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Joe the Plumber on Obama's Plan -- Scary and Socialist

Earlier in an add on to Kevin's post about Joe the Plumber, I referred to an interview on Good Morning America today.

Here is video of that GMA interview (the transcript appears after the jump):

Update: Some idiot liberal bloggers are saying there is a big scandal because Joe the Plumber doesn't make $250,000 and would (GASP) actually get a tax cut under Obama's plan! I could not make the case against their liberal socialist plan any better than they themselves are. Hey, rocket scientists, here is what Joe said: "I'm getting ready to buy a company that makes about 250, 270 - 80 thousand dollars a year, your new tax plan is going to tax me more isn't it? I'm getting taxed more and more for fulfilling the American dream." Got that? He didn't say he makes that now. You should have gotten the clue when he said "I am getting ready to buy a company." Evidently the Obama talking points went out saying Joe doesn't make $250,000 and the idiot lib bloggers ate it up and didn't bother watching the actual comment Joe the Plumber made, but rather reported this fact as some big Republican lie.

Brace yourself, Joe. The Obama Thugocracy is gunning for you. But what they don't seem to understand is that even if Joe was John McCain's long lost son and a huge donor to the GOP, or not even a plumber, it would not matter at all because what was shocking about the video was not what Joe the Plumber said. Joe the Plumber is not going to be making tax policy. What was shocking and more relevant than anything else that has been said in the entire campaign is what Barack Obama said. He told Joe that it is okay to soak those making more than $250,000, even small businesses making that, because then you can "spread the wealth" around and everyone benefits. That is redistribution of wealth -- taking from the rich (and from the kinda rich) and giving to the not so rich and the poor. And Obama admitted to it. Out loud. And on video. That is a huge deal. Whether Joe the Plumber is a Democrat or a Republican. Whether the Obama thugs accuse him of being a plant or a liar or a the father of Trig Palin (seriously they have made crazier claims) does not change what Obama said. If the scenario described by Joe was real or completely fabricated would not change the fact that Obama, the man asking to be allowed to reshape America's tax policy, said out loud what his philosophy on taxes is and it amounts to redistribution (spreading, if you will) of wealth. Unless the Obama thugs want to claim the video is not real, and that Obama didn't really say that, then it really doesn't matter what Joe the Plumber said. But for the record, he said he is "getting ready to buy a company" not that he is currently making $250,000 and that is also what he told Diane Sawyer today when she asked him if he makes that now.

Update II: Maybe the thugocracy is getting its marching orders from Joe "not a plumber" Biden.

ABC's "Good Morning America"
October 16, 2008

ABC's Diane Sawyer: "Well I just want to ask you now about the issue that was raised because it's been a little confusing to me as I tried to sort it out here. To get straight here, you're not taking home $250,000 now, am I right?"

Joe Wurzelbacher: "No. No. Not even close."

Sawyer: "And you were you asking -- about the prospect, the hope that someday you would make $250,000, and you were saying you didn't want that to be taxed?"

Wurzelbacher: "Well, exactly. Exactly. I mean not that I don't want to be taxed. You have to be taxed. But to -- just because you work a little harder to have a little bit more money taken from you, I mean, that's scary. You know as opposed to other people. I worked hard for it. Why should I be taxed more than other people?"

Sawyer: "Well if people making $250,000 should not be taxed additionally -- by the way, it's 3% from 36% to 39% under Senator Obama's plan. If those people should not be taxed additionally, even though they're in the top 5% of America, what about people who make $1 million? Or $5 million?"

Wurzelbacher: "Well, I mean, quite honestly, why should they be penalized for being successful. I mean, that's what you're telling me. That's what it sounds like you're saying. That's wrong. Because you're successful, you have to pay more than everybody else? We all live in this country. It's a basic right. And Obama wants to take that basic right and penalize me for it, is what it comes down to. That's a very socialist view and it's incredibly wrong. I mean, $250,000 now. What if he decides, well you know $150,000, you're pretty rich too. Let's go ahead and lower it again. You know it's a slippery slope. When's it going to stop?"


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Comments (167)

Wurzelbacher famil... (Below threshold)
Adrian Browne:

Wurzelbacher family donations to various politicians and PACs and committees:


Maybe we need to get Joe th... (Below threshold)

Maybe we need to get Joe the Plumber, to run for office? It seems he can at least identify a socialist when he sees one. Maybe Palin could use him as a running mate in 20012?

Spot on Adrian. I am just a... (Below threshold)

Spot on Adrian. I am just as shocked as you that a tradesman would donate to Republicans. Well, wait, that is unless he feels that he would get to keep more of his hard-earned money to support his family under a Republican administration. He probably doesn't understand that it's so yesterday to believe a father can provide independently for his family. He probably is just one of these yokels that hasn't read the book about the "village".

Well, Adrian, what exactly ... (Below threshold)

Well, Adrian, what exactly are you trying to say with that response of yours?

Was that like supposed to be some subtle snarky response?

ya do gotta love it...Sa... (Below threshold)

ya do gotta love it...Sawyer: "Well if people making $250,000 should not be taxed additionally -- by the way, it's 3% from 36% to 39% under Senator Obama's plan."

Diane can't just ask Joe the question...she needs to throw in the Obama SPIN at the same time. Obama is NOT just talking about a THREE PERCENT increase. He has routinely talked about tax brackets that go up to FIFTY PERCENT!! But Diane tries to minimize the increase we're talking about.

Joe the Plumber may just BE the "Everyman" we need for this election!!

Of course, if he DOES endorse McCain then the Obama camp will destroy his life! Ex-girlfriends, a bartender he yelled at in college, overdue books at the library, parking tickets...

Is this Joe Sixpack the Plu... (Below threshold)

Is this Joe Sixpack the Plumber?

Could be, Ryan - you know, ... (Below threshold)

Could be, Ryan - you know, the mythical guy that the Democrats are always 'for'?

Lazy and jealous people wou... (Below threshold)

Lazy and jealous people would favor socialism. It is the easy way out. And misery loves company. It has nothing to do with being fair.

Id people like B Hussein wa... (Below threshold)

Id people like B Hussein want to 'share the wealth', one would think he and Biden would have donated far far more than the mere pittance they've somehow extracted from their deep pockets.

He's absolutely right -- it... (Below threshold)

He's absolutely right -- it sets a terrible precedent. And yea, Sawyer is spinning the question w/ O's talking points.

Obambi wants to share YOUR ... (Below threshold)

Obambi wants to share YOUR wealth, not his. He was very generous with tax payer money when he gave Ayers millions as head of his foundation.

It was sickening to watch O... (Below threshold)
Independent in FL:

It was sickening to watch Obama constantly laughing-off serious questions that McCain raised. Does Obama really understand how serious this job is, and just how dangerous this world has become? He just doesn't seem to get it.

Adrian - Did you notice th... (Below threshold)

Adrian - Did you notice the latest DATE on that list?

October 31, 2002

Independent:Its al... (Below threshold)


Its all just a mask. Of course he understands, he's acting coy and guileless to undermine the attacks. Its a classic response for those with personality disorders (not that the O man has a personality to have a disorder of). It also works for con men (and that he is).

Got a gut hunch t... (Below threshold)

Got a gut hunch that Joe the plumber will be the October Surprise for McCain. I think he'll resonate across party lines, and it'll rersonate in McCain's favor.

Adrian Browne is trying to ... (Below threshold)

Adrian Browne is trying to prove what? Oh my God! He gives money to Republican politicians! Read my link. It so PROVES, ummm....something, I'm sure. What? That he's "part" owner of a company he wants to buy out? He already said that when talking to Cavuto.

Independent in FL -<p... (Below threshold)

Independent in FL -

Obama seems to think it'll all be over when he 'wins' - that the hard part's finished and he can just coast.

He is SO wrong.

The Presidency is arguably the most responsible, most stress-filled job in the world. It's 24-7 TOTAL responsibility for 4 to 8 years.

My feeling is Obama looks on it as a reward. He will be KING - and nobody better question what the King wants!

I think McCain looks on it as a really nasty, terribly important job that HAS to be done - it'll be much more comfortable than his time as a POW but much MUCH worse in stress, responsibility and possible consequences if he screws it up.

Going into the Presidency and looking at it as something you 'deserve' is entirely the wrong attitude.

Obama doesn't really seem to care what the job entails - McCain respects it and knows it'll likely kill him, but it's gotta be done - and he's going for it anyway.

I think the press is giving... (Below threshold)

I think the press is giving this guy airtime for the chance he might look like an idiot. Plumber??? I can see the Ivy elite chuckling to themselves. If the press can't figure it out on their own, they'll make another call to Obama headquarters and ask them how they want this apostate "handled". I think this guy is pretty brave. He's got guts to air is views like this. A true American in my book.

See my update to this post.... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

See my update to this post. The libs don't get it! This is not about Joe the Plumber. It is about Obama's response to his question. Obama said spread the wealth, not Joe the Plumber. The thugocracy is already out for Joe, but he is not the issue. Obama's words are and they finally revealed his true nature and the philosophy that rules his economic plan.

It makes the point that he ... (Below threshold)

It makes the point that he is not undecided. If the McCain campaign tries to sell Joe the Plumber as Every Man Undecided they are being deceitful. But that's nothing new from this campaign.

Adrian's point is that anyb... (Below threshold)

Adrian's point is that anybody who would ever donate $10.00 to a Rethuglican candidate has already proven his opinion is worthless and should be scorned. He probably goes to CHURCH, owns GUNS, is against unrestricted ABORTION and is probably even a latent HETEROSEXUAL. *GASP!*

This is the reason Obambi w... (Below threshold)

This is the reason Obambi would NEVER do town halls with McCain. After all, people at Obambi's events would never insult Obambi with a question like Joe the plumber asked. Obambi's true underlying beliefs come out when he is off prompter. And now "plugs" Biden is attacking Joe the Plumber. The $3000 dollar "bonus" for new employees is a joke. If you have an employee making $40,000 it costs the owner an additional $20,000 on top of the salary.
I hope Joe the plumber is ready for what the press will try to do to him for asking the "One" a question. After all he was a plant by McCain's campaign.

If Joe succeeds and achieve... (Below threshold)

If Joe succeeds and achieves 'The American Dream', the reason won't be due to him working 12 hours / day, 7 days / week. Nope. The reason is that he was just more 'fortunate' (i.e. lucky) than lazy Larry that put in his 40 hours and enjoy his weekends. Therefore, if it was just a matter of luck, what's wrong with us taking a little of what Joe's got and giving it to Larry so they can both have nice stuff... for the greater good and all.


"It makes the point that... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

"It makes the point that he is not undecided. If the McCain campaign tries to sell Joe the Plumber as Every Man Undecided they are being deceitful. But that's nothing new from this campaign."

That is not the point. That he is undecided or not? How is that a point? The point is the "spread the wealth" comment and what it says about what Obama wants to do with people like Joe the Plumber's money. Obama doesn't care if Joe is Dem or Republican, gay or straight, decided or undecided. He is going to take their money and spread it around regardless. The Obama thugs will try to make Joe's political affiliation, his parking tickets, his sex life, his athelete's foot, whatever, an issue, but they are not. What is the issue is that Obama finally admitted his desire to take money from people like Joe and spread it around.

Who the hell ever made the ... (Below threshold)

Who the hell ever made the point that he was undecided? The point is, and always was that Obama said he was for the redistribution of wealth. I don't care if Joe is really Karl Rove in disguise. Obama said what he said. It's on tape.

"Who the hell ever made ... (Below threshold)

"Who the hell ever made the point that he was undecided? The point is, and always was that Obama said he was for the redistribution of wealth. I don't care if Joe is really Karl Rove in disguise. Obama said what he said. It's on tape"

Good point Tim

And if I were McCain I'd show it over, and over, and over, and over again until Americans can recite the lines from memory.

The Amazing thing about all... (Below threshold)

The Amazing thing about all of this is its Income Tax. The founding fathers did not want a tax on Income. As American we were to keep what we earned and taxes for were on goods and services we consumed.
The Constitution was modified and it legal but in no way is income tax fair or symbol of original American values. If anything it has enabled un restrained government growth and avarice as they look on people labor as way to buy other peoples growth.
I want to be fair so let's tax everyone at 15% except Politian who are always taxed at 50% base rate and mandatory donations of 25% to charity. Every % in tax increase affects them x2. Ever %s increase in spending on everything not mentioned in the US Constitution as responsibility of the federal government means there campaign war chest is taxed at that rate x 4. If Social Security is not funded they forfeit all health and retirement pay.

The "Joe the plumber" thing... (Below threshold)
krkrjak Author Profile Page:

The "Joe the plumber" thing is getting much more attention than the Obama camp could have ever imagined.I recall an old WW-2 slogan that "loose lips sink ships", and I think on this one Obama let his lip get loose. That comment may turn out to be the most damning damage he's done to his campaign to date. That can bode well for McCain, and he can get a lot of mileage out of it IF he will continue to keep it in the public's consciousness. The Obama spin machine seem to be tripping over themselves trying to repair the damage. What might they come up with next? That wasn't the real B.O, but a B.O. look alike plant by the Republicans.

If 97% of American househol... (Below threshold)

If 97% of American households bring in less than $250,000/year, then Joe the Plumber isn't Joe Sixpack.

Obama's tax plan doesn't suggest taxing people who earn $250k/yr @ 50%. To suggest that it does is lying. The 50% bracket would be pro athlete/trial lawyer/hedge fund executive territory. Those people have good accountants.

I'm going to repost my chal... (Below threshold)

I'm going to repost my challenge, and I'm willing to bet no one that's supporting Obama takes it.

Ya know, any police officer has to get zapped by a taser so that they know the effects that they are going to inflict.

I have a challenge for those that want to vote for Obama, since you must think it's a good idea to "redistribute the wealth.", then get done to you what you want done to others. Take 39% of what you have and give it to someone that is less fortunate. If you have 3 TVs give one to someone that doesn't, if you have 2 game systems, give 1 to someone that doesn't. Share the prosperity! Pretend that Obama has just signed into law that you MUST spread the money around, you have no choice, if you don't have enough to give and live on you must change your lifestyle to be able to pay the "TAX".

That's my challenge for those that think the rich are evil and aren't doing their part. It's the Golden Rule Libs, lets see you live by it.

"Obama's tax plan doesn'... (Below threshold)

"Obama's tax plan doesn't suggest taxing people who earn $250k/yr @ 50%. To suggest that it does is lying."

No one said that. No one even implied that. No one "lied".

Am I missing something that... (Below threshold)

Am I missing something that this Adrian character and the other flunky stated about this man regarding the donation list?

The comment that a man with a trade (#3) donated to a campaign? You are wrong retard. If you look at the status of the donations, there are more from a RETIRED person than from one that says TRADE or PLUMBER.

And what does it matter that the people donating happen to have an "R" to their party?

Your false prophet seemed to get a whole bunch of cash from the world audience. But that doesn't matter to you, you're simply mindless drones for The One.

You know, all the attention... (Below threshold)

You know, all the attention placed on the election is diverting it away from the scrutiny that Hank Paulsen and his cronies should receive as they "bail out," our banks. They've been given carte blanche with $700 billion taxpayer dollars. I want to see some accountability instead of a blank check.

"Slippery slope", indeed. ... (Below threshold)

"Slippery slope", indeed. That is an excellent way to describe Obama.

If the McCain campaign tries to sell Joe the Plumber as Every Man Undecided they are being deceitful.

Joe is not every man. He is one of many that want to work hard and profit in a land of opportunity. You use the word deceitful carelessly, right after the greed on wall street and all the crooks involved.

Umm...actually in almost ev... (Below threshold)

Umm...actually in almost every single tax system in the world the rich get taxed more. This whole debate is a pure distraction.

Are you people so out of to... (Below threshold)
small business owner/mom/wife:

Are you people so out of touch? Redistribution of wealth? Take from the rich, give to the poor? Are you kidding me? Are you living under a rock?

Are you aware of the billions of dollars we have spent on Iraq? Are you aware of the mega budget deficits? Have you seen that sign in midtown Manhattan lately about our national debt and how your family share has gone from about 60,000 8 years ago to about 86,000 now?

You think giving to the poor is expensive? Try invading a country unilaterally for weapons of mass destruction they don't have and then rebuilding them with money you have to borrow from China! All this while giving tax breaks to the wealthy! War mongering is way more expensive than welfare moms and children on subsidized lunches.

If you're voting for McCain and you voted for Shrub before him you better be digging into your pockets just to pay for this god***n war! Or wait, paying taxes isn't patriotic, but borrowing from the Chinese is! You all better be learning Mandarin!

Methinks you have all bought into the neo con propaganda and are barking up the wrong tree!! But that's okay, the neo cons like you right where they have you.

"If 97% of American househo... (Below threshold)

"If 97% of American households bring in less than $250,000/year, then Joe the Plumber isn't Joe Sixpack."

Hyper, pay attention. He wants to buy a company that makes that much. At present, he doesn't make nearly that much as he says in the video. He wants to own a company that makes a profit, and feels it's unfair for him to be taxed even more after he does so.

Chip, first off, a great ma... (Below threshold)

Chip, first off, a great many wealthy people DO donate to charity in order to claim larger deductions (layman's terms, they actually make more money by donating more money), so, this is kind of something that's done already.

Second, I'm an Obama supporter and I regularly donate both my time and belongings to the community (mentoring parolees and giving food, clothes, and yes I've given a few TVs to the homeless as well).

Third, to suggest that "other people" would never do such a thing only means that YOU would never do such a thing. Not that "Obama supporters" wouldn't. Which explains why you want to vote for McCain, and I want to vote for Obama. I feel like it's a good thing, when I have wealth, to help my community. While you feel like it's a good thing, when you have wealth, to hoard that wealth for yourself and your family.

I'm an Obama supporter ... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

I'm an Obama supporter and I regularly donate both my time and belongings to the community (mentoring parolees and giving food, clothes, and yes I've given a few TVs to the homeless as well).

I assume you are saying you donated a few tvs to a homeless shelter, but it sounded odd saying you gave tvs to the homeless.

Hyper, why are you here? Do... (Below threshold)

Hyper, why are you here? Don't you have conservatives in power in your country that you should nag? Starting to see things that aren't there, huh? ww

"Obama's tax plan doesn'... (Below threshold)

"Obama's tax plan doesn't suggest taxing people who earn $250k/yr @ 50%. To suggest that it does is lying. The 50% bracket would be pro athlete/trial lawyer/hedge fund executive territory. Those people have good accountants"

You're SOOO right hyper.

These evil bastards are the reason the poor and downtrodden remain so. Being "held down" by the rich just gets so tiring. Heck, makes people give up. Of course removing incentive for a better life is of no consequence. Anyone desiring a better life through risk, reward, and hardwork is SHAMEFUL. Anyone with such aspirations should be ashamed of themselves.

I'm sure you and Barrack will tell us when we can make more money and how much we can improve our lives. Thanks.

btw, on the topic of lying, seems like your messiah did a little truth-stretching himself last night wrt abortion and his votes on the 42% tax vote.

Mar, First I did N... (Below threshold)


First I did NOT say that wealthy people DON'T donate. I happen to work for someone that makes over $250,000 per year and I DO know they donate to many charities.

Second I DID NOT suggest "other people" don't donate. "Donating" is not the same as a "tax". Taxing is forced, you don't have a choice. I'm simply saying that for Obama supporters that think it's a great idea to redistribute the wealth, whay wait for a tax? Go ahead and do it now.

As for you insinuating that I don't donate, although I don't have to explain myself to you, I've given computers to people that couldn't afford them, I've donated money and time as well.

You people on the left love to use the "chickenhawk" label a lot. Well come on Robin Hoods lets see you practice what YOU preach.

Okay, so people who critici... (Below threshold)

Okay, so people who criticize or question McCain and Palin don't matter if they're not registered. That'll be a good question to ask.

"hyper, why are you here?"<... (Below threshold)

"hyper, why are you here?"

Remember, Willie? He just wants to "pick a fight".

"I feel like it's a good... (Below threshold)

"I feel like it's a good thing, when I have wealth, to help my community."

And so do most people. However, paying taxes is NOT charity. Charity comes from willingly giving, without coercion and without regard to one's own future benefit. It doesn't surprise me that you might confuse the two. Many do.

Joe does not make 250 now h... (Below threshold)

Joe does not make 250 now he would however like to someday make that does not see why he should be penalized for success.

If the government spends less money, then they need to collect fewer taxes. Neo-Cons were the folks that thought big government was good thing. Bush and the last Republican congress have pissed most of the traditional conservatives off. Bush also pushed the Ownership Society which would be good if the people own the stuff owned it with their own Money.

The Bush tax cuts brought in more revenue to the government but they spent is like Politian's. (Having been a sailor I spent my own money on liberty drunk or sober not other people.) Now you could say I was paid with tax payer money , true but the constitution supports the funding of the military it does not provide for HUD, DOE or other agency at the federal level.
Bush should have not created new super Bureaucracies like DOH or unfunded mandates ( Prescription drugs )or signed McCain Feingold. While we had power we should have exercised unabashedly line item veto and abolishment of FM/FM . They will call us racist anyway (or me an Uncle Tom . or Oreo) so let us do the right thing by the country.

Finally it is not about the poor it is about power and votes. A chicken in every pot is n now "FREE" Healthcare, FREE Housing, FREE.
FREE = Vote for me, FREE= steal other people's money to buy votes

Not to mention the more you rob from one class the more likely they will want to become involved in the process to protect what they have.

The poor will stay poor and more people will become poor because the increase the chance they will vote for those people.
The super wealthy also want to keep their resources so they become part of the problems and limits other peoples success.

I do not want to be slave to other, I do not want my family to do without so someone else can be better off, nor made to feel ashamed of my success.
As for every other country does, who cares this is USA not blah

Mar:(lay... (Below threshold)


(layman's terms, they actually make more money by donating more money)

I'll tell you what... for every $1.00 you give me, I'll give you $0.40 back. I'll make this exchange as many times as you want... until you're rich!!

Mar:Second, I'm a... (Below threshold)

Second, I'm an Obama supporter [snip]

I concluded that from the above excerpt...

What Joe the Plumber said a... (Below threshold)

What Joe the Plumber said and who he is doesn't matter at all. He could be McCain's nephew in disguise for all that it matters. All that matters is what Obama said in an unguarded moment. It doesn't matter what dirt they find on Joe, none of that matters because Obama said what he said and he meant what he said. That's important to remember. Even if Joe is a complete fake, Obama FREELY shared his innermost Marx for the whole nation to see. That's all that matters.

I second Chip's motion abou... (Below threshold)

I second Chip's motion about all those that support old 1/2 breed whosane's share the wealth deal. If you need my address, just ask or I will even drop by and pick your "gift".

I'll add this....T... (Below threshold)

I'll add this....

The difference between charity (i.e. private charity) and government 'charity' is the difference between gift and theft. Allow me to explain....

If you and I are walking down the street and see someone asking for money, it's (morally) fine for me to reach into my pocket and give the man some of my money.

If you and I are walking down the street and see someone asking for money, it's not (morally) fine for me to point a gun at you, demand that you give me your money so that I can give it to the man.

The first scenario is what charity is. It's key component is that it's completely voluntary. The second scenario is, in essence, what government 'charity' involves. It's key component is the use of coercion. Taking, by coercion, from one person in order to give it to another is WRONG. It doesn't matter if person from which you're taking "can afford it" or not.. nor does it matter whether the person to which you give it "needs it" or not.

small business owner/mom/wi... (Below threshold)

small business owner/mom/wife -

Puzzle me this "small business owner/mom/wife," obama and his minions (minions meaning Bush critics of the last seven years) have consistently said "never in the history of America has the president fought a war AND cut taxes."

obama has and continues to say he will chase down bin laden and continue the fight in Afghanistan.

How is he going to fight that war while cutting taxes for "95% of Americans?"

Oh, and BTW "small business owner/mom/wife" speaking of rocks as living quarters, you may want to check the roof over your head. Granite and limestone hurt a bunch when knocked lose in earthquakes.

Yeah, how dare those libera... (Below threshold)

Yeah, how dare those liberal bloggers point out that he's a McCain plant!

Re: "The difference between... (Below threshold)

Re: "The difference between charity (i.e. private charity) and government 'charity' is the difference between gift and theft. Allow me to explain..."

It seems some of our oldest colonial stock disagreed with you. We have near where I live in central Massachusetts, a colonial home that had been occupied in the early Pilgrim days, in the mid 1600s.

When you take a tour of it, they show you the leather buckets that the Pilgrims used when there were house fires. Each bucket had a number on it, and it was left behind at the fire site by the owner of the bucked to prove that he had been there helping to fight the fire.

It was returned by an assigned person after it had been checked off the list, showing that the owner had been at the fire. If the bucket was not checked off the list, the person owning the bucked would be penalized - I'm not sure what, but it could have been some hours in the stocks.

The point that was made by the folks who took us around that house was that the founding fathers did not believe in pure voluntary efforts. They had voted to penalize themselves if they did not show up to fight the fires. They must have known that a purely voluntary effort - in which each person would come when there was a fire without any penalty if they did not come -- would not have been as successful as the requirement that they fight the fires or be penalized. This law was not imposed by the king. It was approved democratically, in open town meeting.

Another example is the 16th amendment to the US Constitution, which enables the income tax. This is unusual in being one of the few cases where the WE the people passed an amendment over a ruling of the US Supreme Court. Some years before the amendment was passed, the Court ruled that the income tax was unconstitutional. And so, with remarkable willingness to be taxed, the US went through the difficult task of passing an amendment to the Constitution - two thirds of each house of congress and three quarters of the states.

In both the Puritan and the tax example, Americans decided that that there was a need for both compulsion and the importance of making the decision democratically. They did not consider that they were enabling a criminal to take their money in taxes or force them to fight fires.

Why is being taxed assumed ... (Below threshold)

Why is being taxed assumed to be a punishment? Don't we want to help our fellow americans? Isn't the opportunity to give, a good thing? What is wrong with helping others? Greed will be the demise of this country.

Poor Joe is gonna end up in... (Below threshold)

Poor Joe is gonna end up in the Gulags with the rest of us after Obama is sworn in.... I just hope I am lucky enough to be in the same gulag as him so I can have just a bit of his wisdom in these last days.

smrstrauss,The Pilgr... (Below threshold)

The Pilgrims and the Founding Fathers were different groups. You are also mixing different centuries.
And finally, the Puritans are probably the last people modern Americans would want to live under. Ask the people that fled to Rhode Island...

Glad you feel that way '4o'... (Below threshold)

Glad you feel that way '4o'. Just send me a check each week as I need "help". (Need my address?)

In response to Biden's insi... (Below threshold)
just me:

In response to Biden's insistence that plumbers don't make $250,000 a year in his neighborhood.

There was a family in my town-I was friends with the daughter that had a family owned plumbing business. The family made far more than the 250k threshold and because they weren't big spending-gotta keep up with the joneses types, the family had millions in investments and property. They employed probably 10-15 employees that weren't in the family-maybe as many as 20.

In my town the main plumber who is considered to be THE go to plumber probably makes about that. He owns a small business, and has maybe 10 employees. I do know he doesn't sit at home counting the dollars, but works his tail off still doing plumbing jobs.

Biden is an idiot.

Yeah, how dare tho... (Below threshold)
Yeah, how dare those liberal bloggers point out that he's a McCain plant!

What's that, you say? Obama scared the hell out of Joe with a "take away tax cuts for the common good" answer like the true socialist that he is? And then Joe explained it is socialistic on national television? You don't say?!

giving to the poor is good.... (Below threshold)

giving to the poor is good.obama never said he would give your money to the poor.he has already shown you he will spread it around to accorn and ayer's and all of his other socialist buddies.god help us if he wins.

"Greed will be the demis... (Below threshold)

"Greed will be the demise of this country."

Greed will bring about the demise of the greedy. Indiscriminate charity will bring everyone down.

Joe the Plumber has a lot i... (Below threshold)

Joe the Plumber has a lot in common with those pipes he cleans for a living; they're both full of the same thing.

What are you, five years ol... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

What are you, five years old? My eight year old has more sophisticated humor than that and she is just a souther yokel like her mom.

what person who makes 250,0... (Below threshold)

what person who makes 250,000 pays taxes on that amount?the more you make the more write offs you find.

i love all these idiots tha... (Below threshold)

i love all these idiots that slag so-called "socialsm", a concept which they clearly do not understand... but meanwhile it is perfectly acceptable when its in the form of bailouts for corporations and their morally bankrupt chairmen, or the FDIC insuring their deposits, or when they retire and expect a social security check, or maybe they think it's their right to a decent education at a public school, or perhaps when a natural disaster occurs in their community and they want federal funds to rebuild the infrastructure of their communities, etc. etc. etc. and if you don't want other "lefty" concepts such as a minimum wage, clean water in your homes, or the 40 hour work week, i suggest that perhaps you should go build a giant bridge to nowhere and jump off of it.

This blog is very troubleso... (Below threshold)

This blog is very troublesome to read that there are actually Americans that would have a problem with having their taxes raised from 36% to 39% you have to be kidding me 3% is what all of you guys are complaining about! The fact that Senator Obama
stated that he would like to spread the wealth is such a major concern did anyone stop to think about how many poor kids would be able to go to a decent school or maybe college, would have a nice meal on the table, a coat on their back and boots on their feet how many people would be helped by this plan. Alot of Americans are sending hefty donations overseas when are kids right next door are living with no heat, and yet we cry about a 3% tax increase.Some of you act as if Barack Obama said "Your taxes will go to my lavish vacations for me and my family". Obama is trying to invest in the middle class and in the low-income families so that we can stop working two jobs and use the other 8 hours to go to school, so that we can put our children through school and in return help those that are less fortunate when it is our chance to make $250,000 per year.

Please stop talking like th... (Below threshold)

Please stop talking like this 36% to 39% over $250K is some big deal. 3% is small potatoes--especially the richer you get. The richer you get, the more loopholes and tax shelters there are.

"This blog is very troubles... (Below threshold)

"This blog is very troublesome to read that there are actually Americans that would have a problem with having their taxes raised from 36% to 39% you have to be kidding me 3% is what all of you guys are complaining about!"

What is it, sock-puppet night? Sara, you obviously don't understand the real problem, which is not ultimately socialism. You too, have been hosed by your own candidate.

Chip, Are you kidd... (Below threshold)
Jaymeey Hatfield:


Are you kidding, I am a small business owner. I do not have a t.v. to give to charity, much less 3 of them. I watch the debates from friends. I spend all of my time, spare money and energy to help the less fortunate. You sound like a jerk who I bet has never donated, volunteered or helped anyone outside of your family.

I can't believe the things ... (Below threshold)

I can't believe the things that people have written here. So much venom and spite. Are there really that many people in this country who believe that we shouldn't have to pay taxes? Do you honestly believe that when you get rich, you don't owe anything to anyone? Even though your wealth is based on the work of others?

And what about the people in the financial services sector--these people make millions without actually CREATING anything. Do we actually think it's all right for those people not to have to pay taxes, even though they are making millions without contributing a single positive thing? They haven't put out a fire, taught a child, provided medical services, picked up trash, served coffee, manufactured a car, built a house--nothing. We want these people to make these obscene amounts of money, but have to pay as little as possible to the country that made it possible for them to make that money?

What has happened to our sense of mutual responsibility to each other? Why have we lost our ability to empathize with others? If you don't believe in paying taxes, then what should be done when people lose their jobs and need unemployment insurance--should they not get government help? Especially since the government (through its lax regulation) is the reason that people are losing their jobs?

And what about disabled people: do we think that, because we have this horrific budget deficit brought on by Bush's War, and we can't fund everything anymore, then we should cut funding for training for the disabled? What about money for autistic children--should that be cut since we don't have the money to pay for it? Or should we cut something else since this is something Gov. Palin relates to?

I am horrified by what I have read on this site. What kind of country have we become? Where is our love for our fellow human beings? Where is the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes? I bet that the investors whose money has been wiped out by the stock market are starting to understand how terrifying it is to be on the brink of losing everything.

To jay' hay'-how about mowi... (Below threshold)

To jay' hay'-how about mowing my yard for me.

I bet that the inv... (Below threshold)
I bet that the investors whose money has been wiped out by the stock market are starting to understand how terrifying it is to be on the brink of losing everything.

Mail that concern to a month ago, and address the envelope to fannie and freddie. You've been hosed, I tells ya. Oh, and peace, love, and joy to my fellow humans beings. Especially the ones who can get past the false outrage long enough to google the names "Obama, Ayers, Farakhan, Odinga," as well as the key words "Cloward-Piven Crisis Strategy". You have a nice evening.

A young woman was about to ... (Below threshold)

A young woman was about to finish her first year of college. Like so many others her age,
she considered herself to be a very liberal Democrat, and among other liberal ideals,
was very much in favor of higher taxes to support more government programs,
in other words, redistribution of wealth.

She was deeply ashamed that her father was a rather staunch Republican, a feeling she
openly expressed. Based on the lectures that she had participated in, and the occasional
chat with a professor, she felt that her father had for years harbored an evil, selfish desire
to keep what he thought should be his.

One day she was challenging her father on his opposition to higher taxes on the rich and
the need for more government programs. The self-professed objectivity proclaimed by her
professors had to be the truth and she indicated so to her father.
He responded by asking how she was doing in school.

Taken aback, she answered rather haughtily that she had a 4.0 GPA, and let him know
that it was tough to maintain, insisting that she was taking a very difficult course load
and was constantly studying, which left her no time to go out and party like other people
he didn't even have time for a boyfriend, and didn't really have many college friends
because she spent all her time studying.

Her father listened and then asked, 'How is your friend Audrey doing?'
She replied, 'Audrey is barely getting by. All she takes are easy classes, she never
studies, and she barely has a 2.0 GPA. She is so popular on campus; college for her
is a blast. She's always invited to all the parties and lots of times she doesn't even
show up for classes because she's too hung over.'

Her wise father asked his daughter, 'Why don't you go to the Dean's office and ask him
to deduct 1.0 off your GPA and give it to your friend who only has a 2.0. That way you
will both have a 3.0 GPA and certainly that would be a fair and equal distribution of GPA.'

The daughter, visibly shocked by her father's suggestion, angrily fired back,
'That's a crazy idea, how would that be fair! I've worked really hard for my grades!
I've invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work! Audrey has done next to nothing
toward her degree. She played while I worked my tail off!'

The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, 'Welcome to the Republican party.'

Well said #71. It seems mos... (Below threshold)

Well said #71. It seems most of the rest of these posters fell for the specious "plumber" arugument and the "ismitis" that it implied. It was no more than another distraction by the current Rep.campaign to hide the intention that has been afoot since Regan. This "new" argument is cover for McSame's tax plan that is the real robbing from people their personal welfare and giving it to "good ol' boy" persons/corporations whose avarice is unbounded. That's the point! Obama is not asking all American persons to give away, unduly, their hard earned cash or their worthy rugged individualism. He is, as I see it, saying that those Corporate, previously special "persons",should be taken off the welfare dole and be expected to pay their fair share, seeing as that money does not trickle down. That is McSame's Pogrom. We know it and their is a growing body count to prove it. Do not pride yourselves that you have found any leverage by casting about and infecting your neighbor with some notion of Communism or the much maligned noble idea of Socialism, which is in fact a balanced element of a truly cultured people and its governing process. You merely obscure your neighbors mental clarity and muddy the prospects of his/her personal welfare and prosperity and shoot yourself in the foot to boot. Wake up! Don't be suckers--again!

Is the guy a plant though? ... (Below threshold)
matt mccabe:

Is the guy a plant though? Doesn't have his licenses, owes money, but he's buying the company? Seems a little manufactured.

I live in a socialist count... (Below threshold)

I live in a socialist country working cuz I can't get a job in my own country.I know what socialism looks like first hand. I have been concerned about Obama's socialist leanings for months now. I'm surprised you all are just beginning to talk about it 19 days before the election. And of course CNN doesn't mention that comment! The media in the US has become as censored as here-a self-censorship of liberalism. If Obama wins this election, I won't come home go home again. Better the devil you know, than the devil you don't know

I heard Obama say he will g... (Below threshold)

I heard Obama say he will give Joe the unlicensed Plumber, who makes under $250,000, a lower tax so he can buy that business faster. His tax plan gives Joe a break. That is spreading the wealth and making it eaiser for Joe to earn his dream.

WOW !!!! What a bunch of Fu... (Below threshold)

WOW !!!! What a bunch of Fu.king Ignorant air heads that have posted to this sight.

It is a Very Well known FACT that REPUBLICANS give anyone making over $ 250,000 NET a year more tax BREAKS than people who make considerably less AND the more your NET income increases (500,000, 1,000,000 and so on) the BIGGER the tax BREAK under the REPUBLICAN Tax Plans.

So, thats why the RICH get RICHER and "Middle Class" and under get "POORER". It's a fact, it always has been that way with Republicans.
Republicans for the last 8 years, under the Bush Administration (McCain included) have been approving even MORE TAX CREDITS for the WEALTHY and the separation between the "RICH" and the rest of us is at it's greatest difference NOW than at any other time in history.

Obama wants to increase (by 3%) the taxes these RICH people (Corporations included) DO NOT PAY NOW because of those REPUBLICAN TAX CREDITS. He wants to have them pay more of what they should be paying (although 3% is still way less than their share) instead of RASING ANYONES TAXES making $250,000 or less !!
Get real people that is what he is talking about when he says "Spread the Wealth" instead of the RICH getting RICHER (by paying less than the rest of us with all those Republican tax credits). It is VERY BASIC MATH, this tax credit stuff for the wealthy is "Of Record" this is factual..LOOK IT UP !!! EDUCATE YOURSELF.

But, if you just want to continue paying the "Biggest" share of the TAXES and you just "CAN'T" get pass your real issue of voting for a "Black" person then Hey, vote for McCain/Palin, you prejudice Dim Whits !!!

For the record: I am a 57 year old white male and I am a registered Republican and have been for 23 yrs, but, I will be making an informed vote this year on Nov 4th, and it surely won't be for McCain....PERIOD !!!

"What a bunch of Fu.king... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

"What a bunch of Fu.king Ignorant air heads that have posted to this sight."

Yet not too ignorant to know how to spell "site."

"I heard Obama say he wi... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

"I heard Obama say he will give Joe the unlicensed Plumber, who makes under $250,000, a lower tax so he can buy that business faster. His tax plan gives Joe a break. That is spreading the wealth and making it eaiser for Joe to earn his dream."

That is the point -- after a person achieves success he punishes it. That is why Joe asked why he wanted to tax him higher for achieving the American dream. Especially at a time of economic downturn, you just don't raise taxes. Unless your name is Hoover.

Try "Sight" as it's written... (Below threshold)

Try "Sight" as it's written BOZO, sight as in able to see what has been written...it's a "Pun" airhead !!

Also, why your add it, look the facts up on McCain, no lie, Gods thruth, this senator has voted "23" times in his career against "Legislation" that are FOR EQUAL PAY FOR WOMEN. Now tell me again why you would vote for this guy?? You seriously need to EDUCATE yourself, don't take my word or ANYBODY elses, check for your self, its public record. There is even more like when McCain sat down for an interview 8 months ago with the Chairman of "Battered Wives" and when he was asked "How are you Senator McCain?" He answered "A lot better today since I stopped beating my wife two weeks ago" That is a quote of McCain during that interview, I didn't make it up, that is what he said. Later, he was asked why he said that and he said "I was trying to be funny" Big joke to him I guess. Again, why are you voting McCain??

"Try "Sight" as it's wri... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

"Try "Sight" as it's written BOZO, sight as in able to see what has been written...it's a "Pun" airhead !!

Also, why your add it, look the facts up on McCain, no lie, Gods thruth, this senator has voted "23" times in his career against "Legislation" that are FOR EQUAL PAY FOR WOMEN."

Sorry, but I really must be an airhead because I still don't get the pun. "What a bunch of Fu.king Ignorant air heads that have posted to this sight." Okay. Maybe that pun makes sense to everyone but me. I guess "while your add it" is a pun too, but that one would only make sense if you were talking about numbers. And Dude, what is with all the words being CAPITALIZED? That generally indicates SCREAMING. Calm down. Maybe you just misspelled "you're" and "truth" because you are so worked up, but when you write stuff like that and then tell other people they are airheads who need to educate themselves, it doesn't carry quite the same punch and distracts from what you are saying. Maybe that is why I still don't get the pun. Or maybe it is just because it is way past bedtime. Night all. Tomorrow if the polls continue to tighten we will probably get even more capitalization. Better rest up for it.

He probably goes to CHURCH,... (Below threshold)

He probably goes to CHURCH, owns GUNS, is against unrestricted ABORTION and is probably even a latent HETEROSEXUAL. *GASP!*


Got something you need to talk about, Ted?

This place is a JOKE.... (Below threshold)

This place is a JOKE.

You only EXIST because someone's trying to make money off this concept called Wizbang.

You have your doppelgangers over in Wizbang Blue--isn't that nice and even? EVERYBODY has a chance to make money. Because it's not about patriotism or politics or even web social life. It's just a web engine to generate money. Wizbang doesn't care red, doesn't care blue, doesn't care period.

And maybe while McCain was riding high, you got a lot of hits.

Now McCain's tanking, and not enough people hate Obama, so you're all talking to yourselves, waiting for eyeballs to come by!

The problem with socialism ... (Below threshold)
Giving Girl:

The problem with socialism is that, in people's minds, it turns over our responsibility to help others to the government. Before food stamps and free lunches, people were much more likely to offer to help their neighbor and actually follow through on our God-given desire to offer assistance to people in need. My husband and I still seek to follow the command of Jesus to love our neighbor and give when we see a need. In the past 5 years we have twice been able to give some of our tithe/offering money to help families about to lose their homes (once for $8,000 and once for $5,000). Someone once helped my parents in the same way and it has been a joy to be able to do the same for others. I also had the privelege to overhear a woman giving a police report that someone had stolen $220 from her purse at a local department store and follow through with a prompting from the Lord to go withdraw that money from an ATM and replace it - with the encouragement that the Lord loved her very much. You see, it is more blessed to give than receive (Jesus said that). It brought me great joy to fulfill a "good work" God prepared in advance for me (Ephesians 2:10). But, when we think the government should take care of things like that, we turn people (both givers and receivers) away from the true source of our help and sustenance. I share all this anonymously since we are not to give and brag about it - but I hope this example might encourage others to offer help when they see a need. We aren't in the highest tax bracket, but an awful lot of the money we make, and could use to help others, is going to Uncle Sam instead. We still tithe on our Gross income though and it always amazes our Tax Preparer - which tells me that most folks aren't so free in their giving. But, we have found that what we sow in giving is always more than given back to us. Read 2 Corinthians 9 if you think you don't have enough money to give any away. You see, the issue of greed and bankrupt morals, which unfortunately is not limited to wealthy corporate big-whigs, causes all of us problems. But, that is a topic for another day.

Dear Brothers and Sisters:<... (Below threshold)

Dear Brothers and Sisters:

On January 9, 2008, the United Association became the first International Union to endorse Senator Barack Obama as its candidate for the Democratic nomination for President of the United States. This endorsement was discussed with the General Executive Board and they concurred.

William Hite

Only the uninformed describ... (Below threshold)

Only the uninformed describe Obama as a socialist. If any of you idiots ever look up the words 'socialism' and 'socialist' you'll see that Obama's ideas and desired direction for this country are nowhere NEAR socialist. People who know the meaning of the word, 'dems and repubs', don't use it to describe Obama. However, it's the rallying call for the 'conservatives'. They know their voter base. And they know you'll just assimilate it and regurgitate it to anyone who'll listen. You won't bother to look up the defition. Just as they did with the word 'elitist'. You throw those words out like you've said something smart. Well, you haven't. And you want to know the hell of it? The very people who have you spreading this message are laughing at you. They count on your blind allegiance, your fear.
Wanna know what's socialist? That got***n bailout is the definition socialism. But you wouldn't know that.

Taxing the rich more to giv... (Below threshold)

Taxing the rich more to give to the poor only accomplishes this...
The rich will 'cocoon', hide their wealth and spend less while the poor will get another handout and another reason to not attempt their own financial success.
Much like "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire".
The only way to have a prosperous country is to encourage everyone to "work hard, get a good education and do it on your own".
The government is not here to provide for all... only to provide opportunity for all.

i paid last year 15k on tax... (Below threshold)

i paid last year 15k on taxes and part of my taxes are so your kids can go to school, yet i don't have children, why should i pay for your kids to go to school ? i pay taxes so those less priviledge than get an education, so joe, give me a break...if you make over 250k you can pay a little extra to give those a little less priviledge a tax break...yes, spreading the wealth around, that is what i do when i pay taxes so YOUR kids can go to school

Joe the Plumber talks to Jo... (Below threshold)

Joe the Plumber talks to Joe With-the-Seven Houses...US Americans, wake up! The GOP has dug a big lonely hole around you guys, and here you are handing them the hoe and the shovel? Common! Gottcha-betcha Sarah is talking frivolous about burning books and washed-up terrorists...while fashion-coordinating her 600-dollar eyeglasses. I am from Middle Mongolia. What does GOP really means? Grand Old Puke?

Dear Britt,We did kn... (Below threshold)
Dictionary Girl:

Dear Britt,
We did know the bailout was socialism and it, too, is a travesty. However, you obviously didn't read far enough along in your dictionary to see that Obama's plan fits the transitional stage between capitalism and communism.
Merriam Webster Dictionary so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1837
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

Obama/Biden are preaching s... (Below threshold)

Obama/Biden are preaching socialism, pure and simple. It is 100% contrary to the views of our founding fathers. Thomas Jefferson: "To take from one because he has acquired too much by his own industry, and then give it to another who has not exercised equal industry is to arbitrarily violate the guarantee to every one of the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it." But Obama/Biden are worse only by a matter of degree. The GOP and the Democrats are addicted to spending your money. And get this - 75% of federal government programs are not mentioned (not even hinted at) in the US constitution. Time to start over - re-elect no one.

Marc, who's talking about A... (Below threshold)
small business owner/mom/wife:

Marc, who's talking about Afghanistan? That wasn't unilateral. We went in with the support of our allies and then left Afg to go into Iraq, which lost us our support and caused us to become a weird and giant Rambo/John Wayne caricature to the tune of billions of dollars (which we've had to borrow from the Chinese among others b/c god forbid our citizens pay for it) and thousands of lives on both sides.

At its most basic, all politicians promise things they can't deliver to win elections. If we all, dems, repubs, libs, cons, and everything in between, don't know this then we're just naive.

I think we've all gotten so far from this notion of personal responsibility (on both sides) that sometimes I think we don't deserve freedom (they do go hand in hand). Many people with money think they're as entitled as what people say about welfare moms. They can waste as much as they want, they don't have to clean up after themselves, natural resources are there for them to use and use lots of. It's why we have the biggest ecological footprint of all developed nations. We're fighting a war in Iraq but you wouldn't know it because nobody's had to feel it on a daily basis like people did during WWII. God forbid we ration gas and tighten the belt to pay for this war because then people couldn't drive their giant SUVs (they deserved and earned that right to waste gas gosh darn it) with "support the troops" bumper stickers.

If we stay in Afghanistan like we were supposed to and make nice with our allies, they might be willing again to go the extra mile (by the way, a BBC poll shows more international support for Obama). And remember, one war would still be cheaper than two!

At least Obama is addressing the need to raise taxes in some places whereas John McCain would be more than happy to leave Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy. And I don't believe it is 95% you refer to but more like 80% that would receive tax cuts.

What is it about our love affair with the wealthy? Is it shows like Life Styles of the Rich and Famous? Tabloid magazines about the hollywood elite and spoiled brats like Paris Hilton?

You think someone earning $250,000 would necessarily hire someone with the 3% difference in tax bracket? Why that money would go very nicely toward a vacation in Jamaica or somewhere else beyond these borders. But isn't that just the American way!

A lot of people have given far better arguments than me about the real definition of socialism, how the republicans have their base convinced (most of whom make under 250,000) that socialism is lurking around the corner, that the democrats are going to screw them, when the reality is that the republicans (and neo con infiltrators) mostly care about corporate interests to the detriment of their base. They have done an amazing job -- like sleight of hand in which they have used misdirection to make you focus on one thing while they are doing something else, and that something else is not in your best interest.

I just need to say that any... (Below threshold)
idon'tusuallydo this:

I just need to say that any "extra" taxes that Obama collects are not going to go to the poor and downtrodden - they are going to go to pay the benefit plans (healthcare and retirement, et.) for each new government employee that is hired to "help redistribute the wealth"-
Or maybe to fund the new "conscription" service of young adults who will have to join service organizations in order to qualify for student loans.

Yup, just some cut-and-past... (Below threshold)

Yup, just some cut-and-paste post. I'm beginning to think that's all this site is.

It is incredibly scary how ... (Below threshold)

It is incredibly scary how uneducated and dangerously Goebellian conservative fanatics are. Take this whole argument about Joe-the plumber. First, a rational mind would have sympathised with Joe for being so completely brainwashed by republican propaganda machine(which frankly preys on gullible, poorly educated white folks) that he is unable to recognize his own best interest.

He earns $40,000, owes taxes and probably other debts. As indicated by experts of virtually every stripe, he gets far more tax cuts under Obama than McCain. That relieves the current financial pressure on him and puts him in a better financial state to realize his dream. The increase in the purchasing power occasioned by that tax cut means more home owners can now afford to fix their homes, translating to more work for Joe, and potentially higher salary. The company he works for now makes (according to him) $250,000 which means - if this goes to only one person - no tax increase. Even if it makes $300,000, the additional tax is $1,500! How such an additional tax will affect a business's employment decision beats me; or why Joe should kill his ambition just because the country - at a time whem Republicans have saddled us with a $10 Trillion debt and a costly unneccessary war - asks those who can afford it to pay a little more beats me!

Now, let's look at the history of tax cuts. Reagan came into office with a simmilar mantra of tax cuts and he did cut taxes. Then, he realised his folly that you don't cut taxes while embarking on ambitious military expansion (or like now, senseless Iraq war and debilitating debt), and before the end of his two terms, he raised taxes SIX TIMES! Read my lips I wont raise taxes, said Bush 1. Then when he realised the mess already caused by Reagan's tax cut (before Reagan reversed himself), he abandoned his promise and raised taxes to combat a devastated economy. Clinton came, and realising that uncontrollable budget deficit is harmful to the economy, he raised taxes somemore and balanced the budget, ushering in a period of unprecedented business expansion, wealth creation and prosperity.

Those who are brainwashed by the insidious, hate-stoking, Republican proganda machine needs to read economic history and reject these liars and self-serving hate-mongers.

First of all, I don't like ... (Below threshold)

First of all, I don't like the language some of you use ... thugocracy ? Obambi ? B Hussein ? Before I start spreading hatred (and don't even try to say those words aren't targeted to do that), I'd rather be spreading some wealth or anything else. I don't think that this the political atmosphere our forefathers envisioned for our "land of the free". Republican or Democrat, Liberal or Conservative - no one gains from a country full of hatred, or like the founding fathers said : only UNITY ("E pluribus unum." Many united into one.) will guarentee THIS COUNTRY to be strong and successful ... And even John McCain conveyed that message in the last debate and throughout his political career, reaching out across party lines and ideological divisions to get things done in the Big Picture.
My second comment ties directly into this. What many of the previous commenters seem to be missing, is the point that Obama's "spreading the wealth" idea has nothing to do with "take from the rich, give to the poor". It is about "taking from everybody" (just better proportioned) and giving it back to EVERYBODY, to our country, to get out of the latest economic mess, to preserve our (everybody's !!!) livelihoods, to keep our homes and businesses, our luxuries ... Short-sighted egotism (as proven on Wall Street) will only get us deeper in trouble. If we don't finance efforts to educate our children better, improve our health care system, increase our environmental protection programs, and yes, if we don't bail out the financial sector NOW (as unjust as that may seem),
Joe The Plumber will have :
- a business that has no business (where is he going to install plumbing, if the current construction crisis continues ?)
- employees that are unskilled, sick and homeless (i.e. they won't generate enough profit for him to make 250 anymore)
- nothing to spend his wealth on, since America The Beautiful has turned into an ugly nightmare of polluted air, water and dirt (where is he going to build the nice house the American Dream represents, where will he vacation or retire - in the flood waters of Florida or Louisiana ? the desert of Arizona ?)
- a constant fear of being attacked by terrorists since our NSA and military funding had to be cut (well, or maybe them guys won't care as much about as anymore if we're not the leader of the free world anymore ... I dunno lol)
Well, I guess I made my point ... Before you think about yourself and your tax cuts or raises, seriously (!) think about where this COUNTRY is right now, and where it is headed. This is not the time for bickering over idealogical differences. I think both John McCain and Barack Obama are exceptional leaders, and either one would get us out the mess we're in. But either one would need our united effort and support behind them AFTER they'd be elected ...
PS : As of right now, I'd be electing Obama before McCain, as he appears to be cooler, better prepared, more focused and steady. I don't care about either one's past, I'm worried about the future of our children, this country and the world as a whole. (If I need to spend an extra 3 cents per dollar earned for our children's future, I'm prepared; I'll compensate by not buying a second TV or game station, or drive a cheaper automobile, or have chicken for supper instead of steak ...)

"I'm going to repost my cha... (Below threshold)

"I'm going to repost my challenge, and I'm willing to bet no one that's supporting Obama takes it.

Ya know, any police officer has to get zapped by a taser so that they know the effects that they are going to inflict.

I have a challenge for those that want to vote for Obama, since you must think it's a good idea to "redistribute the wealth.", then get done to you what you want done to others. Take 39% of what you have and give it to someone that is less fortunate. If you have 3 TVs give one to someone that doesn't, if you have 2 game systems, give 1 to someone that doesn't. Share the prosperity! Pretend that Obama has just signed into law that you MUST spread the money around, you have no choice, if you don't have enough to give and live on you must change your lifestyle to be able to pay the "TAX".

That's my challenge for those that think the rich are evil and aren't doing their part. It's the Golden Rule Libs, lets see you live by it."


I would like to take you up on that offer. But only if you and every other blogger on here are prepared to volunteer to serve in the Armed Services for just enough pay to feed and house your family. No frills just enough. No taxes no government help. No police officer to get "zapped" or stop crime. No firemen to put out fires, none of that. Do you think you or any of the other great Americans on this blog are going to step up to help your communities or county. I don't think so. Talk is cheap. Say what you want in the blog but we know how you really feel when push comes to shove.

This talk about people who ... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

This talk about people who don't think taxes should be raised in a time of economic downturn don't want to pay their fair share and shouldn't be allowed to use the roads or schools or police, etc. is ridiculous. Do you all realize that the Bush tax cuts resulted in record high revenues?

The idea that the current problems are the result of tax cuts robbing the treasury of money is demonstrably false. The problem has been spending, not tax cuts. Spend less on ridiculous stuff like million dollar overhead projectors and there will be more to spend on all the things government should be paying for. Let people and businesses keep more of their money and they will invest it in hiring employees and purchasing goods and the economy will be better off for it and the government will benefit from healthy tax revenue resulting from a robust economy. It is such a simple concept, really. I don't know why so many Americans don't seem to understand it.

We tell our children to wor... (Below threshold)

We tell our children to work hard, get good grades and someday you might be able to be President. That was once an American Dream.

Work hard, study in school, if your folks can't afford college you could make your own way with scholarships earned from said hard work and studying.

Obama did just that and earned a law degree from the best college in the country if not the world. He knows the American Dream because he has lived it! Only those that are blind by skin pigmentation cannot see this.

If Obama had a wife with a drug problem that got caught stealing from a charity what would you say?

If Obama finished at the bottom of his class in college what would you say?

If Obama had an adulterous affair with a rich woman half his age after his wife was in a car accident what would you say?

If Obama had an under-aged daughter that got pregnant what would you say?

Tell me, please.

And don't be a hypocrit.

it is obama's political bel... (Below threshold)

it is obama's political beliefs that are in question not his skin color.why would you make this about race.#1 everyone can congradulate joe. he has now become the recipent of obamas share the wealth system.if he wins than welcome to the new russia.

You people are so delusiona... (Below threshold)

You people are so delusional and misinformed...no wonder McCain's campaign is quickly going down the crapper along with the rest of the filth and garbage!
notiz=All your broad brushes are belong to us!

Lorie Byrd,,,,take a deep b... (Below threshold)

Lorie Byrd,,,,take a deep breath,drink a cup of cold water,dont burst a vein, stay cool like OBAMA,,,trust me in the end it will do yoour circulatory system a whole lot of good.First all supporters of OBAMA are not thugs,yes there are a lot of African Americans,trust me all African Americans are not Thugs,just beleive it.Second what in your opinion will be an optimumn tax rate that will not equate or turn this Country into a Socialist state...Third are you better off now or do you think this country is in a Worse shape than when Geroge W took over(McCain siding with him most of the time) I guess until last Wednesady( I bet in the words of Julius Caesar (et tu Brute) and you too Brutus..in this case et tu McCain...Take a deep breath OBAMA will be President,it will be ok..we are not going to be Union Socialist State of America....TRUST ME

Obama has failed to submit ... (Below threshold)

Obama has failed to submit proof of his citizenship and birth to the PA court as the Judge in the case filed by Philip Berg requested that Obama do so by 10/15/08.

Stop the Obama Constitutional Crisis and write your Congressman


I think I am much cooler th... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

I think I am much cooler than the Obama followers. I am not digging for dirt on anyone who questions or criticizes John McCain or Sarah Palin.

"First all supporters of OBAMA are not thugs,yes there are a lot of African Americans,trust me all African Americans are not Thugs,just beleive it"

What kind of ridiculous statement is that? What does the word "thug" have to do with African Americans? It never occured to me that a "thug" would be black. I guess I must be racist though because when I think of a thug I think of a big muscle guy from one of the mafia movies or one of those union thugs beating people who dare cross a picket line. Maybe I am racist against Italians or Teamsters? Or maybe you are the racist because you associate the word "thug" with black people. That thought never even crossed my mind. Is that a word people use to describe African Americans? Nobody I know uses it that way. I am curious now. How many Wizbang readers think of a black person when they hear the word "thug"?

Has anyone looked at the cu... (Below threshold)

Has anyone looked at the current tax code? It's progressive, been progressive, and will be. Obama is looking to change the percentages on a tax code which already taxes at higher rates for higher income levels. Why is adding an additional 3 percent such a shock to everyone?

Lorie, pls dont insult the ... (Below threshold)

Lorie, pls dont insult the intelligence of people...such increased Revenue matched against geometrically exponential increase in spending on Wars specifically IRAQ war that could have been avoided..and we still continue with the wasteful spending...pls you are listening to yourself a lot...you are not making sense....If I run a business(and I do )I cut my price so low as to attract so much customers does increasing REVENUE(never mind the rate of increase is decreased...because the Absolute Revenue will less than what it should be..but my cost remain the same or in this case goes up because of the poor judgement of rushing to an unnecessary WAR....What LORIE do you think will happen to GROSS MARGIN ? very simple Accounting pls....Dont come up with this nonsensical increased Tax Revenue talk...pls discuss the concomitant opposite , which is the increased SPENDING...plssssssssssssss

Hey idiot cons: progressive... (Below threshold)
big georgia rock:

Hey idiot cons: progressive taxation was developed by socialists like Teddy Roosevelt. So I guess he's a big freakin' Red.

After being a wild-west sherrif and an NYC prosecutor jailing thieves and killers, he applied the same law enforcement to corporations and pretty much invented regulation. So I guess he's a bigger freakin' Red.

Socialism is what the rich called it when cities put in clean water and sewers, to end the cholera epidemics. "You are subsidizing the poor with my money," they said.
So I guess they were Christian conservatives.

To the Girl who can copy from the dictionary: nothing in your argument or Merriam-Webster says Obama is a socialist.By the way, did you know your conservative "tradition" only dates back to the same era as Marx ? (See the sewer thing above.) The real world never simplifies things like you do and Marx did. Adam Smith in his own day was known as a speculative writer. Free-market ideology is still a fantasy today--just like Marxism.

By the way I'm a big ultra-liberal successful white guy patriot from a red state miltary family who "supports his children independently," and goes to church every week. I've spent my whole life reading history--not just by liberal authors. I would fight for my country and in fact I am right now by opposing people who only believe in democracy when they win.

OBAMA was born in Hawaii, M... (Below threshold)

OBAMA was born in Hawaii, McCain was born outside the Continental USA in a Military Base, by definition they are both Americans..Case Closed...Stop grappling at Straws

Lorie..oh really...the Thug... (Below threshold)

Lorie..oh really...the Thugocracy...Powell will soon submit himself into a Thugocracy.same as William F Buckley son..the rank and file thugocrats are increasing, creating a Rainbow coalition..sorry, that brings memory of philandering Reverend Jackson..oh well

All this talk about spreadi... (Below threshold)

All this talk about spreading the wealth and just what do you think Palin was doing when she raised taxes on the oil companies and sent it to the people of Alaska at least part of it.Same theory. Joe the plumber was a plant pure and simple.IMO he is not an average Joe.It is interesting to note that one bill has already been paid off owed by Joe lets wait and see if the other one is.Palin and McCain should learn that when you live in glass houses you should not throw stones.As for Obama keeping a smile on his face during the debate,even I had to laugh at McCains attempts to discredit Obama.McCains evil smile said it all.He knew what was comming which is why I believe Joe was a plant to give Mccain a hail mary pass.To bad so sad most people see it for what it was a set up and they have already read about the taxes on people earning over 250,000 and the tax is only on the amount over 250,000 not the whole amount.Joe better get someone to help him understand what was said.Maybe he doesn't have a computer so he can't check thinks out for himself.John McCain and Joe agrees with him wants to stop the S.S. taxes Stop and think people wspecially those still on S.S. where will the money come from. No matter who gets in taxes will have to rise.

I WONDER HOW MUCH MCCAIN PA... (Below threshold)

OF $1200. !!!!!

I DON'T MAKE $250,000 A YEA... (Below threshold)








Apparently, some people nee... (Below threshold)

Apparently, some people need to read Andrew Carnegie. He spoke of wealth and the priviliged. People who make over $250,000 are complaining about 3%?? These are the priviliged people who aspired and worked hard to actually reach their dream. As Carnegie said, they have the RESPONSIBILITY to give back to the community, due to their status. This isn't the rise of socialism, it is the epitomy of American selfishness. You want everything and don't want to help anyone. We are in multiple wars, the American infrastructure is crumbling including Medicare which will fall apart in ten years, and the education system which is the key to this country's future prosperity. Wake up, quit being so selfish about YOUR money and look at taxes as an investment in America, not as the big bad government took an extra 3% now i have to buy the 40" LCD TV instead of the 60"

Joe the Plumber (who's not ... (Below threshold)

Joe the Plumber (who's not even a licensed plumber) said that he was going to buy a business that made $250-280k. Then he admitted that he was going to buy it FOR $250k. That's a big difference and completely changes his situation. He'll be lucky if he even makes $100k with the company, in which case his taxes would not increase with Obama's plan. That should have already answered his question, but since you want to get into it...

Even if taxes did go up for those making $250k or more, hey, prices of everything else have gone up. People are losing their jobs, food prices have gone up astronomically, but the country still needs to provide things like public transportation, libraries, fire and police departments, social workers, etc. So who's going to pay for these things? Those making $250k+ can take a bigger hit than those making $25k or $35/yr who can barely make enough to support themselves and their families. Also, bigger earners SHOULD pay more because they use more resources and benefit more from taxpayer-funded services and programs.

I don't know why you keep treating "tax" like it's an evil word. If you had it your way, no one would pay any taxes, and everyone would have to make their own arrangements for a police and fire departments, schools K-12, sanitation. Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue if not everyone can pay for these things? Where do you think all these things come from? Do you think they just magically appear?? NO. They are paid for with taxpayers' money so we should absolutely have taxes.

Warren Buffett, the richest guy in the world, wants to pay more taxes and has urged that the tax cuts go toward lower-income people, who both need and will spend the money gained. Do you think that he made his billions for his LACK of understanding about taxes and their consequences on a corporation?


joe the almost plumber is a... (Below threshold)

joe the almost plumber is a loser. according to his divorce filings in 2006 he makes $40000 a year. are you kidding me? i pay more in taxes than that guy makes in a year?! and HE'S complaining?!
joe needs to worry about paying his back taxes instead of some outlandish possibility that he'll increase his salary more than tenfold in his lifetime, let alone during obama's presidency.
furthermore, even you conservatives have to agree it's laughable that you around calling obama a socialist when we've just nationalized our banks and largest mortgage firms! guess you should have looked up the definition of socialism before you voted bush twice.

Let me if I may give my opi... (Below threshold)

Let me if I may give my opinion here. The top 5% in this country making $250,000 or more, have excess to CPA's & lawyers who find them every friggin loophole in the book, which probably gets them out of paying their fair share, I think Obama's plan may even the playing field some.

Do you realize that the pra... (Below threshold)

Do you realize that the practice of socialism brings starvation to its citizens? Go to these countries and see how the average citizen lives and what's on the grocery shelves. Nothing.

If I am going to be taxed 50 percent, and the one in power (the poliburo) is going to take my money and give it away to someone else, then why would I even bother to work. I am not stupid--so who would pay all those taxes then. I believe all you people who think you would benefit from taking my money--guess what, you have another thing coming. I'll never give you my money. I'll just lay down and let you begin to work for me.

This experiment in socialism was tried once on American soil in the settlement of Jamestown. At first all settlers divided evenly everything they grew; however, as is so true with human nature not all were willing to work. Many were lazy yet still benefitted equally of the bounty of the settlement. The next harvest period everyone became lazy because there was no incentive to work hard if all the harvest were just divided evenly. They almost starved to death--almost half of the settlement did succomb to starvation. After that miserable experiment, Captain John Smith said that each man could keep what he grew, and that "if a man did not work he would not eat." Do you know what happened? The settlement flourished. There was no starvation and everyone worked because those who had not worked previously realized that they could not depend upon others to take care of them. They must apply their own industry to take care of themselves. God help us if we try this despicable experiment again.

Redistribution of wealth is... (Below threshold)

Redistribution of wealth is happening. It happens under any government. Any time a government takes your money through taxes and gives it to someone else, that is redistribution of wealth.

40% of our taxes go to pay for Military spending. The bulk of that goes to corporations and their employees. How is that not redistribution of wealth?

The only question you should be asking yourselves is how you want your money distributed. Do you want to make rich folks richer and poor folks poorer? Or do you want to make poor folks less poor and rich folks less rich?

Republicans LOVE socialism.... (Below threshold)
Average Joe the republican ass kicker:

Republicans LOVE socialism. Yes, SOCIALISM. They take the taxpayers money and give it to the corporations. That his called corporate socialism. Its also called corporate WELFARE! If a president wants to spend MY tax dollars on ME, that that is NOT socialism, Cuntservatives! GET A LIFE!

kimmy honey, do you underst... (Below threshold)

kimmy honey, do you understand what socialism is? if you do, you know that increasing the marginal tax rate for the top tax bracket by 3% (notably, back to the rate it was pre-gw bush) can hardly be called socialism.
take a breather. you're watching too much fox news. it isn't good for you. think back to those ads about your brain, and your brain on drugs... replace drugs with fox news and there you go.

Next time you morons talk a... (Below threshold)

Next time you morons talk about how bad spreading the wealth is try understand your own hypocricy. I'm tired of paying taxes so some repub can get a tax break for each of their kids. Or that our taxes also go to police and fire services for the benefit of all who need it. I don't see you having a conservative fit over that.
noitz=Only morons use broad brushes at Wizbang.

This is not an issue of the... (Below threshold)

This is not an issue of the redistribution of wealth. It's about spreading the tax burden fairly among all citizens. The tax philosophy favored by the current administration (and by Republicans traditionally) perpetuates a huge wealth disparity: the richest 2 percent of the country get richer while the other 98 percent see their wealth decrease.

What's wrong with asking the rich, who benefit the most from our system of capitalism and democracy, to give back a little bit more than everyone else in terms of taxes? Those who benefit the most from a system should be asked to support it the most. Each citizen must play their part, and make their sacrifice, and for the rich, that sacrifice is higher taxes.

The most important thing to consider, however, is this: a couple more percentage points of tax on the richest 2 percent in the country will do nothing to limit the happiness and overall life satisfaction of those richest 2 percent. Indeed, it will continue to perpetrate the system that has ensured their riches. But what it will also do, and what is most important, is that it will alleviate some of the tax burden off the other 98 percent of the country, expand the middle class, open up millions to the reality of the American dream, not to mention the money it will raise for important social services, like social security and health care.

The trickle-down theory of economics has been proven untrue; all it does is perpetrate economic inequality and eliminate the middle class. The country is at its best, it strongest, when the middle class is strong. A strong middle class has strong purchasing power; a power which in turn drives the economy and makes our economic system work, bringing jobs and money to all classes. Thus, a middle and lower class tax break, in concert with a raise in taxes for the richest 2 percent of the country, as Barack Obama and Joe Biden propose, will make our country stronger because it will increase the size of the middle class. So, in essence, Joe Biden was right: higher taxes on the wealthiest Americans is patriotic because it increases the size of the middle class, which in turn makes America stronger. We all have our sacrifices to make for the future of America. For the rich, that should involve higher taxes. Anything else will hurt America.

No one said that. No one... (Below threshold)

No one said that. No one even implied that. No one "lied".-Oyster

Um, whatever, Oyster...justrand said that.

Diane can't just ask Joe the question...she needs to throw in the Obama SPIN at the same time. Obama is NOT just talking about a THREE PERCENT increase. He has routinely talked about tax brackets that go up to FIFTY PERCENT!! But Diane tries to minimize the increase we're talking about.-justrand

So maybe he is lying?

I am bothered by the insinu... (Below threshold)

I am bothered by the insinuations that any person who is not wealthy is lazy. I have two children (with medical problems), I work, I am in college, and I homeschool my son. I work constantly in one fashion or another. I am not lazy, I am not a single mother, and I do not have a criminal record. I make $13,134 per year. My husband makes less. Eventually, once we have our degrees (2 years for him, 6 for me), we will make more. I will have no problem paying a higher percentage of my income in taxes if I ever make more than $250,000 per year (which by the way is about 7 times my current household income). I will be well aware that I am paying back my country for the assistance that I received when I was poor. I do not understand why anyone who has honestly struggled to work their way up the ladder would not feel the same.

I never thought to live to ... (Below threshold)
Estephan Jones:

I never thought to live to see an "African American Robinhood" as our next president. Or have U.S. become the largest Socialist country in the world. I guess slavory is still alive. This time educated and hard working people slave to work hard and feed the majority who depend (and are used to) government handouts.

Another attempt to hide the... (Below threshold)

Another attempt to hide the truth from the public. Law suit case is "Berg v. Obama, no. 08-cv-04083".
Obvious that documents do not exist to prove that Obama is qualified to be President.
BETBONIE is right!!! Write your Congressman.
Law Suit against OBAMA.
Check it out.

This is truly a fascinating... (Below threshold)

This is truly a fascinating thread. Many of the commentators have valid arguments on both sides of the fence. I haven't noticed anyone mention the concept of a flat tax and what that could do for us as a country. I am a high earner by most definitions and my company employs 25 people. I pay a huge amount to social security which I will likely never see. People rant about what is another 3% to a rich person. I have no problem paying "my fair share" but what I have a problem with is ALL of the politicians in Washington having no concept of how to manage money, none period. If you don't have the money, you can't afford to do it, buy it, spend it. It is not a hard concept for 99% of us, why can't the government get a clue? It is because all of them (dems and repubs) are beholden to special interests and not to us as regular folks.
So, yes I have a problem with more taxes and more handouts or whatever you want to call it for some. Irrespective, it's going to be a big scary world for my small children

No one should be "made" to ... (Below threshold)

No one should be "made" to share their indivdual wealth under any plan or administration. This is why we have charities, etc. The desire/ability to "share" should be protected as an individual's inherent right and NOT mandated by government. Spread the wealth, cough, bulk up the middle class, coughs again. We are the nation! In order for our democracy to work it requires all social stratus' and people from all walks of life. Amen. God Bless the USA (waves flag)

I'm not a Dem but "JOE the ... (Below threshold)

I'm not a Dem but "JOE the Plumber" is a fraud just like McBush.

His name is not Joe
He is not a plumber
He will get a tax break under Obama (since he only makes $40k)
The company he "wants to buy" does not make $250,000 (not even half that) so even that argument is moot
He is a deadbeat that will not even pay the taxes that Republicans have passed into law
Yet he wants to reap the benefits paid for by us tax payers! - like military protection, roads, etc. etc.

Do I know anyone who would ... (Below threshold)

Do I know anyone who would refuse to get wealthier because they would have to pay a few percent more taxes? You can have my $27,000 income and pay less taxes and I'll take the $250,000 and pay more willingly.

If Joe, the plumber, (who i... (Below threshold)

If Joe, the plumber, (who isn't one really), cannot even afford to buy said business as he claims, and it appears working without a plumber's license, and is not even in the tax bracket he purported to be, and he is willing to pay more taxes under Mccain then it is his right to do so.

God bless America

I'm a liberal. proud of it ... (Below threshold)
Steve Johnson:

I'm a liberal. proud of it and love making money and have no problem or fear of paying the tax man. Only a conservative tool like Joe the Plumber would talk as if he doesn't want to work hard to make more money because then he'd have to pay more taxes. Joe is the kind of guy the GOP loves - STUPID!

Joe the plumber is trying t... (Below threshold)

Joe the plumber is trying to live the american dream. He asked a legitimate question and the response he got should scare the dickens out of everyone that does NOT want to live in a socialist nation. Shame on you Joe Biden for making fun of him!

Yes, it's so ,like, unfair ... (Below threshold)

Yes, it's so ,like, unfair to tax the rich more. They don't send their kids to public schools or public universities, they fly rather than drive on streets and freeways, so if schools and streets and freeways and bridges and libraries and everything else are, like, not working too well, why should they pay for them? If we don't have enough money from taxes, we should invade some countries and get their oil and money, or we borrow some more money from China. It's not like we'll have to pay back any time soon. Let the next generation worry about it.

this joe story is kindda bo... (Below threshold)

this joe story is kindda boring.but i thought maybe we could spice it up a bit.as this joe guy seems to be an aspiring hollywood actor,maybe Obama should pay him to feature in thier own Ad next tomorrow.these jokers also say Obama goofed by saying something???McCain should be hanged for saying America is in a recession when she isnt.guess he could not use the internet that was why.

Even if Joe's businees does... (Below threshold)

Even if Joe's businees does make more than $250,000 gross that has NOTHING to do with Obama's tax plan. The taxes Obama is raising is on personal income over $250,000. It has NOTHING to do with business income. I once owned a business that grossed more than $500,000 per year but my salery from that business was nowhere near the $250,000 range.

I am currently making $200,000 per year range and I do not know what I like less, 1) an extra 3% in the high bracket of income taxes under obama, or getting my health insurance benifits taxed at 35% tax rate. Even with McCains $5,000 dollar rebate I pay more under McCain than Obama.

I need to move my movey offshore!

"If you don't have the m... (Below threshold)
Allison H.:

"If you don't have the money, you can't afford to do it, buy it, spend it. It is not a hard concept for 99% of us, why can't the government get a clue?"

Oh, Sean. Really? 99% of us don't spend money we don't have on things we can't afford?

Americans have been just as debt-happy and short-sighted as the people we've elected to represent us. Maybe not you, and maybe not me, but the vast, vast majority of us have.

If we hadn't, we wouldn't be in a situation that the government needed to bail us out of, now, would we?

The whole fraud being pushe... (Below threshold)

The whole fraud being pushed is the idea that income is supposed to be taxed in the first place. Get rid of income taxes and pass the FairTax so that the amount of resources consumed determines the amount of government you pay for. The rich will pay more if they buy more stuff that needs protecting, and the poor can avoid taxes by being frugal.

Don't look to Joe "SixPack for brains" for economic policies. We are all going to be chewing an arm off when the Republicans and their beneficiaries get done with us.

All the reactionaries cryin... (Below threshold)

All the reactionaries crying about the U.S. entering into "socialism" obviously either don't have a firm grasp on the history of tax rates--or they're ignoring it because it's convenient. If having a top tax rate of 39% makes a country a socialist regime, then we were a socialist country from 1993-2002.

The Great Generation would no doubt be surprised to be told that they lived in a "socialist" nation from 1928-1983 when the tax rate was above 39% for the entire period. In fact during most of these years the top tax rate hovered between 50-90%!

This socialism charge is simply an absurd attempt to foment fear. When you're loosing and can't win an argument some folks resort to name calling. I guess it may be too much to ask Joe to learn anything about the definition of socialism or tax history. I hope the rest of us will look to the facts in making our decisions.

A progressive tax rate doesn't make a nation socialistic. If that were the case then Ike, Nixon, Reagan, the Bush dynasty, were socialists too. McCain's plan also includes higher tax rates for individuals with higher income.

The fear and loathing among many in this country are palpable. A lie doesn't become the truth because someone keeps repeating it--it just becomes what most people believe. Let's make sure that the pesky thing called truth continues to be heard over the den of lies.

On redistribution of the we... (Below threshold)

On redistribution of the wealth...I'm all for it, (and for the record, Obama is far from a socialist).

I work a data entry job right now and get paid around 10 bucks an hour. In my last job, I got paid around 6 an hour for sorting through donations at a thrift store.

The funny thing? I'm far more calmed down at my higher-paying data entry job since I'm computer savvy, yet I make more than I ever did busting my ass at that conveyor belt. Turn it around a bit, and you'll get someone who's stressed out using Word while they're OK busting their ass.

This is why I think our quasi-feudal system is a joke. Why are the rich necessarily 'the most productive members of society'? Most indeed work hard, but do they really work harder than a construction worker or bricklayer?

And #74, that chain e-mail ... (Below threshold)

And #74, that chain e-mail you posted is pointless. A college GPA isn't at all the same as work pay.

When you work, you're paid according to hours, not performance. (Raises barely count...a mediocre low-end worker is paid just as much per hour as an outstanding low-end worker.) College students are given a GPA according to how WELL they work, not how OFTEN they work.

I'm sure we all know that J... (Below threshold)

I'm sure we all know that Joe the unlicensed plumber was planted there to ask Obama that question.(that's probably why Obama answered as he did) Obama is a very smart man, as we have all learned. The Republicans should have checked their smoking gun's records a little more before making him the topic of McCain's final debate. I wonder where the $250,000.00 is going to come from for joe the unlicensed plumber to buy his company???? Oh, don't worry Joe the unlicensed Plumber, your back taxes will be swept under the rug, and your small business check is probably in the mail if McCain wins the election. BUT you can still buy your company and rest assured because when Obama WINS the election, under Obama's tax plan.....YOU WILL NOT BE TAXED.

OK, there was this conguy i... (Below threshold)

OK, there was this conguy in the neighborhood. He said, "Give me your money. Look at the poor. I'll help them. Give me your money." So, you give him your money. You find out that 97-98% of your money went to pay his staff, went to organized crime... and maybe 2-3% actually did some good.

The poor have gotten poorer... and crooks have gotten richer. He spent all the money you gave him. Not only that, he borrowed more money than you gave him - cuz he said he could get more money from you to pay what he borrowed in your name.

Now, the poor have gotten poorer - they need more help now more than ever. The guy comes back and says, "Look at the poor. We've got to help the poor." But you know he mismanaged the money you gave him AND created a crisis.

Are you going to put away your common sense and believe that the reason there are poor people with needs is because YOU FAILED to give that guy enough money?? And do you believe that giving him MORE money is going to solve anything??

Since when do loving people fail to be good enough stewards of their money that they keep giving to that guy when they could give their money to an effective charity that doesn't waste the money, steal the money, borrow too much money, and create crisis? Why wouldn't you choose to give to someone who will actually help people instead of to that wastrel, that liar, that thief, that no good who ruined your economy??

What's that guys name?? Uncle Sam.

The definition of crazy?? Doing the same thing and expecting different results.

So you people believe that we have a financial crisis, we have poor people, we have people out of work, we have a 10 trillion dollar deficit - ALL BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVEN'T PAID ENOUGH TAXES AND GIVEN THE GOVERNMENT ENOUGH MONEY TO WORK WITH???

No, that's not the problem. Government spending is the problem. Government waste. Government corruption.

And you want to give them more money to waste, steal, nad use to destroy the economy even more??

Are you crazy??

We need to fire the Congress and politicians - give them LESS MONEY... not give them a raise.

You people who think higher taxes are the solution must think that lower taxes were the problem. No. Crooks for politicians was the problem and is the problem. And if you think giving them more money is a solution - YOU ARE CRAZY.

Think about it... and quit being such ez victims for these politicians to exploit and enslave. Give your own money to charity... and fight for lower taxes for everyone. Don't reward Congress. They've destroyed our economy.

"Oh, but they PROMISED they'd take money from someone else and give it to me!"

Oh my lands. Are you that easily played??

Let someone slap you to break the hypnotic spell. You've been charmed out of sanity and are under the evil spell of a magician and sorceror. Oh foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched thee?

Serena,Just checki... (Below threshold)


Just checking. YOu realize that Obama voted not to extend tax reductions Bush created, right?

You realize that Obama is therefore raising everyone's taxes, right??

You realize you're being hoodwinked nad deceived and people are just conning you -- with the MSM's help, right??

You are not that naive, are you - to believe the half-truths, that are lies, that Obama is telling you, right??

I think I'm getting it. It... (Below threshold)

I think I'm getting it. It's becoming clear. What Obama is is like one of those tv prosperity preachers that people wanna believe in - even after it's proven they are stealing everyone's money and don't give a rip for the poor.

(Not all - but most are that way if you check out the facts.)

You people sound just like ... (Below threshold)

You people sound just like the radicals at McCain's rallies.Did you even watch the debates and do you even know what's going on in this country.If Obama didn't keep his cool he'd be just another angry black guy then you'd have even more of a reason to mudsling.As for the comment he corrected himself many times for it and calls it the worst mistake he ever made.Yes he can admit his mistakes unlike McCain.Also this article is what my professors would call a biased source so I hope the hope this isn't the only place you're getting your information.I was was undecided but after watching the debates and doing the research I know who I'm voting for and it will not be McCain.Honestly,you think Palin is ready for such a position as vice president ?She is just another puppet to swing wemon voters. Even Biden would be a better choice for president than McCain.I admire his service to our country but that's no reason to vote for him .Issues that's what's important not popularity.I'm glad my fellow Americans are starting to see it.We need less of the same and more of a change .I'm not voting for anyone who owns 11 houses and whose wife makes 4.2 million dollars a year who claims to be for the common people.That's not middle class to me.I don't see how anyone who is can relate to that or think that's relates to them.

Hey retards, of course Obam... (Below threshold)
vladimir putin:

Hey retards, of course Obama is gonna have socialist leanings! Everyone who isn't retarded knows that the democratic party is the closest thing we have in america to socialism. They also know that some watered down level of socialism is necesarry for balance is our country. Socialism in its truest form cares only about protecting the people, so the heart of that sentiment should never be removed from our country, or we'll all get screwed, it should only be checked, hence the second party known as the republicans. Each provides us with a valuable strategy and different strengths. And, each need their shot at running the country from time to time. I'm a Bush republican twice over, but this time around, i'm voting for Obama. And by the way, there are alot more people out there just like me, who aren't political warmongers; we'll be deciding the election this year.
notiz=Your comment has been retarded.

Obama's plan would have to ... (Below threshold)

Obama's plan would have to be taken to the unrealistic extremes that you all envision, in order to be considered socialism. FYI: To you "slippery slope" arguers, it's not as if the prez has absolute power on tax issues anyway, so get a grip. Do you people not see the middle class disappearing?? It's ridiculous. McSame doesn't give 2 craps about Joe the Plumber, he's just using him to get what he wants. No, I'm not getting ready to buy a $250,000 business, I'm doing shift work at my local hospital, and I'd much rather keep my taxes stable with Obama, than see all my patients being denied healthcare under McCain's ridiculous plan. It's like your papaw giving you 5 cents to go the store for groceries--that ain't gonna cut it these days.
I'm an open-minded person, but I've never hated a presidential candidate as much as I've hated McCain. He's gonna put us all in the poorhouse, and Lord knows where his moron of a running mate will take us if she gets the chance. But you fools just eat up their buzzwords "Maverick" "Joe the Plumber" "POW", and think "Wow, this is the guy for me!" Get real.

BTW-- All of McCain's point... (Below threshold)

BTW-- All of McCain's points aside, the man is older than dirt, and the thought of Palin as president is terrifying. How will she find time to be president while reading EVERY MAGAZINE IN AMERICA??

I find it funny that Joe is... (Below threshold)
kenneth hi:

I find it funny that Joe is worried about paying taxes, higher taxes on a income he has never earned in he's life. Rich people are far less concerned with paying taxes(they have accountants for that worry), so why is he really that concerned? Maybe because he is poor and worried about nothing, and so is making a point about nothing. If he was someone actually in that postion I could give he's point a real true life value, but as it stands now what he is concerned about is not real. And so the issue is not real as it relates to Joe the plumber. What he (Joe the plumber) was saying about what was unfair in regards to paying a little more in way of taxes sounds as if he would vote for the other guy (McCain) just so he could avoid paying a little more in taxes. I wonder how he'll feel about he's choice once he finds he'll probably have to pay even more then he thought weather he makes 250 thousand a year or not in order to pay for the war in Iraq that will most likely occur under the leadership of John McCain if he is our next President.

Re: No. 145 by Id and Re: "... (Below threshold)

Re: No. 145 by Id and Re: "No, that's not the problem. Government spending is the problem. Government waste. Government corruption."

I don't suppose that giving them nothing would solve the problem of corruption. The government does need some tax money.

And it turns out that even the Presidents who have called the most for tax reductions have had PLENTY of corruption. I am referring to the current administration.

Some examples:


and this


and this


and this


No one is saying small busi... (Below threshold)

No one is saying small businessmen should pay no taxes. They are saying it is insane to raise taxes in an economic downturn.

Since cutting tax rates has almost always resulted in INCREASED tax revenue (Bush's tax cuts resulted in record tax revenues), that doesn't even make sense as an argument.

Since the Obama camp is mak... (Below threshold)
Artist against Obama:

Since the Obama camp is making fun of Joe the Plumber and have worked hard to find dirt about him maybe it is time that the McCain camp find dirt on Shepard the Artist. Obama hand picked Shepard Fairey as his official campaign artist and has openly praised Shepard's illegal activity and career. A career that has been built on violating the legal rights of other artists and visual rhetoric that promotes violence on the streets.

Why on earth did Obama make him his official campaign artist? Obama actually sent Shepard a letter praising his career and his illegal activity, like putting Obama stickers on stop signs! So does that mean that Obama supports illegal activity that cost tax payers billions per year in city clean up? Why is the media not pointing this out? Obama refuses donations from Rezko but accepts $400,000 in donations from Obama merchandise from this thug?

Shepard Fairey has made images of the White House burning in the past and images that depict President Bush being taken down. How is that not negative for this country? Better question, why does Obama praise Shepard's career when it is been based on attacking this country and the government with visual rhetoric that is overly violent? Because he is a socialist. That is why. That is why Shepard keeps saying his work is more "positive" now. Bullocks!

Shepard Fairey's original HOPE image of Obama is not 'original'. It is based off of a poster that another artist made of Che in the 60s. Shepard Fairey is a copyright violator and petty criminal. Look up Rene Mederos and the work that Shepard stole from him. He does not give anyone credit unless he is caught, or "busted" as he puts it. The only copyright Shepard Fairey acknowledges is his own.

Obama has said great things about the arts and how he will fund art education and programs, but at what cost? His actions by hand picking Shepard Fairey to reperesent his campaign visually proves that he does not care about the rights of artists. Either that or he is too lazy to do a simple search for 'Shepard Fairey' online in order to find out who exactly this art thief and criminal is. The fact that Obama does not answer his artist supporters about his thoughts on the oprhan works bill also shows that he does not care about the rights of artists. He cares about art, but not about the rights of those who create it! That is socialism my friends!

Iam a blue collar worker. I... (Below threshold)
Rick Morris:

Iam a blue collar worker. I fit pipe for a living ,but i am also trying to start a gunsmithing business I worked 50 and 70 hours a week to pay off my house ,I did not get a bell out because I overloaded the wagon and I don,t think anyone who did should either. I take money from my regular job to buy tools for my hopeiful new business and after working so hard to get what I have I do not think what I have should be spread to people who stand on the corner all day and draw a government check .This bailout plan is just a cover for the greedy .The Bible says It is easier to thread a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven each politician should read this and adjust the way they live and the way they think and conduct there lives Honest money belongs to the person who earned it not a street corner hood.

Gawd I hate Repugnicans!... (Below threshold)
Joe the Plumber?? How about G. Gordon Liddy!:

Gawd I hate Repugnicans!!

They're all evil immoral degenerate violent vicious slimy disgusting perverted sicko hypocritical criminals. Every last one of them! (and the vast majority are both homophobic AND in the closet too!).

I find it funny the Rethugnicans keep bringing up nonsense issues like some unlicensed plumber named Joe and Prof. William Ayers. What about how the Repignicans have elevated Tricky Dick Nixon's own dirty tricks "plumber", that criminal felon and sicko punk terrorist, G. Gordon Liddy.... a cretin even lower than Kkkarl Rove, Sean Insannity, Rush (pass me an oxycontin!) Limburger, or Nazi Ann the man Coulter. The Repukenicans worship reich-wing terrorist hypocrites like Liddy who had to be stopped from assassinating a political cartoonist, firebombing the Brookings Institution, and assorted other murderous felonies But the Repugnicans worship this animal and give him his own radio show. Just like they did to that lying felon Ollie North.

Just what is it with the RepuKKKenicans anyway? Why are they all so immoral, so evil, so violent, so vicious, so treasonous, so perverted, so murderous, so chickenhawkish, and why do they hate America so much and have absolutely no respect for our laws or the Constitution? And why are these Hell-bound hypocrites so paranoid about the idea of a fair election? Why do they always have to steal elections instead of allowing the people to vote & have their votes actually count without the Repugnicans trying to get the votes thrown out that they don't like? Truly, the Rethugnicans are as evil and unamerican as they come.

That's why this Joe the plumber nonsense is just a waste of time. Heck, the crimes od Dumbya alone could fill entire libraries and are more important than Joe. And speaking of books (something that Repignicans like to burn)... read Vice Bugliosi's book on the impeachment of George W. Bush! It's way past time this pathological serial murderer is brought to justice for his literally endless list of crimes!!!

Overtax Joe the plumber's b... (Below threshold)

Overtax Joe the plumber's boss, and Joe might be out of a job. Obama: It's not that I want to punish your success; it's just that while you're out working hard, we've got people ... who don't have any money. Now, if you take 16, and divide it by 32, add 9, and square it by the sum of the root of the hypotenuse, ah you'll pay less with my tax plan. Don't quote me on that, um you might pay a little more; that is unless of course you divide by 6, add 8, and subtract 3.

Now ten years ago, if you'd been enrolled under my plan ... is it hot out here? I mean the drug trade could completely collapse. I know where there are some great mortgages though. Frankly, I'm a champagne & caviar man myself. Some hard working people over here, you know, can barely make ends meet. Anyway, how many plumbers do you know who make a quarter-million dollars a year? (I know my plumber does.) But thanks for the question. Say, I've got to get out of here. I've got a debate to prepare for. Hey, I respect what you do.

What is past is prologue: http://theseedsof9-11.com

"Now, if you take 16, and d... (Below threshold)
Kevin Andersen:

"Now, if you take 16, and divide it by 32, add 9, and square it by the sum of the root of the hypotenuse, ah you'll pay less with my tax plan. Don't quote me on that, um you might pay a little more; that is unless of course you divide by 6, add 8, and subtract 3....."

...sounds exactly like the way Sarah Palin talks! (I guess that's probably something that can't be helped if you have as little education as she has)

Well, at least she's not as bad as Dictator Bushit.

LEARN THE **REAL** TRUTH BE... (Below threshold)






PLEASE, for the sake of America, PLEASE look into the truth behind 9-11!!!! Don't go through life with blinders on, being controlled by the Republicans like the compliant lemming they want you to be!!!!

<a href="http://stj911.org"... (Below threshold) I cannot believe how all of... (Below threshold)

I cannot believe how all of you are so duped. Right now the AMT ((Alternative Minimum Tax) is slated to hit all those who make over $100,000 (that's married people making $100,000)by the year 2010 and Obama has said nothing about relieving citizens of that tax. In addition, do you all remember Bill clinton promising the middle class a tax cut in 1992 and then one month into office he proposed to raise taxes on everyone including the middle class. His new tax was in place by August of 1993. Don't think you will escape the Democrat tax machine. Joe the Plumber is a lot smarter than you because he know that it will reach much deeper than just those individuals and businesses who make more than $250,000. Oh, and by the way, when those small businesses and large corporations are paying a larger percentage in taxes instead of adding employees to their work rolls, who are you going to work for? A few thousand dollars doled out to you will not replace the job you just lost.

I have worked hard for 25 years and paid off numerous student loans. As soon as the student loans were paid off (oh, and I did pay then), then it was time to pay for my son to go to college and that is paid off. Now my daughter is a college student and does not "qualify" for any assistance, yet those who make under $60,000 may attend Harvard and Yale and Duke absolutely free. So I am paying $50,000 a year for college that others do not have to pay and then you tell me that I owe the AMT and additional taxes that Obama will impose(and don't even think about telling me it will only be 3%--think again on that one--that's his starting place). When you've worked hard your whole life to make a more comfortable living for your children and then you are told that you don't deservde to keep your hard-earned money--that 45% of citizens who pay absolutely no taxes deserve to receive a portion of my money because I need to "share the wealth." I give to the charities of my choice, and I resent having a government take my hard-earned money and just give it to somone who is not paying any taxes. I don't care what you want to call it--welfare, socialism, marxism. It is all the same philosophy--to take from those producuers and give to those who are not producing. Why should anyone who enjoys services provided by government be exempt from paying some sort of tax? What makes you better than me to contribute to your country?

The funniest Joe The Plumbe... (Below threshold)

The funniest Joe The Plumber parody is at

I'm Pullin' For Palin - The Unofficial Tribute To Our Future VPILF

Joe The Plumber - I Know Crap When I See It

If anyone believes that Oba... (Below threshold)

If anyone believes that Obama will not raise taxes on everyone (eventually) and will not increase the size and role of government is an absolute idiot. This is what he will do as this is what the democratic party is all about. You may as well be voting for Pelosi, Kennedy or Gore. They all believe in taxing and government control. You people are all lemmings and are marching to the edge of the cliff. You are just to stupid to know it.

Obama's first, second, and ... (Below threshold)

Obama's first, second, and third priority is to get elected. If that means pandering to large numbers of people who want a free ride, he'll be happy to throw them a few crumbs as a way to get their votes. He will also turn democracy and capitalism on it's head, and villainize the affluent and successful in our society, in order to rally the masses behind him. With evangelical zeal Obama will convince his followers to replace reason with hope and belief ... to blindly follow him ... never challenge him ... and embrace his words as gospel. In the real, and unforgiving world of economics however, when you immediately gratify everyone by feasting on the goose that lays the golden eggs, the economy looses it's ability to continue generating growth and wealth. Obama is promising everyone a piece of the pie, whether they helped bake it, or not ... but, only in a socialistic, or communist state do the non-contributors demand to share equally in the property that belongs to others. Immediate gratification, and getting something for nothing, is like a drug to the malcontents, but in the big picture, every farmer knows that even if you get hungry, you never eat your seed crop ... unless you want it to be your last meal. If Obama gets elected, America will turn into a third world country, with massive government welfare programs, unable to generate jobs for it's citizens, and unable to compete in the global markets. Keep America safe, free and strong ... elect McCain/Palin on November 4th.

THE PERFECT STORM FOR A DEP... (Below threshold)

A far left Media ...
A far left President ...
A far left Congress ...
A far left Senate ...
A far left Supreme Court ...
This would eliminate all the checks and
balances that our democracy is based upon.
Barack Obama formed his political and economic
ideology, and his radical associations, during the
TWENTY YEARS ... yes, that's TWENTY YEARS ... when
he followed Marxist Black Liberation Theology, in
Jeremiah Wright's anti-American, racist church.
And, now, with our country on the brink of depression,
Obama wants to impose new laws which would change
America into a third world country.
You may be upset with George Bush, but in spite
of Obama's slogans, John McCain is NOT George Bush ...
so don't over react to Obama's 600 million dollar
Propaganda campaign designed to highjack America !!!
A vote for Obama is a vote for changing America beyond
recognition ... and, it would be a vote for voter fraud,
a corrupt media, socialism, and the end to America as we know it.
Keep America free, strong, safe, and American ...
Elect McCain/Palin on November 4th.

Obama's tax plan will destr... (Below threshold)

Obama's tax plan will destroy the Social Security system.

Obama says his income tax plan will lower taxes for 95% of Americans. There is just one problem with this, 40% of Americans already pay no income tax. Obama's response to this is that these people pay Social Security tax. Well, that's not income tax, but a contribution to their retirement plan. So if he wins and implements his tax plan, for the first time in the history of Social Security, 40% of the people who will get retirement benefits will have paid nothing for them. Social Security will then loose all pretext of being a retirement plan, and will become a national welfare program.

This will cause Social Security to lose public support in a massive way. Leave Social Security contributions out of income tax plans. If you take some peoples income taxes to pay others Social Security taxes, Social Security will be destroyed forever.







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