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It shouldn't be like this

When Kevin brought us new guys on board, the idea was we would post about breaking and current news items which would free up more time for the old guard to write the longer, editorial posts. With apologies to Kevin I'm going to make a post with no external links and editorialize a little on my own.

I haven't posted much lately because I lacked the motivation. Despite the polling and the hope expressed by many opposed to Obamacare, I knew it was going to pass anyway. Socialization of health care has been a dream for those on the left for multiple generations. Polls come and go. Power in Congress shifts, albeit at a slower pace. But this was a chance at a lifelong liberal dream that those in power could not pass up, regardless of the consequences.

The problem I face now is that I am angry. My reaction to the vote yesterday is an emotional one. I'm not normally like this. This may come as somewhat of a shock about a person who like to blog politically when given the chance, but I'm actually not a big fan of politics. I hate the us vs. them mentality that the two-party system breeds. When people refer to the other side as "Rethuglicans" or "Libtards" my patience level drops to zero.

Worst of all is when the age old--and in my opinion, foolish--axiom of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" comes into play. When the United States supported dictators and other reprehensible groups simply on the basis that they were not communists, that was a mistake. When liberals in the U.S supported and defended Al Qaeda and Hussein's minions in Iraq just because they hated G.W. Bush, that was mistake. It is said the politics breeds strange bedfellows and I've always viewed that as a huge negative.

When Kevin extended me the offer to blog here at Wizbang he never asked me any direct questions about my politics. While the trolls that frequent the comments have me pegged as far right as the meter will go, the truth is that my actual views would shock many of you. While I am indeed fiscally conservative and conservative in general about how I lead my own life, when it comes to social issues I am much more libertarian than anything else. I've never been registered with either party and I never plan to. As I result, I've never voted in a primary, either.

My approach in determining which candidate to vote for or what policy to support has always been to use logic. Some may call it a curse, but I found it a consequence of being a rocket scientist, by training. I've never been swayed by personality. I listen to all sorts of music, but rarely go to concerts and would never, ever go nuts over seeing a favorite singer in person. The same holds for politicians. You can be a motivating orator or a bumbling common man. I refuse to get caught up in emotion when helping to decide something as important as the direction of this great country.

At least, I used to refuse. Something happened with this travesty of a vote on Obamacare. I've had enough. I want the bleeding to stop. I want it to stop in 2010 with Congress. I want it to stop in 2012 with a new President.

I've never understood so-called single issue voters. People who neglect all other considerations and throw their support behind candidates based solely on their views on abortion, or gun control, or belief in global warming. After yesterday, though, I fear I have become one. My single issue is small government. Fiscal responsibility. Sanity. Yes, I have other views that I would like to see mirrored in my representatives. Things like a belief that America is an exceptional country, the need for a strong defense, and support of a scientific versus emotional approach to things like global warming.

But honestly? All that seems to pale in comparison today. I'm ready to make some strange bedfellows. I'm ready to see the irresponsible bastards who would force this legislation on an unwilling public simply because they could kicked out and soon. Enough in enough.

It shouldn't be like this. I shouldn't feel compelled to support someone--anyone--just because they claim support of small government. My decisions should be based on the big picture, on many axes of analysis, on a dispassionate, rational analysis. But I can already tell that I will find it hard, if not impossible, to hold myself to my usual approach.

It really shouldn't be like this.


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Comments (50)

The thing that always got m... (Below threshold)

The thing that always got me was when someone said,"I vote for the person, not the party!" After yesterday this quote should never be used again. If you believe in freedom, small govt, lower taxes and not killing babies then how could you ever vote for anyone from the Democratic party? I do not care who they are. The Republicans have problems and I do no always agree with them but for now they are the only way to stop the socialist agenda that is being rammed down out throats.

I do not think you will be ... (Below threshold)

I do not think you will be a single issue voter in 2012. There will be much to vote on. I really think that Obama won the 2008 election on what he had not done, and what he did not vote on. He was a Blank Slate that you could argue he would be on "your side" when it came time to vote on. The Media never called him on it, and McCain was really never able or allowed to land a "clean punch."
All of that changes in in 2010 and 2012. For better or worse we now know what he stands for.

After 1 year of this guy in... (Below threshold)

After 1 year of this guy in office, the GOP could put SLICK WILLIE up or the real bozo the clown and I would vote for them hands down against this big government marxist.

I thought Obamacare would n... (Below threshold)

I thought Obamacare would never pass. Unfortunately I didn't realize pro-life Democrat is an oxymoron. I didn't realize Bart Stupak (D-MI) was just looking for the right rationalization to vote yes. Stupak is a traitor to the pro-life cause. I hope he doesn't enjoy his new career, whatever it turns out to be.

I am more disappointed than angry right now. I really thought Obamacare would be Nancy Pelosi's biggest failure instead of her biggest success.

Republicans don't need to repeal Obamacare. We can just pass a health care bill that supersedes it. Someday.

The Republicans hav... (Below threshold)

The Republicans have problems and I do no always agree with them but for now they are the only way to stop the socialist agenda that is being rammed down out throats.

Get over your ignorant self.

What exactly have the republicans done for you? They've done nothing for anyone in the past eight years unless that person is a corporation. I own a corporation - and I'll tell you this - if I had to pay a little bit more knowing that my employees aren't going to get fucked by the health insurance companies, so be it. That's what's called being someone of higher moral fiber who actually CARES about his fellow human beings and not folks like you who's only utterance is "Mine! Mine! Mine!"

My company will be fine. I won't go bankrupt or have to shut down. In fact, in this bill I'll actually do a little bit better on my payouts.

Nothing is socialist. Stop being a scared little bunny and get on with your life.

On the bright side, I know ... (Below threshold)

On the bright side, I know its still America because:
No shots were fired;
No water cannon required;
No torching of cars and buildings;
No martial law.
Just -we'll get you next election.
Still the greatest place on earth.

tomg51:I'd add ..."y... (Below threshold)

I'd add ..."yet" to your 1st four lines. progressive thuggery has no bounds.

Yes, catrancher, but so far... (Below threshold)

Yes, catrancher, but so far SteveP seems like the least stable person around, and he appears to be OK with the bill.

Don't worry dudes. Being a... (Below threshold)

Don't worry dudes. Being angry isn't the answer (like the Nobel Peace Prize nominee SteveP up there).

We'll just kick their ass black and blue this November.

One of the best posts that ... (Below threshold)

One of the best posts that I have ever read on Wizbang. Clear, concise, erudite: you could teach a thing or three to some of the older guard, Jay Tea being a case in point. Bravo......

Yeah! I agree with SteveP. ... (Below threshold)

Yeah! I agree with SteveP. Nothing says "I care" more than using the police power of government to steal from one person to give to another. THAT's what SteveP calls "being someone of higher moral fiber". Moron.

Go tell all the dead babies... (Below threshold)

Go tell all the dead babies, oops I mean aborted fetuses, how much you care about your fellow human beings, SteveP.


"if I had to pay a littl... (Below threshold)

"if I had to pay a little bit more knowing that my employees aren't going to get fucked by the health insurance companies, so be it. That's what's called being someone of higher moral fiber who actually CARES about his fellow human beings and not folks like you who's only utterance is "Mine! Mine! Mine!"

Then by all means pay my share. No actually I have no coverage and want none. Dont need it.

Barry is taking ours! Ours! Ours! And giving it to his thug hierarchy. To be so blind as not to see it shows ones ignorance..

How can you not understand ... (Below threshold)

How can you not understand single issue voters? They're simply people who care so passionately about a given issue that no other issue or combination of issues is as important. And people who aren't single issue voters are simply those who either just don't care that much about any single issue or can't pick which of any number of issues is more important to them at any given time.

And don't try to deceive us or yourself, your (new) single issue isn't small government, nor is it for most so-called conservatives (including myself). It's not the size of the government that matters, it is what the government does that bothers us. A small government that taxed a lot is a problem, more so than a larger government that taxed less. A small government that randomly rounded up citizens for the firing squad is more of a problem than a larger government that respected its citizens. Caveat: a larger government will tend to do more things, and by doing more things it increases the likelihood it will do things I don't like, but there isn't a direct correlation... but given the likelihood, I'll go with a small government just to be safe(r)

"We'll just kick their a... (Below threshold)

"We'll just kick their ass black and blue this November."


and I'll tell you this -... (Below threshold)

and I'll tell you this - if I had to pay a little bit more knowing that my employees aren't going to get fucked by the health insurance companies, so be it. That's what's called being someone of higher moral fiber who actually CARES about his fellow human beings and not folks like you who's only utterance is "Mine! Mine! Mine!"

I call total bullsh*t on this SteveP. First of all a man claiming to be of a higher moral fiber wouldn't wait for government intervention to pay his employees more in healthcare benefits! Second, approving governemnt interference and regulation of an industry has nothing to do with one's morals. It doesn't take much to claim moral high ground when you're dealing with other people's money. Now go run your "corporation."

if I had to pay a little... (Below threshold)

if I had to pay a little bit more knowing that my employees aren't going to get fucked by the health insurance companies, so be it.

So what was stopping philanthropists like you all over the U.S. from starting your own health insurance Co-Op and why does the current Medicare program have $Billions in unfunded liabilities?
Why couldn't ACORN have organized for that instead of organizing for political power grabs.

You're a blivet, SteveP.
This whole thing is about a socialist power grab, the health of individual Americans be damned.

SteveP wrote:<blockqu... (Below threshold)

SteveP wrote:

What exactly have the republicans done for you?

Oddly, I've never wanted the Republicans to do anything for me. Or the Democrats, either. All I want is to be reasonably safe, to have the roads and sewers kept in decent condition, and to be left alone. I haven't even used the public schools--my child was educated in private schools. There's stuff like food inspection and airline safety, too, but that's not what you're talking about, is it?

SteveP:I own a co... (Below threshold)

I own a corporation - and I'll tell you this - if I had to pay a little bit more

About that "little bit..."

Do you honestly think it's going to stay "little?" When the actual costs start landing on that company of yours, you're going to start screaming about how it's not so "little" any more. If you were so concerned about your employees, you'd already have insurance for them - and not the cheap stuff, either. You'd be paying for at least a mid-sized plan, covering them and their dependents. You could be giving them at least bare-bones or catastrophic-only coverage right now, for about the same (probably much, much less) as what the final cost of ObamaCare will be.

But you know that if you did start paying them the extra bit (by paying for health insurance, or paying them a fair market wage plus what insurance actually does cost now), you'd have to start charging your customers more, and risk losing them to a competitor.

At the very least, you'd pay them less than the current wage, and buy a group plan that would cost less per person. Of course, they'd quit (because they want the money, not the insurance costs that they mostly don't need).

But you don't. Hypocrite.

SteveP wrote:<blockq... (Below threshold)

SteveP wrote:

. . . if I had to pay a little bit more knowing that my employees aren't going to get fucked by the health insurance companies, so be it.

My understanding is that the bill which has passed both chambers does not have a public option. Do you have a different understanding? (I haven't had the time or energy to wade through the whole fricking thing).

If not, then how does this change anything that you're talking about? If it does have a public option, then that's where we'll all end up before long, isn't it? Unless we part of the evil rich, of course.

"It shouldn't be like this.... (Below threshold)

"It shouldn't be like this."

Agreed. I wasn't always 'conservative', but ended up changing registration to Independent. All those years of "Great Society" promises that never materialized make one realize that, generally, politicians are politicians - they lie a lot. The very few good ones are greatly outnumbered by the bad. This republic is headed for a fiscal train wreck of mammoth proportions.

As for hot-button issues. This will always be the case. People generally just want to be left alone. Government is TOLERATED. Except of course by the idiots who NEED to be told what do to/think on a daily basis. As there is greater government intrusion into daily life, you can look forward to more and more people suddenly waking up on a 'hot button' issue. People just have different levels of tolerance.

SteveP: In fact, in this... (Below threshold)

SteveP: In fact, in this bill I'll actually do a little bit better on my payouts.

Care to explain how this is going to work? Please enlighten all of us business owners who think our costs and taxes are going to go up...

My understandin... (Below threshold)
My understanding is that the bill which has passed both chambers does not have a public option.
It'll lead to a public option, which eventually will be the only option.
Well said and great post, D... (Below threshold)
Arizona CJ:

Well said and great post, Dan.

I'm a libertarian on social issues. I've also been a registered independent almost continual since turning 18. I despise the "party line Voter" of either party.

All that changed yesterday. I'm now a registered Republican, and I'll be voting party line this November, something I've long sworn never to do.

Dan, a very well written an... (Below threshold)

Dan, a very well written and thought out post.

I commented on one of the posts yesterday concerning the mess Carter made of the USA and how it incited many of us to get involved. Thus the Reagan Revolution unfolded. After that first election, I ran for precinct chairman and won. I held the seat for a few cycles. Went to regional conventions as a delegate as well as the state conventions. I was closely involved with the framing of the platform for each election cycle I was involved in. After a time, I eased back on involvement to raise my family and focus on my career.

What I stated yesterday was the democratic leadership and the inexerienced empty suit Obama, has awakened the sleeping masses who for the most part are too busy working, raising families and paying taxes to get "too" involved in politics. When I attend Tea Party's, I see many people just like my wife and I, who are totally fed up with the giving away of our country for political gain.

So I would say to stay vigilant and positive. We knew the game was rigged. The dem's are just hoping our memories are short. That cannot happen. Back in 1980, there was no internet, Fox News and very little talk radio. Now, we have an unlimited amount of media that will keep this arrogance at the forefront of all the citizens mind. Quite simply, they are toast. No one. Regardless of party, likes to be ignored and/or dismissed. They did it at their own peril. Sadly, the time was ripe for good debate and compromise on healthcare reform, but the dem's squandered it. ww

Wipe the snot from your nos... (Below threshold)

Wipe the snot from your nose and grow up... this ain't a dress rehearsal... this is life...this is what we do now and leave our kids for the future.
Liberty needs to be defended and every evil that attacks it needs to be destroyed. Maybe next time you'll understand what a slippery slope is....
not once during this whole debate... when the question arose as to what were we supposed to do for the less fortunate did I hear a response even remotely similar to James Madison

"Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government."

until we stand tall against the use of governmental force to extract from our neighbor to give to another we deserve to get it good and hard.


OMG! Nelson and Lincoln sa... (Below threshold)

OMG! Nelson and Lincoln say they "CAN'T" vote for the reconciliation package. What a surprise! Wonder how many more Democratic senators are going to feel this way?

Oh Nancy dear! You better break out the KY.

It seems that it took you a... (Below threshold)

It seems that it took you a long time to realize that SMALL government = social FREEDOM. With a big government you no longer have the luxury of being allowed to live as you please, because your living choices effect everyone else that is a part of what ever big government scheme is happening.

Health care now is going to be the pretext for many changes to everyone's life. Too much salt, fat, overweight, smoker, drinker, male gay likely to get aids, have a family history of some expensive disease, like to climb mountains? It all now matters to everyone else who is subsidizing your bills, and as the bills start to skyrocket so too will the calls for government mandates against life choices that may lead to health care expenses.

> It seems that it took you... (Below threshold)

> It seems that it took you a long time to
> realize that SMALL government = social FREEDOM.

Oh I always realized this. But take the following example. Say there was a candidate that was for (1) small government, but also (2) felt that small government meant we couldn't support Israel and (3) also felt that a small government couldn't reasonably use capital punishment.

Before I would consider strongly not supporting this candidate. Now? Maybe 1 is all I need. That's what is changed for me. That is what scares me.

(Thanks for all comments guys.)

Dan, your feeling exactly w... (Below threshold)
Tina S:

Dan, your feeling exactly what the dems had been feeling under Bush.

I would no more vote a stra... (Below threshold)

I would no more vote a straight Republican ticket than I would a Democratic ticket. And there's no way in hell I'm voting for a lousy Republican just because he's a Republican. A lousy candidate is a lousy candidate regardless of party. The problem with this country is that far too many think they should vote Democrat or vote Republican rather than vote for principled people who believe in the Constitution.

The Republicans have been just as bad as the Democrats over my lifetime. I wouldn't give you two cents for the lot of them. In fact I'd be thrilled if a 535 of them died and had to be replaced. The only problem is their replacements would be just as crappy as they are.

I'm an old man. My life is winding down. I wouldn't bet a plugged nickel that the Republicans will be swept into power this fall. I've seen too many elections where crooks and criminals get re-elected because "the people" are too stupid or too lazy to do their homework and pick candidates that are worth a shit.

Now you have the country you've voted for. And I regret that I wasted six years of my life serving in the Navy to protect people who obviously could care less about the greatest nation on earth. I took an oath when I enlisted. I was naive enough to believe that politicians who took that same oath meant what they swore too.

I lost my naivete a long time ago - about the time that Congress abandoned the South Vietnamese and doomed tens of thousands of our allies to death.

Now, as it slips through your fingers, you're angry? You should have been angry forty years ago. Or thirty years ago.

Now you're awake? It's too late. The ship has sailed. America will never be the same again.

> My single issue is sma... (Below threshold)

> My single issue is small limited government.

A small suggestion.

> Now, as it slips through ... (Below threshold)

> Now, as it slips through your fingers, you're
> angry? You should have been angry forty
> years ago. Or thirty years ago.

I hear you but for the record, I wasn't alive forty years ago. :)

I have no faith in either party to be honest.

The point of my post, though, was that used to mean I would decide on a case-by-case basis who would get my vote. Did I often pick the conservative? Yes. Did I vote against Obama? Hell yes. But I kept an open mind.

Now I am feeling different. I'm feeling partisan in a way I never have. That isn't a good place to be. As Tina suggested above, blind hatred of Bush has given us Obama. Now fury against Obama and his ilk is going to give us...what? Where does it end?

Which is why my post was titled what it was. We have groups of people across the world bent on our destruction. We have other countries that are racing to beat us economically. Instead of worrying about that, we are cheering and raging against partisan votes in Congress that defy the will of the people.

I will add, though, that you should never regret your service. America has been through a lot. She survived because of people like you. She will survive the upcoming financial crisis as well. I just regret the sacrifice many will be forced to make to see her through.

Dan, I was not attacking yo... (Below threshold)

Dan, I was not attacking you. I apologize if it came across that way. My generation fought communism all over the world. I lost friends and my best cousin in that damn war. Then I came back home to find that the communists had moved here. And now they've won. And Americans elected them.

You can see why I might be bitter. If I had known then what I know now, I never would have enlisted.

Tina-"Da... (Below threshold)


"Dan, your feeling exactly what the dems had been feeling under Bush."

Feeling what?? Got wood? unemployed?

Blindly following the party... (Below threshold)

Blindly following the party line is a strictly emotional response, which you yourself seem to say is a bad idea (in terms of politics, climate change, and just about everything else).

George W. Bush was responsible for huge increases in government and an enormous structural deficit. If you look closely, many Republicans before him did the same. Voting the Republican party line may prove to be quite the mirage.

If you want what's good for this country, resist the knee-jerk emotional reactions, fight against the increasing polarization in our society, work to build bridges, and try find common ground. Don't foment extreme positions in the name of countermanding liberal media bias, or whatever other excuse. Every time you stir political zealotry, you only help to push people to feel that much more passionately for, or against you, and that will ultimately translate to extreme positions, extreme candidates, and extreme laws.

You said it yourself: the most likely response to people voting along party lines is a string of increasingly polarized candidates, each one trying to outdo the other. That is almost certain to lead to your worst nightmare.

John:George W. Bu... (Below threshold)

George W. Bush was responsible for huge increases in government and an enormous structural deficit.

Well, sorta. Mostly by signing off on the massive increases in the last two years of his second term. You know - after the Democrats took over both sides of Congress.

Find a chart of the deficit, and try to figure out when things went south...

In fairness, Bush signed Mc... (Below threshold)

In fairness, Bush signed McCain-Feingold before 2006. He also nominated Harriet Miers and pushed Amnesty-By-Any-Other-Name before 2006.

To some extent those things helped contribute to 2006.

John, you want to build bri... (Below threshold)

John, you want to build bridges? To where? The side that believes you have to support the killing of babies? Taking more of your money? Making the country weaker with ridiculous foriegn policies? Forcing legislation on the populace that continually screams for them not to do so? Where do you find the common ground? Maybe by agreeing on the appointments to federal judgships? Ha. Vote for the person my ass, not if that person has any form of big D after their name. They are ruining this country, all in the name of Obama.

tina is still a dim bulb. ... (Below threshold)

tina is still a dim bulb. Did you give us any good alternative? algore and kerry. snort.

SteveP,I'm sure I'... (Below threshold)


I'm sure I'm wasting my breath, but....

"What exactly have the republicans done for you?"

Your premise is everything that is wrong with this country. I don't ask the government to feed me, provide me shelter and clothing, to take care of my family, or even provide me health care. I don't ask for it. I don't want it. Those things are MY responsibility as a son, a husband, and productive member of society.
"That's what's called being someone of higher moral fiber who actually CARES about his fellow human beings and not folks like you who's only utterance is "Mine! Mine! Mine!"

I provide for my family. I work to make myself and my family better. Anyone who sits around and asks for others to provide these things for them could be using that time to go out there and earn those things for themselves. This is the morally right thing to do. Asking that the government work to pass laws to take my money, my property, and my liberty so that it can be given to a preferred class of people is nothing but theft. That's not moral. Why should I work harder so that others do not have to do the same? That isn't morality; that is tyranny.

The fault in your logic, which is a faulty statement in itself as there is an utter lack of logic in all of your posts, is that somehow, someway, the wealth that my family has created, was created by denying the same to others. This is a lie. I work hard for everything I have and nothing has been given to me. There isn't an able bodied person born into this great country today that could not achieve what my wife and I have, regardless of skin color, sexual preference, or religious belief. To take my hard earned money and give it to others so that they can buy health insurance to go along with their flat screen LCD HDTVs is rewarding others for making poor financial choices at the expense of my property and my liberty.

I care about my family, my community, and my fellow citizens. The desire to own a car and a house is shared by all people. The fact that I can afford it does not singularly make me immoral or greedy. I choose not to buy an expensive sports car, though I sure would like one. Does my desire make me immoral, or are only exotic car owners immoral?

There are many examples in people's lives when others have had something that we desire. One response is to work hard and achieve it yourself. Another response is to hate, to wish to bring down, or to steal from the owner of that which we desire. The former is a being of high moral fiber, a creator of wealth, and a productive member of society. The later is a worthless shell, a divider, a destroyer of wealth, and an immoral being.

You are clearly the later.

JK,Your post is, i... (Below threshold)


Your post is, in a word, abhorrent.

I work (own a business), employ people, own a home in good neighborhood (my kids go to public school - a good one), three cars and a summer home in Florida I never get to.

Unlike you, I don't look at systems such as medicare, social security and the like as "rewarding others for making poor financial choices at the expense of my property and my liberty"

You have this stereotypical view of those "beneath" you as sloppy, lazy bums - all of them, obviously since you referenced their plight twice in your post.

I, on the other hand, recognize that these "socialist" programs as you might call it are the systems that help my parents, on a fixed income with drug costs so absurd my mother has to buy her drugs from Canada - survive with medicare. They are what another friend, who is in his late 40's, vibrant and well-off before, has to use as his money has dwindled away due to his contraction of leukemia. He's now on social security. Without it he would have died. Luck of the draw. This guy used to make $450,000 a year many moons ago.

I believe that most people are not lazy bums, but sure, there are those who want to game a system. You, on the other hand, use that minority as your excuse for claiming the entire system is corrupt. Convenient, isn't it. It allows you to view others as useless because they didn't have the same advantages you had.

I grew up in an upper-middle class neighborhood. Watched most of my friends there follow in their parents footsteps into banking. Heard when many of them turned 30 and got their trust funds. many of them are died in the wool republicans, feel the same way you do. Convenient for them. They can afford to.

I never had that luxury. My folks were never that well off. When they pass, there will be nothing coming from them since what is left will be sucked away by their current illnesses - long term ones that I won't go into but without medicare they would be goners - or my sister and I would go broke paying their medical bills. I don't whine. Nothing to complain about. I've done fine in my life. I help everyone where I can - and I recognize how tied together everyone is on this planet, relative or not.

You talk about your freedom. You must feel you're some sort of patriotic American. If you were, you'd understand that this isn't about you and your things and that the world isn't as black and white as you'd like to make it.

But this is a useless post, pretty much because a person like you can't recognize anything beyond your own navel. So you will continue to be an ignorant, self-centered ass who someone sees himself as the opposite and will never learn any better, always assume that bad luck is earned and not sometimes accidental, and those who can't afford healthcare don't deserve it (and, by extension, might as well die and decrease the surplus population). Good luck with that.

And, so there's no confusio... (Below threshold)

And, so there's no confusion, both of my parents have paid into these systems their entire life and still feel other lives are worth something despite their net worth - or ability to pay into it as much as they have.

But, once again, people like you find whatever convenient excuses they can to justify their own self-centeredness and callousness. It's what makes you morally repugnant.

. . . if I had to ... (Below threshold)
. . . if I had to pay a little bit more knowing that my employees aren't going to get fucked by the health insurance companies, so be it

SteveP, if that is the case, why aren't you paying more now to get them on a (more) reputable health plan? What is holding you back from ensuring your employees have good coverage?
This isn't sarcasm. I honestly want to understand your position. Paul Hooson aside, I don't think we have that many business mavens hanging about Wizbang's rafters.

SteveP, if that is ... (Below threshold)

SteveP, if that is the case, why aren't you paying more now to get them on a (more) reputable health plan?

We do have a reputable health plan, so to speak. But it's not an issue of moving to a premium plan. Our company was originally on Aetna (HMO). Myself as well. There are no Cadillac plans in my company.

Everyone had issues with them. They balked on payments constantly, the last straw being my art director's pregnancy. Her doctor proposed a C-section due to her size. Despite the Doctor's directive, Aetna considered it elective. She ended up paying somewhere in the range $8,000 out of pocket for that stay.

This is a pregnancy. People have them every day.

We moved to HIP, also HMO. Haven't had a problem, but lets put it like this: ANY OF US, including me, could be dropped due to a catastrophic illness, even with a premium plan. Now, I'll give the caviat that I don't read all the fine print (once again, my accountant's job) and maybe there's a "we won't drop you if you feel it's in our best interest" clause that costs $1,000 per person more a month, but I'm not aware of it and some of these plans are just out of reach financially (we'd have to dip into our working capital and that's not possible this year). And, also, we're private, not that large and not too big to fail.

So... what I meant by that statement wasn't an issue of "paying more" for another plan, it's paying more in our overall costs (be it in a little extra in premiums, taxes, what have you) but knowing that none of us have to worry that the insurance company is just a few illnesses away from fucking us. Personally, I'd like to pay less (we cover 1/2 of our employees monthly costs).

I tend to write as I think and don't always fill in the explanation gaps, so there. Clarified.

I'm soooo happy I'm no long... (Below threshold)

I'm soooo happy I'm no longer a part of your Party. I know everyone will say "good riddance" and that's fine by me because the thought that I was once identified with this hatred is horrifing to say the least. As a USN Vetern and once proud Republican I say "good riddance".

John == Concern Troll... (Below threshold)
Sheik Yur Bouty:

John == Concern Troll

Dood, that is soooooo 2008.

SteveP,See, my view ... (Below threshold)

See, my view of this is you've replaced the chance of being f'd over by an insurance company with the chance of being f'd over by the government.
With the insurance company, you can change carriers (as you have). You can appeal to the courts. You can rely on an insurance company to look after their bottom line. Too much bad press or too many lost customers is something they seek to avoid.
The government, on the other hand...
there's a reason people say things like "you can't fight city hall".

I'm all for health insurance reform, but what we've gotten is a power grab and another expansion of the functionary class.

With the insurance ... (Below threshold)

With the insurance company, you can change carriers (as you have). You can appeal to the courts. You can rely on an insurance company to look after their bottom line. Too much bad press or too many lost customers is something they seek to avoid.

You REALLY don't know the health insurance companies, do you? What you've said above is very optimistic, but essentially naive. Take it from someone with quite a few friends and family who have first hand experience - not just hypothetical scenarios.

You can't bet your life on "naive." Furthermore, we wouldn't be getting any money from the government anyway. Did you actually read this bill? If not, please do, then debate.

This knee-jerk emotional response that people think there's a takeover is irrational and patently wrong. You can say what you want, but it's not based on any real facts.

Oddly enough Steve, your ta... (Below threshold)

Oddly enough Steve, your take on government involvement fits my definition of naive.
For what I know of insurance companies... what you don't know about me and my history could fill almost as many pages as Obamacare.
I've worked for government, academia, small companies, medium companies and 2 firking behemoths. I've been unemployed and self employed. I've been in the ER and OR for a car accident. The ER for sports injuries (and with really crap insurance, thanks to a crap job working for a legislator). More trips as I got older from a problem with my GI tract. And I've married a lovely women that gets much of her income from properly getting the insurance companies to reimburse her clients. And that doesn't cover aging parents, a grand parent with Alzheimer's, a sibling that is blind after a cerebral hemorrhage and brain surgery or any other issues my family and friends have been through together. I think I have an idea about insurance companies, good and bad.
As for reading, please go back and tell me where I said "we" would be getting money from the government.






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