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The problem with Islam...

... at its core would seem to be Islam's problem with women:

Do some of the answers to the puzzle of that woman-hatred lie in Koranic passages and sayings like these?

The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and found poor people forming the majority of its inhabitants; and I looked at Hell and saw that the majority of its inhabitants were women."

O ye who believe! When ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.

Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."

The answer is yes.

And the answer is obvious for those willing to see.

Rachel Adams goes on to suggest that which might work toward a solution for men and women in the military serving in places like Afghanistan:

If through the good offices of our military--especially our women soldiers--we could help Afghani women unravel themselves from centuries of complicity in their own oppression and see themselves not as defiled, unclean, perpetually wanton creatures to be hidden away as if they were carriers of plague, but rather as noble members of the human race endowed with greatness and blessings: the giving of life, the tending to it mercifully and lovingly, and, most important, the imparting of lessons in real virtue--self-acceptance to their daughters and just plain acceptance to their sons--that would be gaining hearts and minds indeed.

You'd think that women's groups who claim to be for the advancement of women's rights would be all over this... but you'd be wrong.  

We've been reminded this week what it is that these groups seek to advance.

I'm of the opinion that the best way women might "unravel themselves from centuries of complicity in their own oppression and see themselves not as defiled, unclean, perpetually wanton creatures to be hidden away as if they were carriers of plague" is to expose them to the teachings and the uniqueness of Jesus Christ.

How intolerant of me.

H/T W&W.



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Comments (21)

With the exception of Jesus... (Below threshold)

With the exception of Jesus' unusual quote ("it is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs") that appears in Matthew 15 and Mark 7, the New Testament is stunningly progressive for an ancient text in its positive treatment of women. The Koran seems to be much more in line with the traditional thinking of the day.

IMHO, this is a pretty clear sign indicating which work is truly divinely inspired, and which one is not.

Michael, you neglect to men... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Michael, you neglect to mention that the quote you cite above really has nothing to do with women. The metaphor of the dog refers to the woman being a Canaanite and the Children of the metaphor are Israel.

Islam alone of the world's religions has spread primarily through conquest and force of violence.

In my opinion, libs are soft on muslims because they hate the US and what it stands for. Libs will make common cause with anyone who hates the US.

I've asked this question be... (Below threshold)

I've asked this question before and I'll ask it again:

Why do you think it is that when Islamic fundamentalists take over any area the first thing they do is subjugate the women and drape them in burkas?

"Islam alone among the worl... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

"Islam alone among the world's religions has spread primarily through conquest and force of violence."

Wow, I did not know that Christianity was the dominant religion in North America, South America, Australia and New Zealand before the arrival of the European conquerors. Thanks, Jim!

It's about 1400 years since the founding of Islam. How were women treated in 1400AD in Europe? There has been no "Enlightenment" period in Islam as there was in the West. Not yet. Kemal Ataturk tried to force one in the 1920s, with limited success, but barbaric practices persist. It's unfortunate, but given our history, the West should hesitate to adopt an air of superiority.

The problem with islam is t... (Below threshold)
Michael K:

The problem with islam is their cult founder Mohammad believes 9 year old girls are sexual beings.

Islam alone of the world... (Below threshold)

Islam alone of the world's religions has spread primarily through conquest and force of violence. jim m

Not so true, when the Spanish and Portugese conquered the New World they pretty much forced the native populations to convert through coercion and force of arms.

History is rife with ppl committing atrocities in the name of religious ideology, Islam doesn't have the market cornered on that.

I think the major difference is that Islam has become more of a political movement, with it's desire to establish an oligarchial form of government and it is that desire that directly conflicts with our love of freedom and the Republic. Any country with a large Muslim population is following the same pattern. Violence directed at the established government in order to bring about a "religious" based government based on the so-called tenets of the religion....thus a "political" movement.

Christ did indeed raise the... (Below threshold)

Christ did indeed raise the status of woman. For instance: His love and respect for his mother, his forgiveness and compassiate toward the woman who was to be stoned, and how he wanted woman to listen to his sermons if they so choose instead of tending to the cleaning and cooking. (there is something in the bible about one woman wanting to be with him instead of with the other woman doing the chores-he scolded the other women for degrading her because of it)

Islam was founded by one sick puppy who hated and yet desired woman/young female children.

Sorry, this is one "faith" I hate no tolerance for. And screw anyone who is insulted.

Deke and Bruce-Rea... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Deke and Bruce-

Really? Really?

Forced conversions by Catholic missionaries? Convert or face immediate death? I had no idea. Please show me your citations so I can expand my knowledge.

I never knew that Catholicism spread through South America by forced conversion, murder, and the abduction and rape of the native women!

Who knew!


Yes colonial nations brough... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Yes colonial nations brought Christianity with them. There is a difference, however, in using missionaries to promote your religion and using murder and rape as tools of conversion. In how many Christian colonial states was anything like the Jizya enforced?

To call the two equivalent shows a remarkable ignorance of history.

And there is a difference i... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

And there is a difference in using missionaries to promote your religion, on the one hand, and exterminating virtually entire indigenous populations on the other.

Don't give me that "ignorance of history" crap. You're the one who said that only Islam had been spread through conquest. There are about half a billion Christians in the countries I mentioned that weren't there BEFORE the conquest. Do you think all the Native Americans would have converted if the Europeans had sent ONLY missionaries, not conquistadors? Who's ignorant?

As to your "who knew" snark, you may be the only one who didn't know, Jim. Do you imagine there WERE no forced conversions? That no one was murdered by conquistadors in the name of Christ? That native women weren't abducted and raped? Again, who's ignorant?

Ever hear of a guy named Atahualpa, Jim?

The "problem with Islam" is... (Below threshold)

The "problem with Islam" is its creator. Muhammed was a power hungry, greedy pedophile with the morals of a goat. He invented a "religion" purely for self interest, making his followers believe it was Gods will that they kill anyone who stood in their way, steal all of their stuff and sell their families into slavery. Notice that Allah did NOT demand a vow of poverty, 15 hours of daily prayer and outlaw theft, murder, marriage with 5 year olds, etc. Imagine Charles Manson sitting down and dreaming up a religion!

There is a vast difference ... (Below threshold)

There is a vast difference between the pure tenets of a religion and how the followers use those tenets.
I am not that knowledgable about Islam, but if the above quote is true, this is a tenent of the religion.
I am knowlegable of Christianity and it teaches love of God, love of neighbor, love of all others (not acceptance - the error some have when dealing with other religions, but love, because we all are creatures created by God).
There is just no comparison.

Bruce,the executio... (Below threshold)
jim m:


the execution (call it murder if you like) of a conquered leader is not unique to Europe nor would I Characterize his execution as the norm meted out to the mass population.

If you recall we weren't saying that Europeans didn't conquer foreign lands through force of arms. And I am well aware of the bloody history in the Americas and elsewhere.

We were talking about faith and conversion. Forced conversion on pain of death was not the routine anywhere in the Christian world. Show me routine, not the exception of 1 tribal leader. Europeans did not conquer foreign lands and turn the entire population into slaves (except maybe imperial Rome, but then that predates Christianity). Muslims are still doing it today in Sudan and elsewhere:

Pace the author of 'The Legacy of Jihad: Islamic Holy War and the Fate of Non-Muslims'(emphasis mine):

Forced conversions in Islamic history are not exceptional--they have been the norm, across three continents--Asia, Africa, and Europe--for over 13 centuries. Orders for conversion were decreed under all the early Islamic dynasties--Umayyads, Abbasids, Fatimids, and Mamluks. Additional extensive examples of forced conversion were recorded under both Seljuk and Ottoman Turkish rule (the latter until its collapse in the 20th century), the Shi'ite Safavid and Qajar dynasties of Persia/Iran, and during the jihad ravages on the Indian subcontinent, beginning with the early 11th century campaigns of Mahmud of Ghazni, and recurring under the Delhi Sultanate, and Moghul dynasty until the collapse of Muslim suzerainty in the 18th century following the British conquest of India.

Moreover, during jihad--even the jihad campaigns of the 20th century [i.e., the jihad genocide of the Armenians during World War I, the Moplah jihad in Southern India [1921], the jihad against the Assyrians of Iraq [early 1930s], the jihads against the Chinese of Indonesia and the Christian Ibo of southern Nigeria in the 1960s, and the jihad against the Christians and Animists of the southern Sudan from 1983 to 2001], the (dubious) concept of "no compulsion" (Koran 2:256), has always been meaningless. A consistent practice was to enslave populations taken from outside the boundaries of the "Dar al Islam", where Islamic rule (and Law) prevailed. Inevitably fresh non-Muslim slaves, including children, were Islamized within a generation, their ethnic and linguistic origins erased. Two enduring and important mechanisms for this conversion were concubinage and the slave militias--practices still evident in the contemporary jihad waged by the Arab Muslim Khartoum government against the southern Sudanese Christians and Animists. And Julia Duin reported in early 2002 that murderous jihad terror campaigns--including, prominently, forced conversions to Islam--continued to be waged against the Christians of Indonesia's Moluccan Islands.
- Andrew G. Bostom

"Why do you think it is tha... (Below threshold)

"Why do you think it is that when Islamic fundamentalists take over any area the first thing they do is subjugate the women and drape them in burkas?"
3. Posted by Oyster

According to Scripture, Woman must keep her alluring hair covered so as not to be raped by the Nephelim (fallen angels or their mutant offspring) nor to be seduced by the Sons of Cain, children of Eve and Lucifer, who spread all over the world--thus Arranged Marriages.

It's about 1400 ye... (Below threshold)
Brett Buck:
It's about 1400 years since the founding of Islam. How were women treated in 1400AD in Europe? There has been no "Enlightenment" period in Islam as there was in the West. Not yet. Kemal Ataturk tried to force one in the 1920s, with limited success, but barbaric practices persist. It's unfortunate, but given our history, the West should hesitate to adopt an air of superiority.

Fucking bullcrap. You are right, there has been no enlightenment in Islam. Christianity went through a less-than-laudable stage. It was corrected hundreds of years ago.

How does that in way excuse their actions? If it were the year 1300, you might have a point. But are we supposed to tolerate it, "be understanding" about it, here in the 21st century? The Western world and society IS superior, and this is a sterling example of why. Quick estimate, we are about 500 years ahead. Should we just sit around and wait to see if they come to their senses?

You are veering dangerously close to the "boys will be boys" defense. We can't afford to treat ANY group that goes around murdering people, repressing half their population in the most brutal ways possible, etc, like rambunctious teenagers, and hope they "grow out of it" as a religion. That's the worst kind of appeasement. This moral equivalence garbage has fostered this stuff for the last 30-40 years. It is absolutely correct and proper to make value judgements and find these scumbags wanting.

"given our history, the Wes... (Below threshold)
jim m:

"given our history, the West should hesitate to adopt an air of superiority."

By that argument parents have no business instructing their children how to behave.

I'm not suggesting that muslims are children, but it is an apt analogy.

The left's refusal to make value distinctions is foolish in the extreme. If you cannot make some kind of judgment, whether form an objective or purely subjective basis, you cannot sustain any argument as to why the islamic jihadist is wrong. Murdering people to get your way is simply a life style choice. That is the end result of liberal relativism.

Of course you are free to f... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Of course you are free to feel that your religion is superior to others, Brett. Go for it.

Didn"t mean to imply "boys will be boys," either. But you display exactly what Jim accused me of, Brett, when you say that Christianity "went through a less than laudable stage" that was "corrected hundreds of years ago."

It was partly as result of the arrogance of Christians "assuming the White Man's Burden" that the whole scramble for Africa and the imperialism and colonial movements of the late 19th Century came about. Including the Zionist movement, in which it was assumed that the enlightened, Europeanized Jews would settle Palestine and simply push the indigenous inhabitants aside, as had been done in North America, Australia, and South Africa. "A land without a people, for a people without a land" was the slogan - ignoring the fact that there WERE people on the land!

The conflict between the Western sense of superiority and the Muslim sense of wounded pride and resentment has caused many of the conflicts we have today. And we were making progress, too, until 9/11.

See, that's another thing terrorists are good at - destroying progress. Think about it: every time you get the feeling that "peace is at hand" there's another spectacular suicide bombing. It's done to create more anger and distrust, and ignorant people (I'm looking at you, Brett) play right into the hands of the haters.

And Jim, if you don't think forced conversions were indeed routine, I suggest you look up "Spanish Inquisition" (which wasn't about witches but converting Jews and Muslims), "converso", "Albigensian Crusade", "Teutonic Knights", and "Spanish conquest of the Phillipines," among many other instances.

And if Islamic forced conversions were the unchanging rule, why do so many Jews, Christians, Azizis, Druze, Zoroastrians, and Sikhs live today in the Islamic world?

I suggest both of you guys get out of the Islamophobia section of your local Christian bookstore and get to the library. Check out "Destiny Disturbed" by Ansary and maybe a couple of books by Karen Armstrong to get started. Then go from there.

I snipped most of your driv... (Below threshold)
Brett Buck:

I snipped most of your drivel, but...

The conflict between the Western sense of superiority and the Muslim sense of wounded pride and resentment has caused many of the conflicts we have today. And we were making progress, too, until 9/11

Your devastating insults have wounded MY pride, too. Does that mean it's OK to go around murdering people to, you know, comfort myself? Of course not. The mere fact that you consider hurt feelings to be, even in a small part, to be some sort of justification for these borderline insane actions just proves any point I might make about your premise.

Your reasoning sounds like a 5-year-old caught fighting on a playground - "he said I was stupid so I hit him". Except it's really "you said I was barbaric, so I flew an airplane into your building".

If the Islamic terrorist world wants to feel like equals in the world, and not be treated like second-rate citizens and misbehaving children with deadly weapons, they probably ought to consider stop acting like that.

The only people responsible for the barbaric behavior are the people acting barbarically. Wounding their pride is not an acceptable excuse.

See, that's another thing terrorists are good at - destroying progress. Think about it: every time you get the feeling that "peace is at hand" there's another spectacular suicide bombing. It's done to create more anger and distrust, and ignorant people (I'm looking at you, Brett) play right into the hands of the haters.

Oh, wounded to the quick! That one really hits close to home.

That's one outstanding observation you make there. You are absolutely correct - every time we appear to have negotiated an end to the senseless butchery, these people piss it away by another act of senseless butchery, and we are back to square one, or even worse. It's happened over and over with the Israelis and the Palestinians. Spot on point. Maybe there is hope for you yet.

The logical conclusion to be drawn from this observation is that it is a waste of time to negotiate peace with them, since they have shown time and again by their own actions that they don't want peace. At this point it has been demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt.

Of course they want to sow fear and distrust. And for my money, being willing to blow up busloads of schoolchildren because your wittle feelings have been hurt is an awfully good reason to distrust someone.

So we are left with a limited set of options. Peace (on anything but their own completely unacceptable terms) is out of the question for the reasons you so eloquently point out. So what, then? Seem our options are in two broad categories - either just accept the fact that every so often a Marine barracks will explode, or an airplane will be hijacked, and take that as an acceptable loss and hope they outgrow it - or fight back and try to stop them.

Presuming that no one in their right mind would accept the former (John Kerry notwithstanding), it now boils down to a matter of how to most effectively fight them. That doesn't mean sending in wave after wave of social workers to help them work through their angst at being disrespected on the world stage, it means slinging lead.

I suggest both of you guys get out of the Islamophobia section of your local Christian bookstore and get to the library.

You have no concept what my religious beliefs might be. You don't know if I even have any religious beliefs. I made it a point to refer to Western Civilization vice Christianity per se aside from a rebuttal to you. There was a very good reason for that.

If your point is that I fear and want to confront and stop the lunatics that assert hourly that they want to kill me and everyone I know, and destroy the civilization I live in and have spent the last 30 years actively defending, I guess I have to plead guilty. I feel no need to apologize.

What sort of moron wouldn't want to oppose that? Oops, sorry, I guess you have already answered that question.

Of course that only applies to the Islamic people (or anyone else) who actively want to kill me, destroy civilization etc. Those that don't will presumably join us in putting a stop to it. But I am sure that this point will be lost in your wan attempt to smear me with a broad-brush accusation of racism.

Matthew 10:34Think n... (Below threshold)

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Luke 12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

The image of Eve as temptre... (Below threshold)

The image of Eve as temptress in the Bible has resulted in an extremely negative impact on women throughout the Judaeo-Christian tradition. All women were believed to have inherited from their mother, the Biblical Eve, both her guilt and her guile. Consequently, they were all untrustworthy, morally inferior, and wicked. Menstruation, pregnancy, and childbearing were considered the just punishment for the eternal guilt of the cursed female sex. In order to appreciate how negative the impact of the Biblical Eve was on all her female descendants we have to look at the writings of some of the most important Jews and Christians of all time. Let us start with the Old Testament and look at excerpts from what is called the Wisdom Literature in which we find:

"I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare....while I was still searching but not finding, I found one upright man among a thousand but not one upright woman among them all" (Ecclesiastes 7:26-28).

In another part of the Hebrew literature which is found in the Catholic Bible we read:

"No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman.....Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" (Ecclesiasticus 25:19,24).

Jewish Rabbis listed nine curses inflicted on women as a result of the Fall:

"To the woman He gave nine curses and death: the burden of the blood of menstruation and the blood of virginity; the burden of pregnancy; the burden of childbirth; the burden of bringing up the children; her head is covered as one in mourning; she pierces her ear like a permanent slave or slave girl who serves her master; she is not to be believed as a witness; and after everything--death." 2

To the present day, orthodox Jewish men in their daily morning prayer recite "Blessed be God King of the universe that Thou has not made me a woman." The women, on the other hand, thank God every morning for "making me according to Thy will." 3 Another prayer found in many Jewish prayer books: "Praised be God that he has not created me a gentile. Praised be God that he has not created me a woman. Praised be God that he has not created me an ignoramus." 4

The Biblical Eve has played a far bigger role in Christianity than in Judaism. Her sin has been pivotal to the whole Christian faith because the Christian conception of the reason for the mission of Jesus Christ on Earth stems from Eve's disobedience to God. She had sinned and then seduced Adam to follow her suit. Consequently, God expelled both of them from Heaven to Earth, which had been cursed because of them. They bequeathed their sin, which had not been forgiven by God, to all their descendants and, thus, all humans are born in sin. In order to purify human beings from their 'original sin', God had to sacrifice Jesus, who is considered to be the Son of God, on the cross. Therefore, Eve is responsible for her own mistake, her husband's sin, the original sin of all humanity, and the death of the Son of God. In other words, one woman acting on her own caused the fall of humanity. 5 What about her daughters? They are sinners like her and have to be treated as such. Listen to the severe tone of St. Paul in the New Testament:

"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I don't permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner" (I Timothy 2:11-14).

St. Tertullian was even more blunt than St. Paul, while he was talking to his 'best beloved sisters' in the faith, he said: 6

"Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the Devil's gateway: You are the unsealer of the forbidden tree: You are the first deserter of the divine law: You are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image, man. On account of your desert even the Son of God had to die."

St. Augustine was faithful to the legacy of his predecessors, he wrote to a friend:

"What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman......I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children."

Centuries later, St. Thomas Aquinas still considered women as defective:

"As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence."

Finally, the renowned reformer Martin Luther could not see any benefit from a woman but bringing into the world as many children as possible regardless of any side effects:

"If they become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth, that's why they are there"

Again and again all women are denigrated because of the image of Eve the temptress, thanks to the Genesis account. To sum up, the Judaeo-Christian conception of women has been poisoned by the belief in the sinful nature of Eve and her female offspring.

If we now turn our attention to what the Quran has to say about women, we will soon realize that the Islamic conception of women is radically different from the Judaeo-Christian one. Let the Quran speak for itself:

"For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise-- For them all has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward" (33:35).

"The believers, men and women, are protectors, one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil, they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His Mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise" (9:71).

"And their Lord answered them: Truly I will never cause to be lost the work of any of you, Be you a male or female, you are members one of another" (3:195).

"Whoever works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof, and whoever works a righteous deed -whether man or woman- and is a believer- such will enter the Garden of bliss" (40:40).

"Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has faith, verily to him/her we will give a new life that is good and pure, and we will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions" (16:97).

It is clear that the Quranic view of women is no different than that of men. They, both, are God's creatures whose sublime goal on earth is to worship their Lord, do righteous deeds, and avoid evil and they, both, will be assessed accordingly. The Quran never mentions that the woman is the devil's gateway or that she is a deceiver by nature. The Quran, also, never mentions that man is God's image; all men and all women are his creatures, that is all. According to the Quran, a woman's role on earth is not limited only to childbirth. She is required to do as many good deeds as any other man is required to do. The Quran never says that no upright women have ever existed. To the contrary, the Quran has instructed all the believers, women as well as men, to follow the example of those ideal women such as the Virgin Mary and the Pharoah's wife:

"And Allah sets forth, As an example to those who believe, the wife of Pharaoh: Behold she said: 'O my lord build for me, in nearness to you, a mansion in the Garden, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings and save me from those who do wrong.' And Mary the daughter of Imran who guarded her chastity and We breathed into her body of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His revelations and was one of the devout" (66:11-13).

Brett, you have a very good... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Brett, you have a very good point. I didn't intend to make excuses for suicide bombers, but merely to urge you to read a little more widely. Excuse the snark.

The tone of your comments suggested to me that you had not heard much of the other side of the issue, and had simply absorbed the anti-Islamic obsession of Mark Steyn and other bigots. And I conflated your position with that of the profoundly historical-knowledge-deficient Jim M. Apologise for that.

I still recommend the books I mentioned, among others, including, "The Closing of the Western Mind."






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