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Obamacare 2.0 Presidential Address - Open Thread

You know the drill... Our writers will be along later to comment on the speach, but this is your spot to comment on it as it happens.

Full text of the speech (via The White House) available at Top of the Ticket.


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Comments (58)

/yawn. I am watching a rer... (Below threshold)
retired military:

/yawn. I am watching a rerun of Bones. I think she knows more about how to provide decent medical care for everyone than Obama does. Although the show does display some leftward tilt everyone now and then.

I'm listening to Mark Levin... (Below threshold)

I'm listening to Mark Levin do real-time commentary...it at least makes listening to Obama read TOTUS survivable!

Enough of <a href="http://w... (Below threshold)
Victory is Ours:

Enough of Death by Profit Margin:

Let's start with a fundamental truth: Insurance companies are in the business of not paying claims.

By not paying your claim, they get to keep all those premiums you pay. Maximizing their benefit by minimizing their risk, by finding loopholes and other reason to deny claims unless and until they are either cornered into paying them or a claim is so clear-cut they can't avoid it under risk of bad faith. Welcome to the wonderful world of profit and to hell with the consequences.

Health Insurance companies profit by saying no - and when they do, Americans die.

And they've been unable to contain costs, which is why reform is needed.

But bottom line -- they're killing us in their quest for profits, and if they didn't kill us they would have zero profits.

Reform is needed. Health care costs need to be contained, and the Insurance companies have had their chance and they've failed.

Add that to the needless deaths, and how can anyone argue that reform isn't needed?


Its govt thats the big bad ... (Below threshold)

Its govt thats the big bad monster not a company that earns maybe a 3-5% profit margin.

Anyone that doesnt understand the long term consequences of 'No pre-existing conditions exclusion' is just too fricken stupid, and isnt worth the time to explain.

Vic: "But bottom line --... (Below threshold)

Vic: "But bottom line -- they're killing us in their quest for profits, and if they didn't kill us they would have zero profits."

Wow...you're nuts, ya know? But I'll play along...here's YOUR comment when we have Universal "Health"Care:
"But bottom line -- the Government is killing us in their quest to contain costs, and if they didn't kill us they would have to raise taxes again...and it's an election year!"

yup, that works!

"Let's make Obama fail" - t... (Below threshold)
Victory is Ours:

"Let's make Obama fail" - the right wing mantra - is costing American lives.

It's time to pass health care reform.


OBAMA pleads guilty to open... (Below threshold)

OBAMA pleads guilty to opening His mouth.

Low profit margins are the ... (Below threshold)
Victory is Ours:

Low profit margins are the result of huge overhead (approaching 30%), high executive salaries and perks and junkets.

Medicare operates on an overhead of 3%.

Helath Insurance companies are lousy are what they do - as evidenced by their 3-5% profit margins and 30% overhead.

It's time for reform. Enough Americans have died.


I want to vote for the guy ... (Below threshold)

I want to vote for the guy that laughed out loud!!

If so many people are dying... (Below threshold)
Dennis D:

If so many people are dying then why wait for 2013 to implement? Answer is partisan politics and election 2012. Dems place party of the lives of Americans,

This over complicated bloat... (Below threshold)

This over complicated bloated pile of paper is not the way to fix healthcare. It is a big vauge fill in the blanks mess.

The ONLY way I will support Health Care Reform is if all current plans are completely scapped and both sides work together to build something from the ground up.

This is nothing new. Obama claims everyone is lying. I say, read the bill. You will see who is lying.

BTW Barry. Nice job bringing up the deficit you inherited. (+5 points) I hope if we still have a country when you leave office your successor brings up your retarded fiscal policies at every turn.

Hey Dic, Medicare reimburse... (Below threshold)

Hey Dic, Medicare reimbursement rates dont even cover hospital costs many of the times. Private pays and insurance pays have to make up the medicare shortfall.

Since you are so concerned about americans dying, what exactly are you doing to stop the far left from murdering over a million innocent babies every year????

Hey Vic, I wonder if the in... (Below threshold)

Hey Vic, I wonder if the insurance comanies could run more efficiently if they weren't pulling up the slack from Medicare underpaying.

Vic, you make a claim. Now... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Vic, you make a claim. Now back it up. Name an American who died because he did not have health care insurance. Was the problem he could not get to an emergency room? You are a f-ing idiot and a liar.

What little I saw it seemed... (Below threshold)
retired military:

What little I saw it seemed Pelosi was doing her exercise routine again.

Unfort., what Vic and alot ... (Below threshold)

Unfort., what Vic and alot of liberals assume is that if we could just implement their vision of utopia we would have some kinda Gene Roddenberry version of a Star Trek Universe where everyone works for the greater good of all etc., The thing they always fail to realize is that humans ALWAYS seek out what is best for themselves. People, by their very nature do not work for the good of all. The Soviet Union, the great example of a pure communist system, had the party elite wanting for nothing, while the common citizen waited on line for rationed goods. Same thing here, our politicians both D and R, want for nothing while burdining the American people. Same thing will happen with gov't run health care, the elite will not suffer, while the ppl in the middle will be forced into rationing. Doctors and Nurses will NOT work for what a teacher makes, no matter how much society will benefit, and when there are no doctors and nurses to administer, what happens? We get rationing for the available resources

Throughout history Utopin movements have always failed simply b/c of the fact they never take into account the human condition. Some push and some ride, when the amount of riders is greater than number of pushers any enterprise is doomed to failure.

The government has done suc... (Below threshold)

The government has done such a great job with Social Security, let's put them in charge of healthcare! Perhaps the plan to fix Social Security is to raise the retirement age and lower the average life expectancy... two birds with one 'government option' stone!

Vic -- what do you think a ... (Below threshold)

Vic -- what do you think a big government bureaucracy will do when milliions of people are forced onto the public option? They will deny coverage of specific medical procedures and PEOPLE WILL DIE.

All we are doing is transferring several private insurance companies into one monopoly- the federal governement. They will have to ration care to pay for it or we will bankrupt this country. Why do you think medicare will be bankrupt within 10 years? Hello, pay attention to FACTS, not bullshit rhetoric from the Democratic party who wants to spend everything yet pay for nothing.

This speech was a disgrace and honestly a CYA move by Obama with his lunatic base. Have fun for the next year because Democrats will face exile the likes of which they have NEVER seen come 2010. Americans are scared to death of this insane agenda of Obama, Pelosi and Reid.

Where are all of the people... (Below threshold)
Sue in Ohio:

Where are all of the people whose claims are constantly being denied by the insurance companies? I can go down a long list of friends, relatives, and coworkers who have dealt with everything from cancer to hip & knee replacements to high-risk pregnancies and premature births in the last 10 years. I know at times they've gotten frustrated with some of the red tape and bureaucracy, but I honestly don't know of any cases where the insurance companies have flat-out refused to pay for the treatments that were needed.

Hey VIC!Open your ea... (Below threshold)

Hey VIC!
Open your ears please, because I'm going to make this perfectly clear and I'm only going to say it once, unlike your Obamassiah who repeats himself ad nauseaum.

WE ALL AGREE THAT HEALTH INSURANCE NEEDS REFORM! Leave the fucking government out of it as a supplier! Medicare will be BROKE by 2017 unless more tax dollars are shoveled in. Just like they prop up the Post Office and Amtrak every year. Can you understand that you freaking idiot? We don't need another mammoth government bureaucracy.

Vic. . . If Obama ... (Below threshold)

Vic. . .

If Obama can't get even his OWN party to vote for his bill when he has just about a supermajority, how the hell do you blame Republicans for making him fail? He seems to be doing a pretty good job of it all by his lonesome.

Hey Fan, I'm on... (Below threshold)

Hey Fan,

I'm only going to say this once. (he-he)

"Market solutions" is what we have now, and PROFIT is the driving engine of escalating costs. The free market has had its way for decades and look at the costs and what it has delivered.

Doctors in the U.S. waste about $95 billion each year fighting with insurance companies and filling out useless paperwork.

300-400 billion would be saved right off the top by reducing admin costs if we take the private insurance industry out of the health-care business.

With today's private insurance free market system many Americans have no choice because they can't afford the plans that allow for open Specialist selection.

The dispensation of medical care can never be set in a free market model because the highly variable nature of medical outcomes, the extremely unpredictable range and breadth of work-ups for disease diagnosis and the wide ranging costs for any given disease based on a multitude of idiosyncratic factors (patient age, associated illness, demands of the patient himself and the legitimate variations in physician approach)which nixes any business competition playing field.

Insurance companies have the most direct motive possible to deny you coverage. They make money that way. They lose money each time they cover you.

Medical care needs to return to a professional endeavor rather than a business of "test and drug ordering" service. What we have now is the justification of profligate ordering of frequently worthless though remunerative medical tests versus physician non-reimbursed face time with patients resulting in thoughtful case analysis. Right now there is an abuse of medical technology due to outrageous fees and lack of guidelines as to when testing is needed.

A for-profit health care system is not meant to deliver healthier people. It is meant to earn profits.

. .wait. . Indie. .youa re ... (Below threshold)

. .wait. . Indie. .youa re SERIOUSLY arguing that putting the government in charge of health care will REDUCE paperwork? Is that stuff your smoking REALLY good?

If you have issues with den... (Below threshold)

If you have issues with denial of coverage, then allow for the creation of an intra-industry appeals board, which will review high-priority (life and death) situations, and render unbiased decisions. No patient will be identified, only the diagnosis, the patient history, and the description of policy benefits. It can consist of a rotating membership of physicians, recommended by the State Insurance Commission and State AMA, so that no member can be accused of being in the 'back pocket' of insurance companies.

VIC,Health insurance... (Below threshold)

Health insurance is available from private companies who draw a profit but they are one of the most highly regulated private businesses in the country. Please feel free to educate yourself further at Charlie Q's thread (the second below from this one) on how coverage is regulated state by state. These health insurance companies are not exactly freewheelin' it out there. And I would also ask for your specifics on where denial of payment has resulted in death.

Insurance companies also ar... (Below threshold)

Insurance companies also are mandated by the States to cover a variety of things which suited the politicians' purposes; such as some states require insurance policies to cover acupunture, chiropractors, narapaths, and I believe even aromatherapy. The State of Illinois even had latrille as a mandated therapy, primarily because it was once touted as the 'cure' for cancer.

I also want to seriously he... (Below threshold)

I also want to seriously hear him name all the instances where introducing government into something previously controlled by private industry has REDUCED red tape and innefficiency.

Where? The post office?

(Not to spam, but there is ... (Below threshold)

(Not to spam, but there is no edit function)

A thousand page bill to reform health care is a defacto proof in and of itself of the unlikelyhood of government control somehow magically improviong efficiency in ways OTHER than pretending that things don't actually cost what they do.

Vic -Please explai... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Vic -

Please explain this: The US has the highest, bar none, rate of cancer survival in the world. Every single one of your beloved socialized medicine Utopias has crap for survival by comparison. For men the US is a full 6% better than the next country.

So please explain how it is that "People are dying so the insurance companies can make a profit!"

You're an ass. Maybe the reality is that in other nations people are dying so their governments can remain solvent long enough to get re-elected.

Consider this next- The US has a population of a little over 300 million. with 47 million uninsured that is over 10% of he population uninsured. According to your reasoning these uninsured get NO medical care.

Assume or argument's sake that this 10% uninsured is equally divided male and female. If the US has a prostate cancer survival rate of over 92% (which it does) how is it that such thing is possible? Somehow these uninsured people must be stealing health care from the rest of us. Now explain to me why it is that the UK has a prostate survival rate of around 72%. They have socialized medicine so everyone is covered.

Why is it the ideologues like you cannot see the plain facts that even with the deficiencies of our health care system we manage to treat more people more effectively and actually cure more people than any other nation on earth.

Please explain why it is that you would want to alter his system and make it more like the health care systems that are failing their people. Please explain why it is that when it is tried here that somehow a miracle will occur and it will actually work here when it has failed everywhere else.

Ryan, FACT:Medicare ... (Below threshold)

FACT:Medicare is cheaper to administer than private health insurance - a comparison of 2-3% overhead for Medicare, to 17% for private health insurance.

"a comparison of 2-3% overh... (Below threshold)

"a comparison of 2-3% overhead for Medicare, to 17% for private health insurance."

Yeah? Break out your numbers. Because that's bullshit!

"Please explain this: The U... (Below threshold)

"Please explain this: The US has the highest, bar none, rate of cancer survival in the world. Every single one of your beloved socialized medicine Utopias has crap for survival by comparison. For men the US is a full 6% better than the next country."

Because Americans die sooner from something else?

Slightly O/T: Is there a n... (Below threshold)

Slightly O/T: Is there a new program in the Teleprompter which allows for emoticons? Several times Barry looked like he was getting all misty eyed. Almost on cue. Can we expect more of this at the next EMERGENCY! congressional get-together and circle jerk?

And why was Biden continually looking down at his hands in his lap? And why was Nancy looking there as well?

Indie, private enterprise i... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Indie, private enterprise is responsible for all ot the goods and services you ever enjoyed. This is unless you lived in Russia. Even if your were sucking a government tit, you cannot be stupid enough to not recognize if not for private enterprise, the money to feed your sorry ass would not flow to the blood sucking democrats to buy your vote by way of taxes. Names something government produces other than public debt.

Indie,And Medicare... (Below threshold)


And Medicare doesn't pay full price for ANYTHING forcing hospitals and physicians to make up the costs somehow (read: over charging the rest).

Fix Medicare, make it self sustaining the way Obama asked, then offer it to everyone once its fixed with its current enrollment.

The look on Nancy's face is... (Below threshold)
Yes, Indie. SOmething is c... (Below threshold)

Yes, Indie. SOmething is cheaper to run when you rob the doctors and the medical equipment providers and the drug companies and don't pay them what their products are worth.

It also leads to doctors quitting or leaving for greener pastures. Ask Canada or the UK sometime.

Every single day that real ... (Below threshold)
Marcel Lavabre:

Every single day that real health care reform that provides true universal coverage is being postponed:
• 5.5 billion are spent in health care. 2 billion of this money is wasted in inefficiency, with 500 million dollars wasted on unnecessary administrative expenses alone. On top of that, another 500 million dollars or more are wasted on direct or indirect cost of malpractice lawsuits, malpractice insurance and the practice of defensive medicine to avoid them.
• Close to 100,000 people are denied coverage from their insurance for pre-existing conditions
• Tens of thousands of people are dropped by their insurance because
o They have a catastrophic illness
o They lost their job and cannot afford COBRA - which only last 18 months anyway
o They were covered by their spouses and got divorced
o They have reached their yearly limits or their lifetime limits
o Any other reason fomented by the very creative minds of the health insurance industry
• 1,836 people file for bankruptcy because of health bills they cannot afford; out of these, 1,432 actually have so called "health insurance"
• 50 people actually die, put to death by health's insurance death panels
It's all in your hands. You could be next. Do you want to be a statistic? Are you gone fall for the health insurance propaganda and be a proxy fighter for their executives and shareholders? Or are you use your best judgment and stand up to defend your best interests?
The death panels from the health insurance industry are a shame and an abomination and they must be abolished. We cannot let the insurance lobby win again.
In 1993, the health insurance industry was given a chance to reform itself. Since then, health insurance premiums more than doubled and so did the number of uninsured. We cannot let that happen again. At 17% of GDP, health care costs are bankrupting the economy. Without real reform, it will get even worse.
The opponents of public health care (as if Medicare/Medicaid and VA - that these same opponents defend so furiously - were not public) should be consistent with themselves and ask for private firefighters (good luck Scottsdale or Los Angeles suburbs), private police and private army (Atwater anyone?).
Advocates of health care reform must also push for comprehensive tort reform to reign in the malpractice direct and indirect costs.
Only universal health insurance with a public option and true tort reform will reign in the out of control health insurance cartel! A comprehensive tort reform will put out of business the ambulance chasers. Act now!

Yes: We die earlier of ove... (Below threshold)

Yes: We die earlier of overeating and SMoking. ANd car accidents.
ANd GUn fatalities. None of which are symptoms of our health care system but of our lifestyle choices.

Garandfan: SOmehow he thin... (Below threshold)

Garandfan: SOmehow he thinks that the fact that healthcare makes up 17% of the economy is the same as its overhead, proving he hasn't even the slightest concept of what the terms he is tossing around actually MEAN.

MArcel -"It's a... (Below threshold)

MArcel -

"It's all in your hands. You could be next. Do you want to be a statistic? Are you gone fall for the health insurance propaganda and be a proxy fighter for their executives and shareholders? Or are you use your best judgment and stand up to defend your best interests?"

Somehow I simply don't believe YOU have MY best interests in mind - any more than the guy going door to door selling old folks a 'new roof' that turns out to be cheap-ass shingles for an incredibly high price has their welfare in mind as he leaves with the job half-done but fully paid for.

Or the used car salesman who'll be your best friend until you drive that overpriced lemon off the lot - and won't know you at all when you come back with a 'warranty' covered problem which (amazingly enough) won't ACTUALLY be covered!

I love how you're trying to push all the rhetorical buttons, though. "It's all in your hands!" "You could be next!" "Do you want to be a statistic!" It'd almost be laughable - if it weren't complete fucking proof you're actually trying to sell a scam and you don't want people to look closely at all at what you're trying to get us to buy.

"And why was Biden conti... (Below threshold)

"And why was Biden continually looking down at his hands in his lap? And why was Nancy looking there as well?"

Nancy was looking in Biden's lap? Damn - doesn't the guy know better than to play with his trouser trout while the Teleprompter is speaking?

First off, anyone who think... (Below threshold)

First off, anyone who thinks the current health insurance industry is a good example of "free market" is smoking the good ganja.

Secondly, this whole "debate" smacks a bit too much of the "OMG WTF DO WE DO ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING/CLIMATE CHANGE/WHAT ARE WE CALLING IT THIS MONTH?!!?" debate -- in that "the debate is over". The inherent dishonesty in those continuing to propagate the logical fallacy that "the current system is broken, therefore the government must fix it" is frankly starting to piss me off. Is the current system jacked up? Hell yes. Is the only viable solution MOAR GOVERNMENTZ!??! Only in Madame Shrieker's dreams.

Thirdly, lest the shrill hand-wringing of "well...well... where's YOUR better idea, Mr Smartypants!" start: this is the sort of alternative that I'd like to see afforded a seat at this (apparently faux) debate.

Fourthly, should The One manage to create the appearance of acceptance of His magical Snake Oil long enough for the wavering Democrats to toe the line and pass this, it marks the beginning of the final phase of existence of this latest version of the United States of America. I will not tolerate the level of government intrusion into my life that The One's plan outlines, and I suspect there are millions of other Americans who would stand alongside me.

And finally, a quote from a man far more eloquent than I that best summarizes my attitude towards The One and his ilk -- as well as my attitude towards my admittedly well-intentioned countrymen who are enabling these usurpations of the few remaining fragments of our founding fathers' vision:

If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us
in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down
and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon
you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.

- Samuel Adams

"Advocates of health care r... (Below threshold)

"Advocates of health care reform must also push for comprehensive tort reform to reign in the malpractice direct and indirect costs."

Obviously you did not hear the reply of the famous Dr. Howard Dean, former head of the DNC when quetioned as to why tort reform was not in HR3200. "Ain't going to happen. We have a big enough fight without taking on lawyers"

TRANSLATION: The trail lawyers of this country give BIG MONEY to the DNC every year. We're not going to cut off their bread and butter.

To go back up, somehow the ... (Below threshold)

To go back up, somehow the guy seems to think that private medicine has high OVERHEAD because they are for profit. . when overhead is defined as. .

In business, overhead, overhead cost or overhead expense refers to an ongoing expense of operating a business (also known as Operating Expenses - rent, gas/electricity, wages etc). The term overhead is usually used to group expenses that are necessary to the continued functioning of the business, but do not directly generate profits.

"Overhead expenses are all costs on the income statement except for direct labor and direct materials. Overhead expenses include accounting fees, advertising, depreciation, insurance, interest, legal fees, rent, repairs, supplies, taxes, telephone bills, travel and utilities costs."

Yes, its quite possible to lower prices when you can pay for all of those things below their real value 'cuz you're the gov'ment and you gots the guns! Of course, the people you are stealing from to do that are screwed, but hey, who cares about them?

Also: Regarding cancer rate... (Below threshold)

Also: Regarding cancer rate survival: SInce that is surviving cancer POST diagnosis, what other things we might die of are completely irrelevant to the question,

Hard to believe libs are as... (Below threshold)

Hard to believe libs are as ignorant of facts and reality as they are, but, then I look, and see who they elected, who they support. Now, I believe!

The speech is over--thankfu... (Below threshold)

The speech is over--thankfully. That nincompoop has verbal diarrhea! barry is continuing his partisan attacks on the American people. For doing that he will lose, and America will be better for it.

FACT:Medicare is cheaper... (Below threshold)

FACT:Medicare is cheaper to administer than private health insurance - a comparison of 2-3% overhead for Medicare, to 17% for private health insurance.

So cheap is it to administer that it carries $75 trillion (yes, that's a 'T') in unfunded liabilities.

The US is already bankrupt.

Best speech by a black repa... (Below threshold)

Best speech by a black reparations, cracker-
conscious, race-baiting, bottom-feeding liberal
I have EVER heard! He hit "it" out of the
park. I just checked out MSNBC and CNN and
they agree. So what's the prob? New bill by
Friday with overwhelming public support.....
guaranteeeeeeeeed! Pelosi "Wet Teeshirt"
contest at Loco Lobbyists on K-Street at
midnight, tonight. Be there!

Barry's in a groove....prob... (Below threshold)

Barry's in a groove....problem is, he can't
get out of it, even with MSM pixie dust being
spread by the ton. Six months ago this
clown could have sold America on meatless
burgers, sans bun. Today, seniors are re-
prising "where's the beef?" His concession
is, "you can have the bun" but "I draw the
line on meat, pickles, ketchup, lettuce
and any "secret sauce" that Michelle and I
deem is a capitalistic sop to the prole-
tariat."Wagyu beef, at White House dinners,
can never be served to the voters. There
just isn't enough to go around.

I heard this Argument in a ... (Below threshold)

I heard this Argument in a movie about how Cheep Medicare is to operate, he was singing Socialize it.

The 3% overhead that is claimed is because Medicare passes it paper work off to Doctors and other insurance companies which of course cost everyone more time and adds to the overhead of the Insurance companies, hospital and doctors.

You people are pathetic but... (Below threshold)

You people are pathetic but fortunately your ignorance is exposed by others on my side who actually know how to read.

Don't link that crap to Wizbang

I'm curious as to how this ... (Below threshold)

I'm curious as to how this reform will be paid for, for starters. Also, how illegals will supposedly not be covered?
I'm also curious as to how Obama plans to prevent the problems countries with universal healthcare have: denying treatment for those deemed "not worth" saving, huge wait times for basic services, lack of medical equipment, lack of personnel, less drug options for more "experimental" condition treatments, lotteries to get a family doctor, etc... etc... Hearing Obama say, "Oh no, those things won't happen!" isn't cutting it for me and my family.

Indie wrote:FAC... (Below threshold)

Indie wrote:

FACT:Medicare is cheaper to administer than private health insurance - a comparison of 2-3% overhead for Medicare, to 17% for private health insurance.

Please include a source for this assertion. Even if it is correct, you are talking about a system (Medicare) in which, according to Obama, there are "hundreds of billions of dollars" in "waste and fraud." The "2-3%" in overhead costs is meaningless when the system is paying "hundreds of billions" in invalid claims.

<a href="http://www.cbo.gov... (Below threshold)


Medicare will spend 1.7% for Administartion in the year that it cost 939 Billion to run and is negative by -137%.

Now if any Business Plan showed that to a Venture Capitalist or Board member they would be up in arms because it is Unsustainable .
Now this is without 500 Billion be taken away from Medicare and the annual premiums increasing by 20%.

Ryan - here's a bit of educ... (Below threshold)

Ryan - here's a bit of education on 'government overhead'. To them, overhead is only DIRECT costs. NOTHING ELSE is factored in. Now compare that to what an actual business considers 'overhead'. It's an odd thing about a business; they have to make a profit in order to remain viable. The government just raises rates or taxes. Don't believe it? Check out the US Post Office or AmTrak. Those are really good examples of 'government run' businesses.

Hey, you don't need to educ... (Below threshold)

Hey, you don't need to educate ME on overhead. I'm not the one making the claims about the government being somehow more 'efficient'. INdie is.

I still am trying to wrap my mind around how someone's mind coudl be so warped as to consider the government running something an improvement in efficiency over ANYTHING>






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