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Once Again The Difference

Whoopi Goldberg's racist comments yesterday on 'The View' have earned their share of rebuke, (ht Kevin and WSBTV) but it is also a helpful illustration of the dilemma faced by Goldberg and her fellow thuggists. It is patently false to claim that dog-fighting is culturally accepted by the majority of people in any part of the United States, and for Ms. Goldberg to offer such a weak argument warns me that there is something far closer to home which she wants to avoid. Goldberg wants to blame a group of her choosing, rather than face up to a serious problem with her lifestyle culture. The 'Thug Life' is a stupid, self-destructive one, which offers no real advantages while denying young men and women their very identities in the coming world. A culture which glamorizes violence, selective hatred and racism, vulgarity and promiscuity, the 'Thug Life' also cheats young people of opportunity by cutting off access to advancement in business and social communities; while advocates claim small success in niche outlets based on the expression of the cult, the world in general rejects the hatred practiced by this cult and those who express it.

It is normal in human behavior to go through a stage of rebellion, but maturity requires a person to accept reality and address conditions constructively. The way is difficult, but success rewards the individual with stable friendships and marriages, success in financial endeavors and professional growth, and in the additional tool of conflict resolution and negotiation. The 'Thug Life' culture, however, which appears to me to be an extension of the 'I'm a Victim' culture made prevalent by extensive Welfare and other government programs which subsidize poverty and helplessness, actively discourages reaching out to different cultural groups, and ridicules individuals who seek to better themselves through hard work and education. The sum effect of the 'Thug Life' is to invite despair and failure in place of hope and joy, and so the end of Mr. Vick's career is representative of the culture he embraced, rather than an outlier.

I hasten to emphasize that the 'Thug Life' is not restricted to a single demographic group. As we have seen in even recent history, women as well as men engage in it, Whites and Hispanics as well as Blacks, and in all geographic areas. It is not a 'Southern' problem, because the behavior is also prevalent in the North and on both coasts. It takes on different aspects according to the selected hatred of choice by the groups which practice it, so that the Crips have much in common with the Aryan Nation, more than either group would like to admit. It is pervasive, in the same way that a particularly vicious variant of a virus strikes the whole country in a wave, and it is just as deadly. I do not find it a coincidence, that the culture which thinks nothing of killing dogs in fights for amusement, loses so many young people to drugs, alcohol, and violence as well. At the risk of sounding like a revival preacher, it also occurs to me that this culture is depressingly void of a spiritual dimension. It is, therefore, no wonder that a culture which mocks God cannot find Him when they finally realize their need for Him.


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Comments (35)

"It is, therefore, no wonde... (Below threshold)

"It is, therefore, no wonder that a culture which mocks God cannot find Him when they finally realize their need for Him. "

But, didn't Vick recently state that he's found Jesus (again)?

It seems to me that people find their spiritual roots all the time - just AFTER they've done something heinous.

Or, after a touchdown.

By the by - on Sportscenter, last night, Whoopi was discussed and fully smacked down when the reporter (forget his name) reminded all of us that Vick grew up in Newport News, VA. For those not familiar with geography (South Carolina beauty contestants not withstanding), Newport News is nowhere near the deep south.

Guyna should stay in the TE... (Below threshold)
spurwing plover:

Guyna should stay in the TEN FORWARD and forget the boring lectures

I take particular offense o... (Below threshold)

I take particular offense of the "cultural upbringing" argument. Is it a cultural thing to break the law? If it's just a cultural thing, then why is it so widely seen as repugnant?

Those that argue that Whoopi didn't defend Vick may be technically correct, but it certainly was an excuse. This isn't some third world country where "culture" can be an excuse or even a reason; where a particular practice is so widespread and has been acceptable by a majority of the population for generation upon generation, that it should even be a reasonable rationalization.

Vick's father even expressed his disapproval, so there is no indication that this "culture" that Vick is just a victim of didn't come from his upbringing either.

Whoopie got herself fired a... (Below threshold)

Whoopie got herself fired as spokeshole for Slimfast for making Bush/Vagina jokes.

She also waved a hanger at an anti-Bush/Pro-abortion rally which would have amused the founder of Planned Parenthood, Margaret Sanger, who founded Planned Parenthood to Eugenically cleanse away the black race:

As a eugenicist, Sanger's goals were to discourage the "unfit" and "inferior" from reproducing. In her 1922 book Pivot of Civilization, she called for segregation of "morons, misfits, and the maladjusted" and sterilization of "genetically inferior races."

In implementing a plan called the "Negro Project," that was designed to sterilize Blacks and reduce the number of Black children being born in the south, Sanger wrote:
"[We propose to] hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. And we do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members."

But it is BabaWawa that is the massa. She hires clowns... in order... Star Jones, Mo'Nique, Rosie O'Donnell, and now Whoopie Goldberg...

Whoopie is just a minstrel set to dance... to amuse the liberals of 'The View'.

We have a "spiritual dimens... (Below threshold)

We have a "spiritual dimension" of a sort, DJ. It's a "Cult of Celebrity", and it's influence can be felt everywhere. It's behind our culture's fixation on immediate gratification, and the belief that everything is ephemeral "so you'd better get yours' before it's gone." Nothing is worthwhile unless it happens when you're young and hot, and those who become famous whilst possessing youth and beauty are demi-gods. "Thug Culture" is a natural outgrowth of this, as it represents the ultimate "I have money, therefore I am above the law" mentality.

/ Just my two cents.

I can't believe I'm quiotin... (Below threshold)

I can't believe I'm quioting myself (LOL):

"Thug Culture" is a natural outgrowth of this, as it represents the ultimate "I have money, therefore I am above the law" mentality.

Seriously, have you ever seen an old Thug?

Disclaimer: I am a moderate... (Below threshold)
Chris G:

Disclaimer: I am a moderate conservative, not aligned with any political party, although I think most Democrats would whore their grandmother out if it would get them elected(No offense to anyone else whoring their grandmother out). I have a strong sense of right and wrong, and think most people spend time making excuses than correcting a problem to ensure it won't happen again. With that being said...

I agree with Ms. Goldberg to the extent that most whites are failing to see the possibility that certain things exist that is not a big deal in some cultures, they may find repulsive within their own. Dog fighting, cock fighting, boar fighting occur across segments of the Black, Aisian, and Hispanic cultures. Just like fox hunting and poaching wild game are more prevelant in the certain demographics in the white community.

True, a certain segment of the Black community glamorizes the "Thug Life" mentality. But most Blacks reject that mentality, while at the same time understanding how it could happen and why it still happens. However, White people who are "Shocked, Shocked I tell you" that dog fighting occurs need to check their history. Dog fighting and cock fighting have been practiced in the Black community since the days of slavery, primarily as a means to raise money or obtain other goods.

No, I'm taking it back to Slavery, I'm just stating most Blacks, even if 98% have never been personally involved in dog fighting, did not think it was a big deal in the grand scheme of things. The more unpleasant things (regardless of whose fault it is) one deals with, you subconsciously prioritize those things you ignore and those things you can't ignore. dog fighting is one of those things.

Most Blacks felt that Vick should have been fined the maximum penalty , gotten probation (maybe 2 months max in the off-season)and been suspended 4-8 games. But the from the public outrage, you would think he was performing abortions in those sheds on his property, or traficking kiddie porn, or running a meth cartel. I am no where aligned with Michael Dyson, Deion, or Whoopi politically. However, growing up on the South side of Chicago, I saw a lot of foul or unpleasant things take place... dog Fighting was the least of them. A little bit of perspective goes a long way.

Finally, let us not forget, that the glamorized foolishness of the fabricated "Thug Life" mentality, while born in the Black community, was made mainstream in middle America 10-15 years ago by ... White Suburban kids who wanted to experience the "Real Flava" of the hood. Are these same "culturally aware" suburbanites shocked that dog fighting, in combination with drug dealing is taking place in the hood?

Jeez that margie sanger was... (Below threshold)

Jeez that margie sanger was real peach!! Do you think that woopie, sarandon, fonda and the rest of the hollywood wackjobs know the real intentions of the founder of PP? Oh wait...they would never let facts intrude into their limosine/jetset fantasy world...

Langtry,Not often,... (Below threshold)


Not often, although Castro and Robert Mugabe come to mind.

Most thugs in this country end up dead, behind bars, or in political office.

Chris, apparently you are c... (Below threshold)

Chris, apparently you are conservative in the same way that John McCain is a fan of Blogs. That is to say, you use the name when it suits you, but you ignore the history and significance of the movement in context, so that the sum effect is a lie.

Goldberg was desperately trying to shift attention towards a non-existent demographic, in order to avoid facing the reality of her chosen lifestyle.

I made it quite clear that this is not a Race issue, but a culture of violence and degradation. I know that many blacks are outraged by Vicl's behavior, because I have black co-workers and neighbors who made their opinion quite clear. Your comments do not track with reality, but seem intended to perpetuate a false stereotype.

Do try to keep up and read the whole article, rather than just skim for something you can biotch about. You'll look less stooopid.

Lagtry said:Seriousl... (Below threshold)
Paul Hamilton:

Lagtry said:
Seriously, have you ever seen an old Thug?

Bull Connor, the racist sheriff from the civil rights era, comes to mind. There are a lot of others who talk the game but expect other to do the fighting for them.

I doubt that many are aware... (Below threshold)

I doubt that many are aware that eugenics and specifically reducing the number of black babies born is at the roots of Planned Parenthood.

Whoopie was funny, really funny, when she was first making movies. I thought she was great.

I don't know if actors simply despise their work that much or what, but it seems like it's not good enough for some of them and they are compelled to take up "causes." And we all suffer for it, not least because we lost a very funny lady.

And yes... I think it's the Thug Culture and not a black thing or anything else that glamorizes crime, violence and prostitution. It might be partly a reaction against the cultural demand that men become feminized. (The Promise Keepers was a similar reaction in a different direction.) If we want to talk about hyper-masculinization it's probably evident in the Thug Culture but in an unnecessarily negative way... the warrior culture but without the self-less protective elements or chivalry.

DJ..I'm not sure if religio... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

DJ..I'm not sure if religion was the whole difference..more like the courage simply to do the right thing and to take reponsibility for one's own actions..Interesting to see what the Black churchs thought of Michael Vick, during all of this..Here is one response, from a 'major player' at the height of the Vick controversy. 'Southern Christian Leadership Conference Will Honor Michael Vick'...Evidently their President after much debate was ultimately persuaded from doing so, but it makes you wonder?

Drummond I simply ... (Below threshold)
Chris G:


I simply put together my personal opinion, supported by facts on the issue. While I never said you were trying to make it into a race issue, it clearly is one considering the different levels of outrage among Blacks and Whites. You did not take it there, it already is there. While stationed in the Phillipines I witnessed dog fighting and cock figitng. Not my thing, but it happens. I also saw girls barely in their teens walking the streets. I was so outraged by the latter, the former seemed insignificant or really not that serious.

You have Black co-workers who were "OUTRAGED and DISGUSTED". I have black acquantainces who were troubled, but not completely undone. No, they are not from the hood, but are 200K/year attorneys. The general atitude I ENCOUNTER is "It's wrong, but the outrage is snot fitting the crime. Child molestors are facing less vitriol than VIck". Note, I never said he should escape any penalty. The punishment should fit the crime, as definend by the statute, balanced with the same consideration a judge would give to any first time offender.

Notice I did not attack anyone to make my point. While I agree with 99.9% of your posts, we differ in opinion on this one matter, so I doubt that would make me a McCain who I am no fan of. And if you even do a cursory review of my posts on your blogs you would certainly fail to see any remote hint that I am a liberal, or a McCain-esque moderate.

No need to get defensive. I was not implying nefarious prejudices on your part. I simply stated that out of the broad spectrum of things people across cultural lines may see, dog fighting among the ethinic poor is common enough for people to not be outraged. That is not character issue, it is a fact.

As far as my conservative credentials: 7 year vet of the Air Force, participant of Desert Storm, voted for Bush twice, any family event where one knocks the war, Bush, or conservatives, I am there earnestly defending. I voted against Max Cleeland, Cynthia McKinney and the like. Am against abortion, and universal healthcare, I want the Bush tax breaks to be permenant. I also want to seal the border and deport illegals, starting with the ones incarcerated in the penal system. And I'm an avid reader your site, Michelle Malkins, Lashawn Barber, Newsbusters, and Booker Rising. In other words, I am conservative thru and thru, who just happens to have had enough life experiences to have a different perspective on an insigficant issue as dog fighting.

The 1 issue out of 100 we differ on, you get your panties in a wad. My bad?! You're not like that Markos and DU crowd that demands 100% agreement, lest one faces ridicule and revile are you? I though you were better than that.

Now you're whining, Chris? ... (Below threshold)

Now you're whining, Chris? I thought you understood that people might respond to your comments, and that it is my habit to speak my opinion.

I've lived in the South, ar... (Below threshold)

I've lived in the South, around Blacks and Whites, my whole life, and I have never heard of, seen, encountered dog fighting.

This is something that is completely deviant and (extremely small) part of a dysfunctional segment of the population.

I believe Vick lied to investigators when he was first tied to the dog fight gang, told them it was only his friends or family doing it, and pleaded innocence. Maybe that has something to do with the penalty.

It may be also that it was a fairly robust group he was "leading" in this endevour, like a criminal enterprise (which it was, frankly). Illegal betting as well.

There is more here than a Saturday night one-off dog fight, for crying out loud.

Damn Drummond, that was rat... (Below threshold)
Chris G:

Damn Drummond, that was rather whiney.
*Ripping chest hair out as a affirmation of manliness*

Now I'm off to club some baby seals and feed them to my pet alligators :)

Written like a shiny pony c... (Below threshold)

Written like a shiny pony caught in a $400 haircut, Chris.

At some point you may consider that comparing Vick to a "first-time offender" is as bogus as declaring "credentials" to prove you are a conservative, when your words don't track to the Right.

To repeat your own claim, that is not a "character issue, that is a fact".

Black's Law Dictionary: Fir... (Below threshold)
Chris G:

Black's Law Dictionary: First Time Offender - One convicted of a legal offense for the first time. Self-Explanatory. Not trying to be funny but..... has Vick been convicted of a crime prior to now. Public opinion is important, however it is not part of the legal definition. Pity

Also, here I've been blaming hypocritical liberals (Abortion Good-Dog Fighting Bad). for fueling this outrage. Are you now co-opting death to dog-fighters as the definitive official numero uno conservative issue, rendering my self deluded conservative stances moot? Oh, I get it. It's kind of like libs labeling Lieberman "Bush Lite"' and a "Neo-Con"' for supporting the Iraq War, despite his 90% voting record on Democratic initiatives over 20 years. Yeah, you're right. My thinking Vick should be fined, suspended from the league, getting probation, yet not thinking that dog-fighting is at the top of the food chain for heinous offenses makes me a flaming lib. If Kerry and Kennedy were my senators, I would be bitter too.

Chris, see post 16 as to wh... (Below threshold)

Chris, see post 16 as to why this doesn't get leniency.

By the way, a first time offender murderer gets no slack, so your Blacks Law Dictionary reference fails to capture the nuance of the law.

I'm a lawyer, by the way, so don't try anything stupid, like citing more Blacks for your posts.

The problem you have Chris,... (Below threshold)

The problem you have Chris, is that the connotation of 'first-time offender' is a mild offence. Your explanation would make the Menendez brothers first time offenders, since the cold-blooded murder of their parents was their first. Surely even you understand that the phrase is ill-chosen, given the scale and scope of Vick's criminal enterprise.

Next, if you want to talk about other offenses, it makes perfect sense to do so when that is actually the topic.

Instead, you seem to ba making excuses for the torture and deliberate killing of dogs by Vick - he's admitted to ordering and participating in such things as slamming dogs' heads to the ground, electrocuting them, and strangling them to death. All because they were not vicious enough in his opinion.

Deliberate cruelty to animals has been linked in studies to the same psychopathic condition in serial murderers, by the way.

Please excuse me for thinking that such behavior, deliberate and callous, deserves prison time and the absolute loss of any position in the NFL or any other high-visibility enterprise with an image of respectability. If he gets the hard five years and never sniffs a shoe contract again in his life, it will be no worse than Mr. Vick has earned.

Because Vick, Dogg, countless NBA gangsta hoodlums, and the whole culture they sell is a lie which condemns countless youths to failure and self-destruction.

There's no excusing that. None whatsoever.

Chris M..I think you need s... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Chris M..I think you need some new co-workers...I read soemwhere that 70% of murderers, take pleasure friom wantonly injuring animals..I had the personal experience of having a neigbor in Brazil who even played with my young daughter, and I thought was perfectly normal and good-natured until I saw him kick a dog on the street for practically no reason (cruelty to animals is little more common here)..A week later I saw him on TV confessing to the stabbing to death and robbery of his father and killing of his girl friend, offences he had committed a year earlier.
from Wikpedia under dog-fighting "Even seasoned law enforcement agents are consistently appalled by the atrocities that they encounter before, during, and after dog fights, children in those communities are routinely exposed to the unfathomable violence that is inherent within the blood sport and become conditioned to believe that the violence is normal. Those children are systematically desensitized to the suffering, and ultimately become criminalized."

Mitchell,You're a ... (Below threshold)
Chris G:


You're a lawyer? Big friggin' deal. I'm a second year law student. And your point is? First Time Offender leniency is often considered with many felonies. Is this the case with dog fighting? I guess we shall see.

I'm further disappointed, as an experienced practicing lawyer that you are, that would compare dog-fighting with murder of a human. I would compare dog fighting with poaching or other animal cruelty acts. If that was the case, we would be comparing Vick's potential 5 years for the dog fighting charges alone, to say 25-years to life for a murder

Still defending cruelty to ... (Below threshold)

Still defending cruelty to animals, Chris?

Geez, what school are you going to, the Al Sharpton School of Relative Morality and Expedient Mercenary Law?

Even a FIRST-semester student can generally understand the difference between the law and moral standards. It's 'disappointing', as you put it, that you have not mastered that unsubtle distinction.

Chris, you miss many points... (Below threshold)

Chris, you miss many points I made, but your writing makes it clear that you are a 2L, and not a licensed attorney.

I didn't compare murderers to dog-fighters--you did that. I merely demonstrated "first time offender" rule is not uniformly applied. Simple logic, but you missed it.

Also, you further blindly asserted the rule despite my injecting additional facts here, in post 16. You disregarded those; a judge wouldn't let you through the first minute of your oral argument without calling you on that.

Kids these days! Oy vey.

Langtry:Seriou... (Below threshold)


Seriously, have you ever seen an old Thug?

Actually, there are thousands of them here, at least the ones that haven't had a shive stuck in their neck.

It seems the problem is spreading.

Wonder if The Views new Whoopty-doo would excuse them?

As a side note Ireland has a long history of dog fighting and some of the "best bloodlines" come from there.

Chris, go use your legal re... (Below threshold)

Chris, go use your legal research skills and look up the federal sentencing guidelines for the offense Vick pled to, and the probable mitigating and enhancing factors.

It would make your comments look more professional.

From #23You'... (Below threshold)

From #23

You're a lawyer? Big friggin' deal. I'm a second year law student. ....that is funny!

the comment by Whoopi was s... (Below threshold)
Dave W:

the comment by Whoopi was stupid, but it's a definite upgrade from Rosie. At the very least it was a civilized conversation. It was at least a little bearable to listen to.

SPQR - I'll keep that in mi... (Below threshold)
Chris G:

SPQR - I'll keep that in mind if I want to gain points by being a professional lawyer on an informal blog. The effort you are asking for should result in an A or B grade, or some billable hours. This is a blog. Thanks though.

Mitchell - Forgive the disrespect. As a practicing attorney, you will always know more than I will, even after I've been practicing. You are right that the FTO rule is more nuanced to consider mitigating circumstances such as if the activity was asociated with a drug enterprise, etc. I'm just hard pressed to find a federal prosecution for dog-fighting, not hinged on drug activity.

Drummond - Vick gets
a felony conviction - I agree

$250,000 fine - I agree, but I would make it $1 Million

Loses $50 Million dollars in endorsement deals - I agree

Loses $10 Million in salary this year - I agree

Will probaly serve 15 months in prison - I agree somewhat

By a conservative estimate, has lost upwards of $125 Million dollars in earnings - I agree

5 years hard Fed time - I just disagree, mainly because I've seen worse get less.

That hardly qualifies as lenient, but even my wife doesn't agree with me about everything.

5 years--I agree that's too... (Below threshold)

5 years--I agree that's too much time.

SPQR - I'll keep t... (Below threshold)
SPQR - I'll keep that in mind if I want to gain points by being a professional lawyer on an informal blog. The effort you are asking for should result in an A or B grade, or some billable hours. This is a blog. Thanks though.

Then you should reconsider silly comments like this:

You're a lawyer? Big friggin' deal. I'm a second year law student. And your point is?

Sounds like Chris is trying... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

Sounds like Chris is trying to have a reasonable discussion, and raises some good points.

Sounds like Les is Chris us... (Below threshold)

Sounds like Les is Chris using an alias ...

DJ, you are a hoot.... (Below threshold)

DJ, you are a hoot.






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