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Now where did I put those socks?

I need to do some laundry tomorrow. I need some clean socks -- I just got a bunch of them all dirty.

Sometimes I have evil thoughts. Sometimes I even act on them...

Comments (33)

Heh. Lee nailed you on that... (Below threshold)

Heh. Lee nailed you on that "because they do it to" mentality, Jay.

I also find it telling that your sole rebuttal to Greenwald's points is a year-old "sock puppet!" charge.

Errr... "too".... (Below threshold)

Errr... "too".

I also find it telling t... (Below threshold)
Old Coot:

I also find it telling that your sole rebuttal to Greenwald's points is a year-old "sock puppet!" charge.

Is there a statute of limitations protecting an unethical asshole like Greenwald?

No, it's just telling that ... (Below threshold)

No, it's just telling that you rely on an ad hominem response instead of debating his point.

What's to debate? A quick ... (Below threshold)

What's to debate? A quick skim through shows the same old, everyone else can be a monstrous barbarian but only America matters argument.

How is that debated? You either agree with the multicultural assumption that there are no common human standards or rights or you don't.

And while I'm still in a bit of bafflement at the fact, clearly one side of this goes with the "no common human standards" assumption.

It's not conservatives who have decided that a betrayal of their base values is more important than siding with the enemy... the enemy in this case being conservatives.

No common values or standards means that Al Qaida can torture horribly because Al Qaida is Al Qaida and are monsterous sorts. But they are them and we are us, therefore we MUST only worry about our own behavior.

Monsters need love too.

Oh, and Al Qaida does not "... (Below threshold)

Oh, and Al Qaida does not "do it too."

Anyone who sees the aggressive interrogation that we do as something Al Qaida does *too* is hopelessly delusional.

We get "eviscerated" for insulting a prisoner's religion or wrapping them in an Israeli flag or putting fake blood on them, and the "they do it too" is some really horrific barbaric crap. But it's all the same?

The false argument is not "they do it too" it's "WE do it too" the excuse given by those excusing the most horrible disregard for human life, torture and executions. None of that matters because "we do it too."

It isn't useful to "debate" this because if a person doesn't see that there is only *one* standard of human behavior, not a different standard for different persons, there is nothing to debate.

But go ahead and think Greenwald has some sort of moral insight and that he "eviscerated" Republicans.

Just hilarious!I l... (Below threshold)

Just hilarious!

I love how Lee was shocked after he unravelled the da Vinci Code over there and figured out that Jay Tea had actually posted the first comments under an assumed name!

See, no high-profiled blogger should ever, ever do that!

What an amusing start to your weekend, J.

What an amusing start t... (Below threshold)

What an amusing start to your weekend, J.

I thought so too.

To use satire in such a brilliant and incisive way is about all the thread deserves and using it in this case is far far different than how and why true sockpuppets use it.

Well done, Jay. ... (Below threshold)

Well done, Jay.

This whole topic of torture... (Below threshold)

This whole topic of torture just reeks to me. Different "human rights" groups will go after the US after using excessive AC to make people cold or something weak like waterboarding where there is no physical damage done. But not a peep when al qaeda puts electrical contacts on a young childs tongue among other things...


This brings the Do Not Feed... (Below threshold)

This brings the Do Not Feed The Trolls mantra to a new level. Really, now don't encourage them over at Blue, They'll think we really do read their tripe and stay over there posting instead of jamming up the bandwidth here.. uh, er... OK, I admit its a brilliant ploy.

Greenwald demagogues this i... (Below threshold)

Greenwald demagogues this issue of equivalence as do so many on the left.

I'm presently reading "My Father's Secret War" by NYT Pulitzer Prize winner Lucinda Franks. It's really an interesting book, in spite of the fact that the author's life view is so marinated in the 60's mindset.

If you want to see the tension between the Greenwalds of our world and those who seek to protect us as it relates to the torture issue you might want to read the book. It's a revealing view into the liberal mindset as a 1960's rebel confronts on a very personal basis a real war hero (who happens to be the author's father) who engaged in torture and assassination during WWII. I'll give the author credit...she presents his side of the story also.

In short, the left simply doesn't "get it" when it comes to war. For all the contorted philosophy and affected "reason", there is no sense of a desire for self preservation.

For all the trolls here, I'll provide a "Highlights" account if necessary.

Lee"And Jay responds... (Below threshold)

"And Jay responds with sockpuppets - cause "Greenwald does it too", right on cue. Talking about nailing the conservative mentality -- wow, Greenwald is good. "

Jay's satire illustrates and rebuts the Greenwald demagoguery...in short, it is being hoist on your own petard.

Patterico nailed this, Jay just ran a trailer annoncing a rerun.

Greenwald's is an excellent... (Below threshold)

Greenwald's is an excellent blog. He gets more knocks from the warbloggers than any other opposition page. By a 4 - 1 margin, it seems. A tribute to his efficacy. I think he drove one of the final cyber-nails in the Plame-was-not-covert meme, too, in the popular mind. Haha! Them wuz the dayz! Down the ol' memory hole once more!

About the torture controversy: W's problem was the official legal sanctioning of it as a tool by the US government. In Vietnam they'd hand the Cong over to the Kit Carsons and listen in. To make it a duty of a government employee is insane in its implications for our civil society.
I think Bush is a communist spy. A Manchurian Candidate. A pod person. He can't be so dumb, can he? Is his moat to Jupiter Island that impregnable? Are there robot sharks in case the Ancien Regime is overturned? Sauce - goose?

BryanIs his mo... (Below threshold)

Is his moat to Jupiter Island that impregnable? ???

Maybe that's Jeb's moat.

To make it a duty of a government employee is insane in its implications for our civil society.

You may be on to something here! How about we outsource all interrogations to Halliburton and Blackwater? They might not only do it "no bid"...they might VOLUNTEER!

I'm trying to decide if Bry... (Below threshold)

I'm trying to decide if BryanD was suggesting that making an official definition of can and can't is what is bad and that the "official" bit should have been a "no never!" lie while practicing deceptive go-arounds such as letting someone else do worse and just listening in... since this is *more* moral?

I mean, I've heard people say that for Kyoto. That we should lie and sign it even if we have no intention of doing it at all. Because lying about it presents a public front that can be used to pressure others to a standard we refuse for ourselves.

So it sort of sounds like BryanD is all up with "torture" so long as we lie about it because the lie would be keeping appearances.

Can't compete with Greenwal... (Below threshold)

Can't compete with Greenwald mentally?

Call him names and accuse him of stuff! A great strategy.

jp2Can't compe... (Below threshold)

Can't compete with Greenwald mentally?

That should read won't compete because diving in his "mental" pool violates common pool rules:

1) No diving in the shallow end...

The top of the "Torture Tie... (Below threshold)

The top of the "Torture Tier"? Would you torture someone to save a loved one. From there, it's a value call, how far would you go to save others you don't know? Some on here, were actually in the blood and the mud, not simply holding a DD214 in their hand. They know EVERYONE has a limit. It amuses me how folks can sit on a fence and judge, from afar, like Greenwald. My guess is, he'd be terrified if he knew what a person is capable of, given the right situation. Line grunts don't have the luxury of playing politics, that is reserved for REMF's like BryanDD214. Would I torture to save others? in a heartbeat.

Synova, Re: legalizing tort... (Below threshold)

Synova, Re: legalizing torture.

You need to understand that torture is being justified as an interrogatory device. To be employed upon SUSPECTS. (Convicts is a whole 'nuther nasty can of worms: revellie, breakfast, torture, lunch, torture ...)
Suspects are not neccessarily guilty. And anyone can be suspected of anything at any time. Even you. You could be an official Them and hustled off in communicado for use as a torture investigational device for interrogator trainees/ observers.
Women would be especially vulnerable to exploitation in ways I don't need to enumerate. Look at helpless people in hospitals, orphanages, nursing homes. Certain perverts a drawn there like moths to a flame.

And do we want to train a cadre of torture specialists/ perverts? There's a reason the CIA employed freelance thugs and "security guards" to do the "handling" in times past. The phenomenon of the Night Vistor ensured that that occupation would always be a revolving door because the unconscious mind is a powerful thing and there's no rest for the wicked.

Hence, the reliance for justification on the psychological Personal Pronoun!

"...and those who seek to protect us.."_ Posted by: HughS at 07:57 PM

Hugh S: Dig a hole and wait there. The day you're Safe is the day we cover you.

Sincerly, bryanD

Ran, Sorry for missing your... (Below threshold)

Ran, Sorry for missing your comment mentioning me.

"Some on here, were actually in the blood and the mud-Ran"

We know, we know. You never fail to mention it, and though you could be lying your ass off, I believe you. And yes, EVERYBODY was in the mud and blood in Nam, especially you. (DD214, indeed.)

Thank you Bryan, but I wasn... (Below threshold)

Thank you Bryan, but I wasn't referring to me, I'm sure you're aware that a number of vets post here and I noticed they haven't responded to this thread. It was THOSE FELLOWS I had in mind.

Synova:I mean,... (Below threshold)


I mean, I've heard people say that for Kyoto. That we should lie and sign it even if we have no intention of doing it at all.

How European of you.

Anonymity is a long accepte... (Below threshold)

Anonymity is a long accepted tradition and device in literature. I sockpuppet with glee.

And I get banned and delete... (Below threshold)

And I get banned and deleted by the gleeless. I swear it's my best stuff that gets deleted, whether sockpuppeted or not. I just got deleted at another echo aviary and not even for sockpuppetry.

bD, Plame was not covert, b... (Below threshold)

bD, Plame was not covert, by legal definition, only by casual CIA use. More coming out on that liar, and on Fitz's chicanery, soon. Tuesday is Libby sentencing day, you know.

Absolutists preach moral purity from their high perch in the gilded cage and drop pearls of wisdom on we poor mortals. If you want to see their paper being changed, look at Belgravia Dispatch, the torture threads. He didn't delete me there, but he didn't respond, either.

Greenwald uses sockpuppetry to try to enhance an argument, which is sophistical. I use it decoratively.

'frinstance:Delete... (Below threshold)


Delete. Delete. Delete. Now that's Dispatch.

Synova, the absolutist posi... (Below threshold)

Synova, the absolutist position about torture is morally pristine, but practically absurd. To deny any situation in which you would deliberately cause pain to another person is to deny your humanity. So, they temporize, and wiggle, and just sound precious.

Angelina Jolie will play the wife of Daniel Pearl in an upcoming movie. There is torture in an attempt to find out information about this journalist's whereabouts.

Personally, I don't think torture works. Rapport, given time, is more effective at gathering useful intelligence. But waterboarding is a smart bomb on the central nervous system, google 'diving reflex', and there is data that this technique is effective at gathering actionable intelligence when time is of the essence. If it can be shown to be 'humane', too, then wouldn't it be better to use in a decision tree created lawfully?

How would you deal with the Pearl scenario? Would you A establish rapport, B waterboard with accountability, or C, turn him over to the Pakis?

Soon there will be an executiv directive. That's what a lot of this storm and drowning is all about.

Answers:A. Pearl'... (Below threshold)


A. Pearl's dead. Time was of the essence.

B. Might have worked, and Pearl rejoined Joliefully with his family and the prisoner hale, hearty and with bad memories of his baptism.

C. Pearl's dead. Torture doesn't work.

You don't need a ticking bo... (Below threshold)

You don't need a ticking bomb or any absurd scenario. Look to the face of battle where the soldier must decide if the man in front of him should be kept alive or confronted with dying for his country until he can no longer confront our soldier with dying for his country. If the choice is kill or capture, then once captured, to confront the opponent again with his own mortality in order to gain actionable intelligence, is no big deal, and will be improvised unless the combatant can be assured that intelligence will be garnered effectively and in a timely manner.

The soldier fundamentally tortures, 'inflicts deliberate pain', so we don't have to. Control of that interface is, by contract, the Geneva conventions, and works if followed. If assymetrically followed, our side must control our part of the interface, which, to me implies a structure and a decision tree and accountability.

Here is the assymetry, and ... (Below threshold)

Here is the assymetry, and it is both chilling and reassuring.

An assymetric opponent, knowing that upon capture he will be waterboarded, housed, and fed, will enter battle easily.

The American soldier, knowing that upon capture he will be tortured to the ennuyance of his tormenters, then killed, will enter battle most cautiously.

It guarantees that the awesome voluntary American military machine will fundamentally only be used defensively, as it is now. It's the perfect foil to perfect American power.

Perfect? No, the "perfect"... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

Perfect? No, the "perfect" element to the terrorists' strategy, is knowing that a major political party can be counted on to desert the cause of their nation, simply because the White House is occupied by someone from the other party.

"simply because the Whit... (Below threshold)
Lee Ward:

"simply because the White House is occupied by someone from the other party."

If the White House is occupied by a Democrat it will be thanks to the expressed will of a majority of American voters.

You "simply" forgot that fact, DJ.






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