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Why I Still Buy China

It hasn't been a good year for China, Inc. You know, that "unstoppable" economy that was going to guarantee China's place as a superpower, maybe the dominatrix of the 21st Century? Yeah, well, seems there were a few assumptions there, some of them really big and foolish. Oh, we are so picky in the West, demanding cars that don't kill the people in them, tires that don't fall apart, toothpaste that doesn't poison people,
and toys that don't put our children in danger.

But let's not forget - they killed our dogs, too. Here in Texas, that's a serious crime. So yeah, I understand why folks would be talking about boycotting products from China, and I think China in general is being awfully stupid in how its handling the scandals. Blaming the media for scandals involving Chinese food is just dumb, and I also think China has acted unethically in manipulating its currency values to maintain trade advantages, but that's always been a big favorite with Communist regimes. So yes, there are a lot of good reasons to be wary of China, and to stay away from risky products.

- continued -

That said, I don't think I will shy away from a product, just because it's been made in China. First off, we need to be clear about what we are doing. I was never big on boycotts, because they never really seemed to have the effect they claimed. There are dozens of special-interest groups who boycott a range of major companies, and even after years of the campaign those companies remain strong and healthy. So, the only reason to participate in a boycott would be a personal choice. It also occurs to me, that a boycott is only effective if you are satisfied with the outcome. Most of the things we get from China, frankly, are low-priced for a reason, and the buyer needs to be aware of that. As a rule, I stay away from any food from an unknown origin. It may sound xenophobic, but I don't buy a food packaged in China for the same reason I do not buy a food packaged in Mexico or even England. That is, I consider if I know the company, I read the label and I look for indicators of Quality Management, like date seals and outside verification of quality. And I try not to over-react. What I mean is, the scandals which are hitting Chinese products seem indicative of an overall shoddiness, but each scandal has an American cousin. Chinese tires fall apart? Can you say "Firestone"? Chinese toothpaste contains a dangerous additive? Remember the scare about U.S. beef? The Brilliance is an extremely dangerous car which should not be sold in America, but then so was the Pinto, and you may recall that even Toyota had to recall over a million cars last year, and Ford is dealing with trucks that set themselves on fire. Yes, some Chinese companies are putting lead paint in children's toys, but not so long ago we thought it was a good idea to put asbestos in children's pajamas, to make them fire-resistant. My point is not to excuse these things, especially when they happen because of criminal behavior, but to point out a context to them.

If the majority of China's products were as bad as the examples we have seen in the news, thousands of people would have died and we'd see Congress using the kind of reckless language against China that is normally reserved for insulting the President. The United States should insist on safety standards for all imported products, but there should be encouragement as least as often as warnings.

Also, there is a need for America to stay on course with promoting Capitalism. If China's economy succeeds, it will inevitably mean that the Chinese people will align more with Capitalism and away from Collectivism. It's not Glasnost, but it is the right direction, and over the next generation a healthy Chinese economy is good for not only China's investors, but also China's customer and even for the business environment. The simple fact is that Globalization works, and tends to commit countries to participatory development of relations, and away from dictatorial command economies, which we all know simply starve their citizens and waste their resources.

Because the United States does not have the means to compel Chinese compliance with American laws, informal methods are necessary to accomplish improvements in Chinese practices. And the best of those methods depend on calm analysis and consideration of options.


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Comments (28)

Glasnost?The 80's ... (Below threshold)


The 80's revisionism of the Free Trade worshipers makes me weep every time.

Reagan starved the Soviets for several years. Their local 'useful idiots' used to protest our lack of trade with them. Only when they showed actual reform was trade increased. In fact, they weren't seduced in relenting releasing their empire by capitalism. We let them collapse under their own weight.

Capitalism is required for Freedom, but Freedom isn't required for Capitalism.

Yeah, we can seduce them to Capitalism and vitalize their economy. And that won't lead to anything but a more healthy dictatorship. And a more healthy antagonist in the world. I mean can you say China has been the least bit helpful with Iran, Iraq, or North Korea? If anything the US dollars we have given them allow them to buy oil from Iran reducing what our options are in terms of trade and dealing with Iran with sanctions.

Beer from England is pretty... (Below threshold)

Beer from England is pretty good, as is dairy products from Ireland. I highly recommend. Oh, and wine from Italy. Mmmm, Montepulciano d'Abruzzo.

Anyway, caveat emptor.

What we really need is to o... (Below threshold)

What we really need is to open trade with Cuba.

I share your feelings about... (Below threshold)

I share your feelings about boycotts. For me, it's a personal decision too. I don't try to urge others not to buy a certain product or from a certain company if the reason I don't is based on personal or political reasons. But of course, if it's a dangerous product, I'll try to make others aware.

Don't expect products from ... (Below threshold)

Don't expect products from China to really get any safer unless a major US/Canadian/EU/Japanese brand name is on the label. Although as the Firestone debacle shows, not even that is always a guarantee.

History gives clues that China is turning out as predicted by some. Read this comment on China from _1896_ reprinted in the latest issue of the Atlantic: "The industrial competition of China would be incomparably more dangerous to Western civilization than that of any other nation. They are adepts at combination, excellent financiers, shrewd and daring speculators. Though not yet rivals of Europeans in application of modern science to manufacture, they have given proof of ability to master that science."

Here, however, come some doubts.

"Will not the Chinaman of the year 2000 resemble in all things the familiar Chinaman of to-day? But modern China is not to be judged by her ancient literature, but by her present life. Men who know China also know that Chinese conservatism does not extend to those activities which belong to trade, to industry, to commerce or speculation. It is a conservatism in beliefs, ethics, and customs, and has nothing to do with business."

Will China someday have products that rival the quality seen coming from Japan? Perhaps, but I'm not holding my breath...

I avoid buying stuff from C... (Below threshold)

I avoid buying stuff from China not because I think it will do any good, but because I don't like buying stuff made from slave labor.
I imagine some poor, Chinese peasant, who's sweating away in some dimly-lit factory, noxious fumes wafting through the air from the poor cirulation, extremes of heat or cold as temperature control costs money, as he or she (quite often, a young child) makes some happy-painted, plastic piece of fun looking merchandise. That must really suck.

I don't like commies. I'm not religious on it, I do buy stuff from commie countries, but I don't like it and avoid it as much as I can.

How about not buying it bec... (Below threshold)
Tim in PA:

How about not buying it because a lot of the stuff they make is crap, even when ripped off of foreign designs?

Textiles, patio furniture, machine parts, you name it, I see them fail over, and over, and over

It seems that more and more people have lost the ability to recognize quality materials, labor, and design, as well as the ability to assign a realistic price to them. I'm not some sort of unhinged Walmart-hater or anything, but I think they've contributed to this problem.

Boycotts are dumb, but the ... (Below threshold)

Boycotts are dumb, but the market will push China into making improvements. Unfortunately, I think some people will die before specific Chinese products are avoided by global consumers.

Tim, before Wal-Mart you co... (Below threshold)
C-C-G Author Profile Page:

Tim, before Wal-Mart you could get cheap stuff at K-Mart. Before K-Mart there was Woolworth's.

It's not a recent phenomenon, in other words.

Jay said:>>What we r... (Below threshold)
Paul Hamilton:

Jay said:
>>What we really need is to open trade with Cuba.

Exactly. It's pretty obvious that what we've done for the last 45 years has been a total failure, so let's remind the people there of the advantages of capitalism rather than turning capitalism into the enemy. If we were to open up Cuba for trade and tourism, communism there would collapse within just a few years because it would lose all its popular support.

SATerp said:
>>the market will push China into making improvements.

I disagree, at least so far. China's economy is booming. Shoddy is okay because it seems like we've accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is disposable. The best example I can think of is the telephone. Used to be that you got a phone (from the phone company, of course) and it lasted FOREVER. The idea that a phone would wear out was just not even possible. Now you buy a crap phone, probably from China, for just a few dollars, and when it breaks in a year or two, you buy another one.

And this garbage has completely driven all the quality merchandise from the market. This is the great victory of China in the marketplace -- not only the price, but the attitude of buyers.

I recently purchased a Chin... (Below threshold)

I recently purchased a Chinese made motor scooter for far less than $800 wholesale price, a Coolster F5, and it's great and I drive it all over Portland, Oregon instead of a car most days. The manufacturer rates the gas mileage at 117.6mpg, and I'd driven up to nearly 40 miles an hour so far, but it can probably do 50+ and become just barely freeway capable if I make a minor modification to the varator and allow the cluth to more fully close on the CVT transmission, allowing it to operate in the fastest gear, or improve the exhaust tubing to a larger diameter, and improve the flow through, or add a larger carb jet. Mileage probably will improve as well to well over 100mpg as well.

I've always been a U.S. car fan. But the Chinese make some great quality for the very low price motor scooters that get extremely high mileage and are a real ball to drive compared to a car. Unlike a car, there's no four wheels, seat belts, air bags, or other stuff to hold you in. You just hang on to the handlebars for dear life, but that's just part of the thrill of an open vehicle like motorcycles and scooters.

I did everything I could to reduce the price of this vehicle by signing up as a dealer. Buying the vehicle wholesale. Having it delivered on a wood shipping pallet to my home, and building the bike myself, then making improvements like adding $6 a quart AMSOIL 4cycle Scooter Oil and $11 a quart AMSOIL SEVERE GEAR Oil to the transmission.

China gets a bad rap from a few crummy products. But some of their products like motor scooters are excellent for the money. The ChuanL Motorcycle Manufacturing Company builds 300,000 motorcycles, motor scooters and ATVs a year. The quality is very good for the low price compared to the overpriced stuff coming out of Japan, Italy and Europe. At thousands of dollars, the Harley Davidson products are way outside the market of Chinese made two-wheel transportation for under $1,000. In my case, way under $1,000.

America is built around a culture of big automobiles and trucks and Japan and South Korea both cater to that market rather than change tastes. But in China, the motor scooter has been long popular and the mileage rated at 117.6 miles per gallon is pretty darn terrific for a vehicle that is capable of 50+ miles per hour with some minor modifications. Where's Detroit's comparable 100mpg vehicles?

Hooson, do you have to whin... (Below threshold)
C-C-G Author Profile Page:

Hooson, do you have to whine about Detroit in every thread?

CCG, I'm actually one of De... (Below threshold)

CCG, I'm actually one of Detroit's biggest fans and supporters. What I can't figure out is why perfectly good companies such as AMERICAN MOTORS CORPORATION managed to go out of business. This company started in the late 1800's a bicycle manufacturing company, but gradually built a solid reputation around building sturdy economical Rambler automobile products, including after the merger of Hudson and Nash in the 1950's, which was the world's largest corporate merger in those days.

Eventually the mission of building sturdy high gas mileage automobiles gave way to building large automobiles like the Ambassador and Matador, and high performance AMX and Javelin cars, and the huge fat body Pacer, which was supposed to be an economy car, but certainly wasn't due to the huge 3,600lb. weight. Even the sturdy and economical Hornet-Gremlin-Concord-Spirit based lines of cars was not enough to save this company from economic doom after an agreement with Renault fizzled and CHRYSLER bought up the corporate assets in order to acquire the Jeep line of products, AMC's only successful money making product.

If Rambler grew from a bicycle company roots, then this should have always remained a part of their line of products, and could have included motorcycles and scooters as well, like SCHWINN does. Instead the NASH company evetually built Kelvinator refrigerators and increasingly large automobiles and lost sight of their mission. STUDEBAKER had less choice. They started from a blacksmith shop back in 1852, then went into the covered wagon business, but finally failed around 1966 with the end of the Studebaker car line, following the end of Packard in 1958.

Most Chinese companies are relatively new at building products, most dating back to only the 1980's or late 199O's, yet are able to make money on very tight profit margins where they wholesale products with these very small profit margins to American importers, yet with only a small budget of profit to reinvest in new tooling, machinery, etc, are able to expand and grow, while U.S. companies fail with much wider profit margins on their goods. Something is wrong with why American firms fail with big profit margins, and the Chinese succeed with small profit margins and grow and expand. The American style of management and what they expect as a salary may be the determining factor at the present collapse of many American companies.

The ChuanL Motorcycle Manufacturing company has only existed since 1989 in Taizhou City in China. Yet has grown to building very high quality products for the low price and giving employment to 1,500 employees including 280 highly techical staff employees. Where are the comparable American success stories outside of computer related goods since 1989?

There is something really different in the Chinese style of business as well, where they are extremely friendly to do business with and very polite, while many American companies convey a real sense of "I don't care" or even rudeness to their customers. Compared to putting up with this nonsense from American companies, many in business appreciate the very polite manner of business from the Chinese who really appreciate their customers and make every attempt to be decent to their customers unlike many American companies where rudeness often seems like job #1.

Many Americans need a real business attitude change. In the meantime, the Chinese are far better to do business because they actually appreciate their customers. This is another big reason that American companies are failing, and many in business find the Chinese far better to do business with. Compared to some Americans who act like some rude slob while on the job, the Chinese are highly professional and make great business partners. This is why many Chinese are probably the best businessmen in the world and appreciated by American importers.

<a href="http://wizbangblog... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

Paul Hooson,

I recently purchased a Chinese made motor scooter for far less than $800 wholesale price, a Coolster F5, and it's great and I drive it all over Portland, Oregon instead of a car most days. . .

I'm all for capitalism, but your praise for the Coolster F5 should be accompanied by the disclaimer that you sell this product through your merchandise website and stand to gain more than $200 on the sale of each scooter. Maybe the Coolster F5 is all you say and that's why you sell it. If so, you should say so. Otherwise, it appears you have a conflict of interest and a hidden agenda.

Paul Hooson, Who Knew. A ge... (Below threshold)

Paul Hooson, Who Knew. A gear head to boot? You may have impressed me. ww

Hooson, my point apparently... (Below threshold)
C-C-G Author Profile Page:

Hooson, my point apparently flew right over your head.

Mac Lorry, I drove my Chine... (Below threshold)

Mac Lorry, I drove my Chinese motorbike for over a month before I decided to add it to my merchandise site, RadioTvPartz Electronics, but made no attempt to reference my site above or link to it.

The same Chinese motorbike is also sold under the names of Tank Urban Sporty and by Roketa as well. I'm be the first to admit that you can find both a little cheaper than I'm offering my Coolster F5 models for if surf the net. I don't have the sales volume to cut prices much more than discount $999 for the $1795 F5 model. But I personally like the Chinese bike so much that I'm selling them. Instead of some just attacking Chinese products, as a merchant for many of their better made quality goods, I like to defend some of their good products that I approve of and sell. These particular brand of Chinese motorbikes from ChuanL are of great quality, offer great mileage, and super cheap to buy new compared to a new car or truck, and keep right up with any city traffic. Honda also contracts with some Chinese manufacturers to produce their 6Y6 engines, so even Honda is impressed with some Chinese companies.

WildWillie, yeah, I'm a major league gearhead type guy. I sure love all things with a motor and figure how to get the very best out of them, and also love the business side of this industry and history. The very best to you, WildWillie

CCG, Detroit could really help both themselves and the nation by showing the way to much higher mileage transportation that's fun to drive and environmentally friendly. It's a winner from every angle. If an upstart Chinese company that's only been in business since since 1989 like ChuanL can build great products, and a relatively new company like Suburu in Japan, only around since the mid 1960's can capture a large share of the American market with quality products, then Detroit certainly has the head start and brains to develop amazing products. So where are these products?

I'd like to see American manufacturing make a big comeback. But Chinese companies are doing a lot of things right, far beyond just offering low prices or cheap labor. It is some of the products they design themselves that are such a draw and their way of conducting business as well. The Chinese are simply good at business far beyond producing just cheap goods.

And the point continues to ... (Below threshold)
C-C-G Author Profile Page:

And the point continues to fly right over Hooson's head, it seems.

At least he's consistent.

Paul,I'm not debat... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:


I'm not debating the merits of the Coolster F5. The F5 may well be a quality machine, but readers shouldn't need to wonder about potential conflicts when a wizbang author praises a book, a place to eat, a movie, or a product. Other people have come to Wizbang and left advertisements for products they sell in the comments section, and these have been labeled SPAM and often removed. The point is that praising something without revealing you sell that thing is a deception.

Given you are listed as an author of Wizbang blue (or are a sock-puppet), that deception reflects on all of Wizbang. The solution is simple, anytime you praise a product you sell you need to disclose that link. That honesty will offset any loss of credibility from admitting you stand to gain from sales of the product. The MSM learned this lesson and bloggers need to learn it as well.

Hooson:Mac Lor... (Below threshold)


Mac Lorry, I drove my Chinese motorbike for over a month before I decided to add it to my merchandise site, RadioTvPartz Electronics, but made no attempt to reference my site above or link to it.

And how many times have you noted your owning of a Chinese produced bike.... wait... let me rephrase that...

How many times how you sung the bikes praises as if it were the greatest thing since the Iron Horse?

ANSWER... far too many times when weighed against the fact you potentially could use this site as a vehicle to profit from the sales of the bike via your business.

And Puleeeese, save us the crap about never noting you have a business that NOW sells it. In the infamous words of Fat Assed Rosie, Google it! You and your business is number seven on their "hit parade."

And BTW... "mister ecco-friendly," in all the times you have pimped this oh so good bike from China you've never answered these questions:

How much coal was burned to fire the power plant that builds that produces these "wonderful" bikes?

Do you know for a fact no child labor has been used in their production?

I suspect Hooson may be in ... (Below threshold)
C-C-G Author Profile Page:

I suspect Hooson may be in hot water again, like he was over the Coulter copyright issue.

One can only hope Kevin decides to rid Wizbang of Hooson this time.

Mac Lorry, When I saw that ... (Below threshold)

Mac Lorry, When I saw that all Chinese products were unfairly being attacked by some comments here, I felt compelled to defend many of their products, including my personal experience with a Chinese motor scooter. I trust my life on this product because it is so good and safe. I have no interest in trying to sell them here. Got that. I Just want to defend the reputation of many Chinese products that are good products for the money and safe. Period.

Marc, ditto for you. If I wanted to advertise merchandise here. I'd buy ads. But I'm not interested in selling anything here, nor do I want your business. I don't like difficult people, personally.I'm merely defending the reputation of some Chinese goods that I think are great. Got that. Is that simple enough for you to understand, pal? You're obsessed with stereotypical Cold War BS that all businesses in China are part of some big prison labor camp or all employ children, which is complete nonsense to anyone who had experience with the Chinese like myself in business. That's just a plain wrong opinion. In the 1960's that type of stuff disappeared with Mao, and the modern Chinese economy is one of beautiful hotels and casinos, and greatly improved working conditions in newer factories, many of which have been built since the late 1980's, replacing older businesses with dirty unsafe working conditions such as small neighborhood metal foundaries created during the first GREAT LEAP FORWARD that failed under Mao. When the Olympics are held in China, the world will see a modern developing economy that is impressive in it's beauty and growth. More world trade will result because of this.

Sony, Panasonic, Samsung and many brands of high quality electronics have contracted for products made for them in China, and they are just as good as any made in Japan or Korea and made in clean factories by clean, educated adult workers who are paid good wages by Chinese standards.

It is only the very small suppliers who have put on the market poisoned dog food supplies or other bad products, mainly food, from these very small suppliers, not the larger established companies. How many times have American made products like Firestone tires made in the U.S. been recalled? What about Mexican made food goods pulled off the market because of a high lead content? Bad products exist very close to home, where generally only the better or best products from China are exported.

CCG, I raised some serious questions about why I think that American manufacturing is failing and Chinese business succeeding. Let's hear from someone much smarter than yourself that has an education in business or can speak intelligently that can discuss this issue instead of your mental retard personal attacks. You're not bright enough to have any opinions on why Chinese business is growing and American manufacturing is contracting, just BS personal attack stuff. Maybe there should be a minimum IQ standard here, where an IQ needs to be this high, just like getting on a ride at Disneyland or something. Got that sport. You can start by subscribing to the WALL STREET JOURNAL so you can learn to understand business at least a little, pal.

Any old Joe can attack China over some bad dog food. But a person with any business knowledge of China knows of many quality goods that have appeared at international trade shows that were impressive from China or products that won awards internationally. Some of my best friends are some Hong Kong businesspersons. I'd put them head and shoulders over most Americans anyday in intelligence, character and work ethic.

Hearing stupid stereotype racist nonsense about China makes me mad. Overall, I have a very high respect level for the Chinese in business. Most of them are great businesspersons. Good night.

Paul Hooson,<blockquo... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

Paul Hooson,

Mac Lorry, When I saw that all Chinese products were unfairly being attacked by some comments here, I felt compelled to defend many of their products, including my personal experience with a Chinese motor scooter. I trust my life on this product because it is so good and safe. I have no interest in trying to sell them here. Got that. I Just want to defend the reputation of many Chinese products that are good products for the money and safe. Period.

I'm not debating any of that, and in fact your last post (#22) is far more effective in defending Chinese products because you do sell them and have actual experience with Chinese business people. I also run a business, and became much more interested in your opinions once I found out about your business. Many commenters on Wizbang are involved in or at least support capitalism, so your having an on-line business is overall a plus.

That said, the only issue you need to addressed is giving a disclaimer in any comments or pieces you post that includes products you sell. Just tell me you will do that going forward and the issue will be put to rest. You know, or should know, it's the right thing to do.

Obviously not everything ma... (Below threshold)
Tim in PA:

Obviously not everything made there is crap - but you can't deny a lot of it is. I'm not talking "boycott" here or anything- just use common sense, which is sadly lacking in a lot of consumers these days.

Hooson, the point is, you g... (Below threshold)
C-C-G Author Profile Page:

Hooson, the point is, you got some free advertising here, and you therefore probably owe Kevin some money. Not to mention an apology for advertising on his blog without asking his permission.

I suspect he will get neither. You're up on your lefties-are-superior-to-conservatives high horse, and thus you'll pontificate that there was nothing wrong with what you did, despite the fact that if someone did that over at Blue, you'd be up in arms about it.

By the way, since you're so keen on business matters, which President of the USA has had a Harvard MBA? There's only been one in the history of the Republic to have that honor, you know.

Hooson:I don't... (Below threshold)


I don't like difficult people, personally.I'm merely defending the reputation of some Chinese goods that I think are great. Got that. Is that simple enough for you to understand, pal?

You can defend their goods all you want, no one hear has offered the suggestion you can't or shouldn't. The ONLY point made is you should have disclosed your relationship to the produce.

You're obsessed with stereotypical Cold War BS that all businesses in China are part of some big prison labor camp or all employ children

I am? Where's the quote that indicates that?

My question was, "Do you know for a fact no child labor has been used in their production?."

And you didn't answer a simple question and made a sad attempt to twist that question into an accusation that I decades behind reality.

NEWSFLASH asshat, you better check with the many human rights orgs that continually report violations of ILO Convention No. 59 Concerning Minimum Age for Admission to Employment in Industry and the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.

Their violations are well documented and I suspect you ARE aware of them and that has caused you to first fail to answer a simple question (at least say "I don't know" if that's the case) and second, make a ludicrous suggestion I'm living in the Cold World ear.

Well "sir," you're living in a bubble of denial as you sit your pompous ass astride your oh so ecco-frindly chinese made scooter.

And BTW, how much coal was burned to power that scooter plant?

Another simple question you fail to answer.

Better question... how much money have you funneled into the pockets of Gore by the purchase of phoney carbon credits?

We are a lacquer ware Compa... (Below threshold)

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There would be a reason for... (Below threshold)

There would be a reason for people who outsourcing to China.While China will fight on the anti-dumping claims, it will also continue to review and revise its own trade structure to improve its trade balance (and international relations)
I belive that it's very hard for consumers to forswear Chinese imports because of the low price. There is no harm in the trade of China & US.On the contrary, the trade of the two countries can strengthen their mutual supplement with the advantages of each.
If some problems were found in trade, so the importance is to solves the problem, but not discontinue the trade, perhaps such desistance might causes more problems, such as mentioned in the article.
AmeriChinaB2B is one of the professional B2B trade marketplaces to facilitate online trades between exporters and importers from America and China.Welcome to AmeriChinaB2B( http://www.acb2b.com/ ) to begin your business trip of China.






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