And the problem with 3, is that if we just throw them across the border Monday, they come back Tuesday. If we try to deport them by plane, the receiving country says they can't take them. How do you figure to change those behaviors, especially as they are the behaviors of foreign nations?

We've seen these kinds of suggestions before, but there's a difference between the wish-list and the reality.

I frankly do not exp... (Below threshold)

I frankly do not expect either of them to respond, because neither of them seems interested in solving problems, but only in making a noise about the issue,

I can't agree with that. Hewitt, for one, has published an extensive and substantive analysis of the voluminous bill:


He has criticized the bill,... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

He has criticized the bill, Hugh S, he has never proposed a solution himself.

What he has done is toss out vague proverbs that sound good but hurt the debate instead of advancing it, because he supports the shouters and the name-callers rather than the people trying to do something.

DJI won't link the s... (Below threshold)

I won't link the site again because it's so easy to find. But to say "he has never proposed a solution himself." does not reflect what he has said on his blog.
For example, he is in favor of increasing the number of BP agents and expanding the size of the fence. He said that today. Those are two specific suggestions that go toward solving the problem.

1) I'm not angry2) I... (Below threshold)

1) I'm not angry
2) I'm serious about wondering who will "do the jobs Americans won't do" once the slaves...err... illegal aliens because legal.
3) Malkin has probably answered all those already. I know she's been big on enforcement of the laws. Laws which, BTW, half the American public are either actively breaking or just don't care.
4) "Hate the foreigners" seems like a cop-out on your part, DJ, and I would expect better from you. :)
5) What's the difference between Malkin and Hewlitt criticizing our government for not enforcing laws and someone criticizing their criticizing (without giving his/her own solution)?

I'm just saying that appare... (Below threshold)

I'm just saying that apparently now it's not enough to run a blog, go on national TV or radio and write columns about something. Apparently they actually have to be on the ground -- perhaps with gun in hand at the border.

Not that they should be above reproach -- but why must they do anything more than say for the government to actually enforce the laws already written?

OK Hugh S. Are you aware, ... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

OK Hugh S. Are you aware, though, that the Bush Administration has increased the Border Patrol by more than any President before him? So all Hewitt is saying is that he wants what the President is doing, but perhaps to an even greater degree.

My problems there, are

1 - Hewitt suggests what he should know is already happening. Yet he never points out that Bush is doing what he wants. Why? Because it's not popular to give the President credit for anything, and the people eho want to slam the President only want him seen in one dimension.

2 - Expanding the Border Patrol more is already in the bill sitting in front of Congress, so why does Hewitt focus on that aspect and yet oppose the bill? Because he doesn't have an ewasy answer for the places where the bill is weak or wrong, like answering how the fence will be maintained in coming years, how local law enforcement will be integrated into the new plan and funds allocated. Like addressing how the State Department will get Mexico to cooperate with critical portions of the bill which will depend on them, like it or not.

As I said at the start, I generally like Hewitt. but on this issue he gave in to a poor moral decision, and has not been honest with the public about the facts or the options.

To the naive "immigration m... (Below threshold)

To the naive "immigration moderates" out there..

from "View from the Right":

"One fact that particularly strikes me is that foreigners seeking Z-2 or Z-3 nonimmigrant status (that is, an illegal alien's spouse, parents, and children who under the bill can get "provisional" but actually permanent legal residence in the U.S. as soon as the illegal alien gets Z-1 provisional legal status) have to pay only $500 a piece. So, if 60-year-old Juan and his 58-year-old wife Juanita are in Mexico and have never come to the U.S., and their 30-year-old son Jaime illegally entered the U.S. in December 2006, Juan and Juanita, for $500 each, can move to the United States under what amounts to legal permanent residency."

But don't worry, talk of a North American Union is just kooky talk or so says Medved.

Eric, you obviously are new... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

Eric, you obviously are new here - welcome. But as much as I would like to believe I have the audience or standing - or paychecks - that Hewitt and Malkin enjoy, the fact is that they speak to and for millions of people, and so have a commensurately huge responsibility for getting the facts out, for being responsible and honest about the options, and just a tad more respecting of the people who are actually trying to solve the problem.

If Hewitt would put me on his show, I'd be happy to explain my plan. We both know that will never happen.

SS again demonstrates a ver... (Below threshold)

SS again demonstrates a very appropriate set of initials. Get the kids (who are citizens by being born here) to turn in their parents for a few pieces of silver. BRILLIANT! It worked great for the SS in late 30's and early 40's. Without the help of video cams or bluetooth enabled computers they were able to dispatch about 10 million in only a few years. Imagine the possibilities with modern automation!

As for concrete proposals, I suppose a fence had better be re-inforced concrete. And the holding areas before deportation need to have concrete walls and floors.

"and has not been ho... (Below threshold)

"and has not been honest with the public about the facts or the options."

Well, I'm not sure I would say it that way but I can agree with your general point about the President..." Because it's not popular to give the President credit for anything, and the people eho want to slam the President only want him seen in one dimension."

I think the major flaw in Hewitt's analysis is on the amnesty issue. Hewitt will not accept it in any form. I don't see any way around it. We can't identify, adjudicate and deport that many people. It's impossible. I suspect HH knows that, but in good litigator fashion, will not cede that point until he gets something else in return, such as legislation that makes sure this problem does not happen again. That would be increased security and something approaching a sealed border (not sure how that can be done though)

Thanks for the welcome, DJ,... (Below threshold)

Thanks for the welcome, DJ, though I've been posting for a couple months or more and reading for far longer. But thank you.

I agree with you that it would be good to put their plans out there, if they have them. It's possible they may not realize their plans are getting out, too.

What's the right answer? I don't know. Enforcing the borders is very important, IMHO -- but as I think you've said, Bush has done more than any other president and it still seems not enough.

Perhaps taking another look at the 14th Amendment is the way to go. I understand some think it was misinterpreted, and shouldn't be applied to ~every~ baby born on our soil (it already isn't in some cases, such as a diplomat or diplomat's wife having a baby here).

It could be (and has been) argued that improving Mexico's economy will ebb the flow, but unless Mexico is going to become our 51st, that's just not going to happen (by us, anyway). And why should it? Mexico is a huge importer of American dollars.

At any rate, no matter ~what~ plan is brought up to stop illegal aliens from crossing borders north-and-south there will be people trying to undermine it en masse. And as long as we have people, businesses and whole states doing it, it really doesn't matter how good the solution is, does it?

How will you address the... (Below threshold)

How will you address the lawsuits filed by illegals' families for the deaths? You know the courts already have granted 'rights' to illegals just to be here, so killing them will cerftainly get a Liberal court's attention.

Hmmmm. Who - exactly - is the family of an illegal alien killed illegally crossing into the USA going to sue?

Who will enforce those bounties, and how will they be funded? Remember, Congress doesn't want to pay for the freaking fence, so how will you get them to agree to fund bounties?

[shrug] Congress hasn't got the balls to plant any mines along our borders, either; that's not the point. I mean, I get the impression you're really asking for a *perfect* plan which will please everyone and sail through a Democrat-controlled congress. I don't have such a Magic Plan - all I have is a plan that would work perfectly well and solve the problem ... if we were smart enough to implement it.

And the problem with 3, is that if we just throw them across the border Monday, they come back Tuesday. If we try to deport them by plane, the receiving country says they can't take them. How do you figure to change those behaviors, especially as they are the behaviors of foreign nations?

But that's just the point; if the border is *secured* - and secured *first* - these clowns can't just saunter back in whenever they like.


Just because DJ hasn't hear... (Below threshold)

Just because DJ hasn't heard Malkin or Hewitt suggest ways to solve the problem doesn't mean they haven't. In fact, I'm sure you can find at least the former supporting something like the plan supported by Tancredo, FAIR, CIS, and others: attrition.

However, we need to do some work before any non-amnesty plan can actually work, and the link explains how to do that.

DJ, so it seems as if enoug... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

DJ, so it seems as if enough people break the laws of a nation, it is OK at some point and they all get amnesty. Would that apply to murder? Say a bunch of people, and this is just hypothetical, take up arms and shoot those who they think are illegals who have illegally been granted legal status. They could and should be granted amnesty by the government for breaking the law. Or is it that only certain laws need to be enforced? Can I get rewarded for robbing a bank? How about selling dope? Which laws can I break without penalty? Which laws can I break and get rewarded? If a President swears to uphold the constitution, and that means protecting our borders from intrusion, has that President violated his oath of office?

First off Zelsdorf, it's a ... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

First off Zelsdorf, it's a lie to call this "Amnesty". No, it's not what I want either, but there are penalties for being here illegally, and the illegals - if this plan actually worked - would not get to the head of the line. Let's start with clearing out those lies, all right?

Next, comparing the US to any other nation in terms of controlling immigration won't work, for a number of reasons. Perhaps the biggest is, that we have never had a year in the US where more foreigners did not come in than go out. Call it our freedoms, call it our economy, but we cannot pretend the outsiders won't keep trying to come in. Makes you wonder why we keep getting told the US is so bad next to the wonders of Europe and Asia and all, but that's for another time.

Next, you're beyond deluded if you think a bill you don't like is an impeachable offense. I won't waste my time on that garbage, beyond saying that it is rubbish.

And H.W.Y.C.D., I read the blogs daily and have for years - Hugh and Michelle are not so big on solutions, they like noise, as I said. But if they have posted a plan, as you claim, then you should be able to find it for them and tell us where it is. Pretending there is a plan and calling that good-enough, well that's just silly.

All the means are in place ... (Below threshold)

All the means are in place to stop illegal immigration. We do not have the will as a country to do it.

Eric, I've read and heard t... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

Eric, I've read and heard that many times. Doesn't really move the discussion forward though.

It's amnesty because that's... (Below threshold)

It's amnesty because that's how it will be perceived by millions, millions, and millions more prospective illegal aliens. They won't care about the "tough" provisions. They'll concentrate on the prize being offered for entering illegally, laying low for a while, and then marching in the streets and making demands.

And, bear in mind that those pushing for amnesty now will have even more race-based power in the future due the current amnesty, meaning that future amnesties will be even worse.

And, here's Malkin supporting a bill from last year:


When you think about it, that's part of a pundit's job: supporting things. Writing actual bill text is not.

HWYCD, thanks for showing y... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

HWYCD, thanks for showing your colors.

Rather narrow color spectrum you have.

#1. Pickup Telephone (avail... (Below threshold)

#1. Pickup Telephone (available from AT&T, Verizon, etc.).
#2. Call Help Wanted number for NYTimes, Wall Street Journal.
#3. Place ad for 100 Border Agents @ 95,000.00 per annum with amnesty from indictment for carrying out their job assignment.
#4. Interview applicants and hire the best 50.
#5. Pickup Telephone (available from AT&T, Verizon etc.) call Charter bus service.
#6 ..... should I go on, and would this be specific enough for your purposes?

Bullshit Drummond. If it i... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Bullshit Drummond. If it is not amnesty, it is the next best thing. The penalty for illegally crossing our border is deportation, not some fine and a way to jump to the head of the list to legal immigration. Just because an appeaser like you wants to call it a lie does not make it so. Remove all the illegals from this nation now. If you break in to my house I will shoot you. If you break into my country, I charge you $500 and move you to the head of the line. Call that what you want Drummond but to most of America that is amnesty. Amnesty is the act of granting a pardon to a group of individuals. If the penalty for what they have done is deportation and you do not deport them you are de facto, granting amnesty.

Concrete steps.1) ... (Below threshold)

Concrete steps.

1) Build 10 miles of wall this week. Yep, it is possible. Not easy, but possible. Pay the contractor. Rinse, lather, repeat. After just 4 years, the entire border is walled off. Not seven hundred or three hundred miles. Illegal immigration continues, but is greatly diminished.

2) Remove the rules tying the hands of the enforcers. For example, abolish the requirement that they give a business THREE DAYS NOTICE before showing up to check on their workers. Allow them to inspect at will, regardless of how loud the business owner screams to his Congresscritter. (In a Platonic world, Congress would be banned from pressuring DHS and other enforcement agencies, but somehow I don't think you'll find that a real world solution.)

3) Tie the IRS database with the Social Security database with the State Department database. Any company that is paying people who are not legal gets a letter audit, demanding that they provide the documentation and failing that, they pay. Increase the current fines from nuisance to painful. The best cure for the problem is to kill the supply of jobs, and making it more costly for business owners to follow the law than break it will cure most of that problem.

And for what it's worth, my brother in law, who is Mexican, did stand in line and follow the (twisted and byzantine) rules to be here legally, and I support increasing legal immigration post-haste.

DJ: You asked for a specifi... (Below threshold)

DJ: You asked for a specific, detailed plan to deal with the borders.Here's mine 1) Build a fence, as JSchuler suggests.This isn't dodging any question-it's the necessary first step to border security.If you don't do this nothing else matters.As to how to accomplish this-request bids, pick the best.Like every other construction contract the government issues.2)Set up camps to hold the wanna-be illegals for a few months when they are caught crossing the border.Most illegals cross the border for work.If they can't work, they won't cross.3)Remove the restrictions on local law enforcement that prevent them from noticing that people are here illegally, and taking appropriate action.Once the illegals are caught,the federal government should pay the costs associated with returning them to Mexico (if they don't already) 4)Don't worry about the illegals already here-for now.Once the border is secure give them amnesty and a free week at Disneyland for all I care.If the flow is cut off, the problem is solved as far as I'm concerned.If the success of this plan seems farfetched, so does the success of the current proposal-or even its passage in congress.If I thought any of the enforcement provisions of this proposal would actually be enforced I might support it.But I don't.

DJ is yanking your chain. H... (Below threshold)

DJ is yanking your chain. He posted everything that can, should and must be done. The only other choice is to surrender the country to socialism and become one of them, the Mexican criminals. There is not such thing as an illegal (that's PC BS), cross the border and you are simply a criminal. We spend billions arresting and jailing shoplifters that couldn't do the damage the criminals in thousand years that the criminals do every year.
Even DJ is too PC to use the right term for someone that sneaks across the border without the proper paperwork. "They are criminals", so use the title. Go steal a 25 cent pen or candy bar and see if the cops don't call you a criminal, and if it makes it that far, so will a judge. We are so busy watching for the liberal idiots Language police someone is stealing, with assistance from the politicians, our way of life right in front of our eyes.

How about,Build a ... (Below threshold)

How about,

Build a double fence staring about 200 yards on our side of the border, start it in baha and keep going til you run out of mexico. Put in manned checkpoints where necessary. Stick motion sensors tied into machineguns on top of the fence every couple hundred feet. Fill the gap between the fences with landmines. Stick signs along the border that say Danger Will Robinson in spanish or something like.

Pass a bill requiring all businesses to verify the legal status of employees they currently have and those who apply in the future, then report those findings to ICE. Same deal with social services and police. Kinda like a game of ilegal-whack-a-mole.

Shop around Africa for a country looking for a bunch of free workers. Wait til you have a boatload of ilegals to deport, send them over, and kick them off the boat.

DJ:Part one is not... (Below threshold)


Part one is not dodging the question. What do you want, a specific building schematic?

Part two is also specific: tie receipt of federal funding to local authorities' cooperation with INS. Doing so will produce hundreds of thousands of immigration enforcement agents almost over night. How do you do this? Well, first you get 50... er... 60 votes in the Senate...

And if Keebler Elves are the cause of old age, then I guess I'm a believer. Who knew that the secret to immortality was simply avoiding E.L.Fudge cookies? I don't see the pressing need for even one tenth of one percent of the illegals currently in this country to either be deported or have their status changed, and no one has presented me with such a reason. Thus, I am content to wait for nature (sorry, the Keebler Elves) to take its course so long as we have our in flows not exceeding our outflows.

DJ Re #1 Militariz... (Below threshold)


Re #1 Militarize the border. (don't think it's unprecedented ... my paternal grandfather patrolled the border as part of the 11th Army Cavalry in Texas... when Cavalry meant horses) Follow up with building the fence as soon as possible

Re #2 Laws are already on the books..this means that making sure they are enforced is a top-down executive decision. This is akin to a DA or City Attorney ignoring some law in favor of another. So consequences on non-cooperation must be enforced (or incentives for cooperation). For instance, San Francisco and Oakland basically thumb their nose at the Feds and have declared themselve "santuary cities." There is nothing but the will to choose keeping the Bush Admin from immediately withholding Fed $$$ from those cities or launching fed probes.

#3 Those illegals have no standing. Period. They can leave or be deported. Basically, though, the shift should be concerted efforts against employers. Consistent auditing and jailing of the most egregious offenders (construction, farming, food plants) will go along way to drying up the incentives that have illegals crossing the border.

DJ Drummond - "And, withou... (Below threshold)
Atomic Conspiracy:

DJ Drummond - "And, without a single real contribution to answering the questions, one of our contestants snarls and stomps off stage."

I am back!!!


Morbid curiosity probably. That's the only reason I can think of.

Was "one of our contestants snarls and stomps off stage" suppose to be some kind of big retort/put down on your part there?

You are strangely not very articulate and you are usually sooooooooo wordy anyway.

Why do you attack a patriot like Michael Malkin BTW?

Because she criticizes your hero George "Worst President since Jimmy Carter, and now probably even worse" Bush?

You are attacking a patriot and defending a traitor.

I hope you can sleep at night.

And BTW, it is YOU who is NOT making a SINGLE real contribution on this matter that is of the UTMOST importance to our nation.

In fact quite the contrary.

If you are with el Bushito and the Senate quislings, you are not with America. You are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Completely close the border... (Below threshold)

Completely close the borders to all new immigration until such time as all temporary visas currently in use have been veried as current and legal. Those that are not are immediately deported at their own expense OR if they are students within a minor number of credits for graduation either a very large fine or its equivalent in jail time.

Any illegal caught after the border is closed is shipped to hard labor duty at the ugliest of federal prisons.

After the years of checking visas, when the border is re-opened, no one is allowed in without a personal cash bond and English fluency. If they have not applied for and been granted citizenship within one years time, they forfeit their bond and are deported at their own expense.

Once again, people are poti... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

Once again, people are poting a lot of goals, rather than saying how they will get done.

* Hire more Border Patrol? Already being done, crying...

* Demented rants implying a right to fatal violence, Zelsdorf? Please consider professional mental help ... soon.

* Suddenly increase the pace of fence-building, Watchman, Xennedy? Great, how do you plan to make it happen? We're all dying to know details, and I have not seen anyone here opposed to the fence;

* Change operation rules, Watchman? Again, who gets to choose, and how do you figure this Donkey Kong COngress will react? Again, wishing for it to be so is fine for Cinderella, but not here;

* I'd love to see database coordination too, Watchman. How will you get Congress to order it, and how will you prevent the identit theft which would be made so much easier by that practice?

* Scrapiron, you figure being in the country illegally is the same as running drugs or being a terrorist? I agree we should treat illegals as illegals - unfair slap by the way, calling me 'PC' when I call illegals, illegals and not whetever the fashion in now. But there is a difference in how people act, and selling a plan includes showing we are not treating relatively minor offenders the same as the really bad ones. Let's start with getting rid of the worst ones, maybe, the gang-bangers and the violent criminals, then maybe we can talk about what to do with the family whose offence is not following a rule;

You get the idea. The problem is not one-dimensional, even if some of the people are.

btw, H.W.Y.C.D., I guess my biggest beef with Malkin is that she describes anything but her own plan in the same insulting way. There's room to dislike a plan, without lying about it.

You want a solid proposal, ... (Below threshold)

You want a solid proposal, DJ. OK, try this:

1) Enforce the I-9 requirement in existing law. No proof of eligibility to work = no job. No proof of eligibility = no federal or state benefits either.

2) A secure and nationally-accepted method of identification, so that it's a lot harder to forge proof of eligibility. "Secure" in this context also means secure from abuse by federal or state agencies. Not to be used for any other purpose. In particular, NOT to be turned into a universal national-ID card.

3) A requirement that companies keep pay records on all employees, and send that data to ICE. Names not necessary, just numbers and amounts paid. Any company that seems to be doing more work than its listed payroll can account for gets a surprise visit from ICE. Any company with a discrepancy between its payroll and its tax records gets a visit from IRS _and_ ICE. Heavy mandatory fines for any company found employing illegals. In extreme cases, jail terms for corporate executives.

4) A ban on transfers of money from the United States to Mexico by any means, whether electronic, cash, check, or money order.

When they can't get jobs, can't send money home anymore, and can't get services, the illegals will leave of their own accord.

DJ:You asked for a plan, yo... (Below threshold)

DJ:You asked for a plan, you got it.Plans aren't lacking, will is.If this set of politicians had the will, the country would not be facing this issue.If George Bush had a solution acceptable to the public, he would not be facing the opposition he is facing.If he had presented something similar to what we have proposed here to the voters as part of a plan in 2006, it would have been wildly popular. and the GOP would still control congress.Instructive to me is that I agree with every word of what bryanD posted earlier.This is not a right/left issue to voters, just politicians

There is absolutely no poin... (Below threshold)
Atomic Conspiracy:

There is absolutely no point in presenting any ideas, old or new, to DJ Drummond for his approval, he has his eyes and ears and mind completely shut.

All he is trying to do is just divert your attention from the wholesale sellout that is going on anyway.

It's an old lawyers trick.

Don't fall for it.

You're missing the points, ... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

You're missing the points, Xennady.

When you say "will" is lacking, then your job is to say what will change that. YOu out & out lied about the President, which is nothing to the discussion except that he's done more than his dad or Prez Bubba did, which you should consider when looking at what, hmm, caliber of wanna-be we see in the '08 field.

And the "opposition" you noted, is one which opposes every attempt to resolve this mess. One end of the Spectrum wants to sign up the illegals as new voters, and the other wants to pretend they aren't people and won't be a factor in responding to anything we try. Add to that the status quo-ers who won't do anything unless their re-eleciton depends on it, the facers who do everything according to the polls, even the slanted ones we see often in the media, and so on, and it's damned hard for an honest man to get his plan heard, much less put in motion.

And wolfwalker, your plan sounds great. But please tell me where the conditions you toss off so blandly have ever existed?

DJ says:"I'm not s... (Below threshold)
Jeff Blogworthy:

DJ says:

"I'm not saying I don't want that goal, but no one says how they can make the law suddenly become enforced..."

Well there's a fine how-do-ya-do. How do we make politicians understand we want them to follow the constitution? How do we make the listen to us and respond?

Does it occur to you that the exact same scenario is likely to be repeated no matter what the plan? If they don't enforce current provisions why would they enforce new ones?

1) Make a heckuva lot of noise.

2) Make it very clear that heads will roll come election time if they don't respond to the will of the people.

Hmmm. Sounds exactly like what might be happening. So we're back to square one. People are going to have to stop playing partisan politics and demand that their representative start representing - or else.

DJ, if you're going to stri... (Below threshold)

DJ, if you're going to strike down every proposal here as politically unrealistic, that's fine. But I think for your argument to have any weight you're going to have to convince us that accepting this sham of a compromise is actually better than the status quo. I'm just not seeing it. I am happy to let this plan die on the vine until our politicians find the spine to actually do something closer to right.

Yeah exactly, Jeff Blogwort... (Below threshold)

Yeah exactly, Jeff Blogworthy. I don't see the point to this "exercise". It feels like the old kids tune There's A Hole in the Bucket.

We can call the current plan amnesty, or we could call it whatever else we like, but it's not the magic solution either. If nothing else, it'll be ~incentive~ for more lawbreaking.

This is silly. It seems that DJ is asking the Hewitts and Malkins to do the jobs ~for~ the politicians instead of demanding they do them themselves?

mcg, check your calender. W... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

mcg, check your calender. When, precisely, was the last time Congrtess did have a better bill before it, which party was in charge, and what happened?

Jeff, believe it or not I'm not trying tosell you on any one particular plan. I'm trying to get you guys to think, beyond the 'hate it' reflex, about what is needed to actually start to solve this problem.

And just for the thought, those of you who call this bill 'amnesty' and that bill 'amnesty', just because they don't give you 100% of what you demand, consider that Amnesty - when seriously defined - means not doing anything to the illegals for being here, and that is exactly what you are doing by not letting any bill get put into action.

Drummond, you can not even ... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Drummond, you can not even follow an arguement that alludes to violence. I do not think a fool like yourself has any qualification for suggesting anyone should seek therapy. The solution you seek to the problem is to throw the illegals out. No matter how long or what it takes, it must be done. I have come to believe you are just a bonehead. Hewitt will never suffer a fool like you on his program and Malkin would chew you up and spit you out. You really show that you are a lightweight.

Zelsdorf, you take yourself... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

Zelsdorf, you take yourself waaaaay too seriously, you know that?

DJ:No, you're missing the p... (Below threshold)

DJ:No, you're missing the point.My job is to say what will change that? Huh? I say it has ALREADY changed but politicians are unwilling to notice.Yet.How the hell did I lie about the president? I find that offensive and ridiculous.I voted for him twice and used to be a supporter.He's done nothing except enrage the base of his party.Nothing.No bill has been passed nor is this one likely to be passed.When his dad and Clinton were president this was not the issue of the significance of which it has become.Fewer people were worried about it then, and I wasn't one of them.That's changed.The opposition I noted doesn't oppose every attempt to solve this mess-just those that will never actually solve it.Like this new bill.Again-secure the border, and the problem will wither away.That's the bottom line.

DJ-You are totally... (Below threshold)
Uncle Mike:


You are totally missing the point. You keep saying that every suggestion offered is "politically unrealistic". Every poll says that a vast majority of Americans want to end illiegal immigration, not legal immigration. In fact, we need to dramatically increase our legal immigration. There are amazing people, patiently waiting in line, that we want and need in this country. What we don't need is Mexico sending us all their poor and uneducated workers to our country.

First step, as stated over and over again by Hewitt, is to build the fence. If we cut the flow of illegals, we can increase the flow of legal immigrants. Second step is to enforce the employer sanctions. Businesses that feed the flow of illegals have to be punished. The laws are already there. The only thing lacking is the political will to enforce them.

Finally, as Hewitt detailed, once the first two steps are fully in place, we can handle the 12 million already here. America is a big country with a big heart. 12 million is easy for us to swallow. The problem with this new bill you insist we need, is that is does nothing to stop the next wave. We tried it your way in 1986 and now we are paying the price. So you want us to shut up and sign onto Simpson-Mazolli v2 with no guarantee that we won't be looking at another 12 million or more in 2027? Hewitt and Malkin are making much more sense than you.

You see Xennady, it's rants... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

You see Xennady, it's rants lika that one which make me quesiton the rest of your position. The President does not do preecsiely what you want on one issue, hardly the greatest threat, and now you deny everything else he ever did.

Hardly mature or reasonable.

And quite useful to the Democrats, whom I can assure you will never fail to offend you once you help them get elected.

Good luck with that.

Uncle Mike, I am stil waiti... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

Uncle Mike, I am stil waiting to hear just what Malkin and Hewitt want to do.

Goals are not the actions, and vague slogans hardly count as detailed plans.

As I have said already.

"Uncle Mike, I am sti... (Below threshold)

"Uncle Mike, I am stil waiting to hear just what Malkin and Hewitt want to do."


I've tried to follow this thread this afternoon and evening and it's beginning to repeat itself.

I will agree that Michelle Malkin's "Bush middle finger photo" was not appropriate today. She should not have posted that image.

Hewitt's remarks have been noted by me previously in this thread.

As to specific plans and actions, this thread is full of them already. Many of those comments, plans, and action points are drawn from Malkin and Hewitt posts. I'm not going to bother to link them.

You've raised some good points of discussion here given the number of comments posted, but "Goals are not the actions, and vague slogans hardly count as detailed plans." is hardly the response you should serve up to rebut the body of work Hewitt and Malkin have published on this subject.

We can all disagree but you have allowed the discussion to drift between personalities and policy....dangerous territory.

DJ:Huh? What rant? I don't ... (Below threshold)

DJ:Huh? What rant? I don't expect the president to do exactly what I want on ANY given issue.But this is the issue up for discussion now.I don't deny everything else he ever did-why would you say THAT? I will-however-suggest that his position on illegal immigration is not congruent with the national interest.This is why I object to his apparent policy prescription of endless amnesty without consequence.Like almost all Americans-left and right.

Xennady, you specificall... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

Xennady, you specifically said that Bush has done "nothing". Twice. Even as we discuss his bill, the first freakin' attempt to do somehting in decades.

And you're full of it, to pretend it was not an important issue for GHW Bush and Bill Clinton. It was big deal for Reagan, remember, so you're out & out lying to pretend it suddenly did not matter until now.

That's a rant, what you put down, and you shoulkd know it. If you do and you're trying to cover your ass, that's dishonest. If you were unable to realize that you were off in no-Reality-land, then that is just pathetic.

The problem, HughS, is that... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

The problem, HughS, is that those "specific" plans you point to, do nothing to expoain how they will be enacted. Saying "build the fence" or "hire more Border agents" is what Dubya is already doing, and saying "enforce the laws" and "secure the border" is no more effective than calling yourself coach and telling the team "go score".

And you know that.

DJ Drummond - "You see Xenn... (Below threshold)
Atomic Conspiracy:

DJ Drummond - "You see Xennady, it's rants lika that one which make me quesiton the rest of your position."

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

DJ:So he talked about this ... (Below threshold)

DJ:So he talked about this issue? So what? He accomplished nothing.I repeat-nothing.He attempted to do something? Worthless.I'm lying? Bullshit.I may disagree with you on this one issue but I won't lie about anything.I don't care enough.No one I know personally will know I comment here-so why would I lie? Reagan may have thought he solved this issue but he did not.Same for Clinton.This was never a pressing concern for me until 500k Mexicans marched through LA. with Mexican flags-then things changed.This reminds me of the Colbert Report guy joke about Bush-he believed the same thing on Wednesday that he believed on Monday regardless of what happened on Tuesday.That march was my Tuesday.Things changed, and I want politicians to notice.So far, they have not.I want that to change.So far, it has not.

DJ: who cares if those cond... (Below threshold)

DJ: who cares if those conditions have never existed before? We're Americans. We specialize in "things that have never been done before."

One questiom DJ. If you can... (Below threshold)

One questiom DJ. If you cannot find them to deport them now, how do you propose to get them to come forward to pay $5000 to get to stay? Hmmmm

I still want DJ to tell us ... (Below threshold)

I still want DJ to tell us his plan and answer those very three questions since they affect us whether or not the illegal immigration bill passes. If he cannot, his bucket holds no water.

[] Secure the national borders from constant and pervasive penetration by illegals, and potentially terrorists?

[] Enforce the laws already on the books, which address illegal possession of documents, especially forged and stolen documents, which address employment of illegals by American companies, and which address the disposition of persons found to have entered the United States illegally?

[] Address the presence of more than [future] twelve million foreign nationals already residing in the United States, in a manner which is compliant with the U.S. Constitution, viable given available resources, and realistic regarding the response by those persons to the initiative?

America: The only country that can be invaded by 12-20 million people and have apologists for.

I think DJ has made the poi... (Below threshold)

I think DJ has made the point.....EVERYONE here must take the passion and focus of this issue, and ACT.

WE/INS can raid businesses like in New Bedford, MA. 300 or so workers ship them to Texas and then out. A lot of crying about breaking up families etc. but TOO bad laws are LAWS. MORE...pressure to do more raids.
If the government won't investigate to find the NESTS of job-sites of illegals, then WE citizens should form local and nation organizations to do EXACTLY that.

The point is THIS, this disaster of an immigration bill will probably NOT pass because of US. Make the calls, the e-mails..........if we can't kill it in the Senate, then make some noise in the house.

Then as DJ has said, plans and laws may be out there, but how do we make them implement those plans. Simple..WE WE WE have to make them work. Elected officials need to start being SLAPPED!!!!!!! HARD!!!!!!!!

Malkin has talked about the... (Below threshold)

Malkin has talked about the "right way" to deal with illegal aliens, and does so again in today's blog posting. DJ just apparently isn't happy with it because she hasn't said, "DJ Drummond, this is my plan: ... "

EVERYTHING starts with securing our borders. We do that, and then we can talk amnesty, faux-fines or exporting them en-masse. If we can't secure the borders, all else is moot and we seriously should take down our stars-and-stripes.

What does Malkin think the answer is? According to today's post, it's the same as said here:

What is Attrition Through Enforcement? Steadily, systematically enforce the immigration laws on the books. Secure the border. Make America an illegal alien-free workplace. Cooperate with state and local law enforcement when they encounter illegal and criminal aliens in their routine duties.

Make electronic employment verification mandatory. March employers of illegal aliens on a high-profile perp walk. Go after multiple usage of a Social Security number. Make US VISIT mandatory for all foreign travelers, including Mexico and Canada, at land borders as well as airports, and for exit as well as entry.

If you make it more likely that illegal aliens can't continue getting away with their offenses, they will find fewer employers willing to face prison for hiring them. With less opportunity, greater accountability, higher risk and less reward, fewer and fewer illegal aliens will come here. More and more illegal aliens will leave on their own (that is, self-deport, on their own dime).

That's pretty much consistent with what she's been saying along (a simple search on her site can confirm)--at least for those of us who aren't ticked at her for making money while doing it. ;)

mcg, check your calender... (Below threshold)

mcg, check your calender. When, precisely, was the last time Congrtess did have a better bill before it, which party was in charge, and what happened?

Nice dodge, DJ. Yes, I concede that the House bill that I supported just wouldn't make it through the Senate. But again, I have to ask: why shouldn't I hope for this bill die on the vine? That is, why is it better than no bill at all? What does this bill actually do to improve the situation?

I'm not kidding. It's one thing if it was clear to me that the bill is far less than I want, but a step in the right direction. I don't think it's that at all. So I can wait, thanks.

I wrote my dimwitted senato... (Below threshold)

I wrote my dimwitted senators, the white house and vp... I borrowed and rearranged YOUR words and ideas. ..

This immigration "bill" is a terrible, cobbled together bandaid put forth too quickly, without thought, outside the rules of the Senate. It is a prime example of lazy senators attempting to show that they are "doing something" before they run home to raise more money. At 700+ pages I actually doubt than any one senator has even bothered to read it. It's a disgusting misuse of voters trust.

This piece of legislative nonsense is little more than ~incentive~ for more lawbreaking and gives truth the the opinion that Democrats are concerned more with their party's political future than for our COUNTRY'S future. And at this point I am equally disgusted with any Republican that signs on to this 'give America away' debacle.

I am sick of having an America be he only country that can be invaded by 12-20 million people and have apologists for it.

1. Enforce the rules already in place

2. FINISH the fence.

3. Remove the rules tying the hands of the enforcers. For example, abolish the requirement that they give a business THREE DAYS NOTICE before showing up to check on their workers. Allow them to inspect at will.

4. Tie the IRS database with the Social Security database with the State Department database. Any company that is paying people who are not legal gets a letter audit, demanding that they provide the documentation and failing that, they pay. Increase the current fines from nuisance to painful.

5. Militarize the border.

6.Completely close the borders to all new immigration until such time as all temporary visas currently in use have been veried as current and legal. Those that are not are immediately deported at their own expense OR if they are students within a minor number of credits for graduation either a very large fine or its equivalent in labor/jail time.

After the years of checking visas, when the border is re-opened, no one is allowed in without a personal cash bond and English fluency. If they have not applied for and been granted citizenship within one years time, they forfeit their bond and are deported at their own expense.

Any illegal caught after the border is closed is shipped to hard labor duty at the ugliest of federal prisons or used on farms as an alternative to cash farm subsidies.

7. Enforce the I-9 requirement in existing law. No proof of eligibility to work = no job. No proof of eligibility = no federal or state benefits either. ILLEGAL = no free education.
ILLEGAL = no drivers license. ILLEGAL = no welfare.

8. A ban on transfers of money from the United States to Mexico by any means, whether electronic, cash, check, or money order.

Are you going to listen to the LEGAL American voters?



DJ Drummond says: HWYCD,... (Below threshold)

DJ Drummond says: HWYCD, thanks for showing your colors. Rather narrow color spectrum you have.

Please explain in detail exactly what that's supposed to mean.



Dear Mrs. ,

Thank you for contacting me with your thoughts regarding immigration reform. I appreciate hearing from you on this important issue.

On May 25, 2006, the Senate passed the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act by a vote of 62-36. I voted for this legislation because it contains numerous provisions to enhance border security, creates a guest worker program to meet the needs of state businesses, and confronts the issue of undocumented immigrants.

I firmly believe that any changes to our national policy on immigration must keep border security and enforcement as a top priority. If enacted, this legislation would authorize 14,000 additional border agents and at least 2,500 port of entry inspectors, and would authorize a virtual fence to allow the border to be patrolled with unmanned aircraft, cameras, sensors, and other technology, expanding the reach and effectiveness of our border security personnel. It would also authorize the hiring of 10,000 agents to enforce employment regulations as part of a program that would require employers to check Social Security numbers of new hires against a federal database.

The Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act includes a measure I sponsored to help northern border communities cover the high cost of prosecuting Federal border crimes. Based on an existing program for the southern border, this provision would authorize almost $30 million annually to reimburse border communities for the cost of prosecuting cases, detaining suspects, and constructing holding spaces. The Senate immigration reform bill also incorporates legislation I cosponsored to make it a crime to construct or finance a tunnel across a border leading into the U.S. Currently, tunnel construction is not a crime, meaning suspects only face drug conspiracy or illegal immigration charges, and are not charged for the actual tunnel construction, even though it poses a serious threat to national security. This provision would subject guilty parties to a prison term of up to 20 years, and hold property owners who permit tunnel construction accountable. An amendment I cosponsored with other Northwest Senators to direct the Defense Department to use unmanned aerial vehicles for border surveillance along the northern border as part of a one-year pilot program was also included.

Immigration policy must also address the need to fill labor shortages in certain fields such as technology and agriculture, and accommodate market demands for foreign labor. The Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act expands our temporary guest worker program to allow up to 200,000 foreign workers to obtain visas and fill vacant jobs in the United States, a change that will help meet the needs of businesses and agriculture producers. Individuals would receive a three-year visa, renewable once, and would be eligible to apply for permanent residence after holding a visa for a period of 4 years.

The bill would also make illegal immigrants who have been in the United States since April 5, 2001 eligible for legal status after working in the United States for six years, passing a background check, paying back taxes, holding a job, learning civics and English, and paying a $3,250 fine. Illegal immigrants who have been in this country between two and five years would have to register with the Department of Homeland Security. Within three years of their registration, they would have to leave the United States and could return by applying for a visa. After clearing a background check, paying back taxes, and meeting other requirements, these individuals would qualify for legal permanent residence status. An additional 1.5 million agricultural workers would be eligible for permanent legal residence if they could prove they worked in agriculture in the United States previously, and if they worked three to five more years in agriculture.

To help meet the needs of Washington state's high-tech industries, the bill increases the annual H1-B visa cap from 65,000 to 115,000. It also includes a bipartisan measure, which I sponsored, to increase the proportion of visas currently issued each year to highly-skilled workers, and to workers with advanced degrees. In doing so, this provision would help meet America's growing need for scientists, mathematicians, and engineers.

As you may know, the House of Representatives passed its version of the immigration reform legislation on December 16, 2006. However, the House and Senate did not reconcile the two versions of this legislation before the close of the 109th Congress. Please be assured that I will keep your comments in mind should I have the opportunity to consider legislation reforming our nation's immigration policy in the 110th Congress.

Thank you again for contacting me to share your thoughts on this matter. Finally, you may be interested in signing up for my weekly update for Washington state residents. Every Monday, I provide a brief outline about my work in the Senate and issues of importance to Washington state. If you are interested in subscribing to this update, please visit my website at http://cantwell.senate.gov. Please do not hesitate to contact me in the future if I can be of further assistance.

Maria Cantwell
United States Senator

Criticisms can still be wor... (Below threshold)

Criticisms can still be worthwhile arguments, even if critics such as Hewitt and Malkin do not propose a constructive policy. This is true because our choice is not just (i) the current bill or (ii) a different bill but also (iii) no bill. We may be in a bad situation even respecting our treating illegals humanely, but that does not prevent current legislation from making matters worse.

The notion that US Citizenship and Immigration Services or whatever other agency can adequately check 12million+ applications in 24hrs is stupid and the paper work would crush an already overwhelmed part of the government.

For Hewitt's part, I think he would support a law that has real enforcement up front and triggers based on enforcement-performance metrics for the normalization of current illegals. I suspect that most of the country would go along with that as long as politicians could not easily game the triggers. If the Israelis could tamp down on suicide bombers by using a fence and patrols, then why aside from our lack of political will can we not achieve similar results with illegal crossings?

I think just having the mil... (Below threshold)

I think just having the military work the border and call it training exercises would be just fine. What better training are they going to get for the some of the same things they are doing now in Iraq? Patrols searching for,finding,and detaining a foreign national with all the technology and skills we have to offer. Transporting and handling of people who do not speak our language. They can pass those along to the Border Patrols and send them back. As far as the Illegals here in the states already....just enforce the laws we have. Deportation is our friend. They came in groups over the years..we can deport them in little groups over the years. Seems a very simple way of handling the problem and get some good hands on training for our troops.
This whole thing of creating a huge new bureacratic nightmare system for the illegals seems silly and a waste of time and money.

Actually, There is a rumor ... (Below threshold)

Actually, There is a rumor out there that there is a "clean" defense supplemental bill about to be given to the President. If that can finally happen then maybe an enforcement first bill can be crafted by the same people. Strange things can happen.

And, without a single re... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

And, without a single real contribution to answering the questions, one of our contestants snarls and stomps off stage.

We are waiting for your answers to these questions, for which you have provided none.

mcg, check your calender... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

mcg, check your calender. When, precisely, was the last time Congrtess did have a better bill before it, which party was in charge, and what happened?


Except there was no Congressional bill...if there had, they'd probably still be haggling about it.

The operation began in California and Arizona and coordinated 1,075 Border Patrol agents along with state and local police agencies to mount an aggressive crackdown, going as far as police sweeps of Mexican-American neighborhoods and random stops and ID checks of "Mexican-looking" people in a region with many Native Americans and native Hispanics[citation needed]. Some 750 agents targeted agricultural areas with a goal of 1000 apprehensions a day. By the end of July, over 50,000 aliens were caught in the two states. Around 488,000 people fled the country for fear of being apprehended. By September, 80,000 had been taken into custody in Texas, and the INS estimates that 500,000-700,000 illegals had left Texas voluntarily. To discourage re-entry, buses and trains took many illegals deep within Mexico before being set free. Tens of thousands more were put aboard two hired ships, the Emancipation and the Mercurio. The ships ferried the aliens from Port Isabel, Texas, to Veracruz, Mexico, more than 500 miles (900 kilometers) south.

(close tags)... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

(close tags)

Unfortunately, this convers... (Below threshold)
Former Lurker:

Unfortunately, this conversation will never be resolved to DJ's satisfaction. As I look through many of the posts, I see actual suggestions being made on HOW to secure the borders, deport illegal immigrants, etc. Unfortunately, DJ comes back and says that every suggestion is a GOAL, and not specific enough for his tastes. By constantly moving the goal posts, DJ cannot, or is not willing to, recognize the fact that building the wall and securing the border is both a plan AND an action. Everything else is in the details and can be worked out.

Face it DJ, you are asking for actions that are lower level than the suggestions people are providing. For example, when someone suggests building a wall along the border, you ask "HOW." What kind of answer would satisfy you? Do you want me to tell you how to mix the mortar, pour the concrete and lay the bricks? Is that enough of a plan? Or is that too low-level for your consideration? Or are you asking what kind of action needs to be taken to secure the funding, etc.? How about having our representatives vote to fund the darn thing or we vote them out of office? Is that specific enough?

I just went to Hewitt's sit... (Below threshold)
M. in Boston:

I just went to Hewitt's site this morning, and found the following specifics that some people here claim he is lacking. I won't post them all here, just the link, so everyone can see them in context.

Suffice to say here he begins his post with: "Opponents of the draft immigration bill as written should be willing to articulate what they view as necessary amendments. Here are my priorities:"


DJ,You refuse to s... (Below threshold)


You refuse to see what's offered. Enforcing the law is specific. The IRS seems to be able to collect my taxes, the police will stop you from driving recklessly, and try running a business without complying with city codes. However, I have a slightly different, and unfortunate take on this.

I think we all agree there's a problem: too many illegal immigrants. Important next step: identify the actual cause of this problem.

Not good enough laws? NO obviously not the problem.

The problem is that we haven't shown the will to enforce the current laws. Therefore, passing more lenient laws is not a solution. Thus, opposition to the current proposal IS a positive effort to address the problem.

We must preserve current laws, and must exert pressure to have better enforcement. This must be done by convincing politicians that they will lose their office if they do not work for better enforcement.

Unfortunately, there may be enough citizens and politicians who don't want better enforcement, so the politicians can get away with lax enforcement. In that case, any subsequent activity in this area is just a con to "cool the marks". I believe the current legislation is in that category.






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