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Burn, Baby, Burn!

Yesterday, my colleague Rick discussed the planned mass Koran burning by a church in Florida. I read his piece -- and the comments with a great deal of interest; I'd been kicking around my own take on that, along with another idea I'd tried to enact (albeit in a lackluster manner).

I'm not going to say that Rick is wrong, but I am going to say that I come at the question from an entirely different angle -- and have my own opinions. (Big surprise there.)

Rick's piece is shaped by his perspective as a mature, thoughtful Christian. My perspective is none of those.

In many ways, I am a child of the Iranian Hostage Crisis. It was the first world event that really caught my attention (I was barely 12 when it started). And so much of my childhood memories dealing with politics revolve around seeing American flags being burned around the world. It seems that there can't be any kind of protest against the US anywhere that doesn't feature Old Glory going up in smoke.

In my head, I actually get a bit of a kick out of seeing the US flag being burned. When done domestically, it's an affirmation of the principles for which it stands -- the right to express oneself freely, even to the point of desecrating and destroying the very symbol of those principles. When done abroad, it reminds me that we're a hell of a lot more mature than most of the world, who apparently believes in some kind of voodoo proxy magic and thinks that burning a flag will somehow transmute into some evil being visited on us.

But in my gut, I still get angered. It still rouses a visceral reaction in me, a resentment and hostility towards those who express such fury at the symbol of my nation.

But back to the planned Koran desecration.

A few weeks ago, I got the bright idea of carrying out a bit of that on my own. I intended to take a series of pictures of a Koran swaddled in bacon. Delicious, delightful, divine proof that God loves gentiles too bacon. And I'd post them here to show that the glorious power of bacon can overcome all things.

Alas, I didn't find a Koran at my local discount bookstore, and I didn't feel like paying full retail price for one. I still might, but talking about it here kind of puts a damper on the actual execution.

The real point of my little act of desecration would be to assert my right -- as an individual -- to do so. To declare that I, as an American, can do quite a few things that the government might not approve of, that the rest of the world might not approve of, but I can do in utter defiance of their sentiments.

I do not speak for the United States. Neither does that church in Florida. I speak for myself, and they speak for themselves. The government has absolutely no business in trying to prevent either of us from committing blasphemy against Islam if we so choose.

That the entire United States would be blamed for those actions is utterly unreasonable. And that is absolutely no great surprise -- at its core, most of Islam is unreasonable. They simply don't grasp some of the fundamental truths about America.

There's a cliche' that "they hate us because of our freedoms." That's pretty simplistic, but it's accurate. They are incapable of grasping the full meaning of our freedoms. They are incapable of grasping that we, as individuals, can do things that our government might not approve of, but can't do a damned thing about it. They are incapable of grasping that our government has absolutely nothing to say or do on matters of faith. They are incapable of grasping that our government has no business whatsoever enforcing Islamic -- or any other religious -- dictates.

So if some church wants to burn a Koran, or I want to swaddle a Koran in a snug little cozy of wonderful, blessed, crispy, mighty bacon and post pictures of it online, so be it.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for General Betray-Us Petraeus. (And unlike President Obama and so many of his supporters, that's not a new development.) But his comment on the whole story seems to be "don't poke the crazy people with sticks, because they might do something crazy."

Looking at it pragmatically, I have to wonder: how the hell could the crazies hate us more? What more can they do to express their heightened rage?

And most importantly, do those considerations outweigh our interests in exercising our Constitutional rights?

This whole story provides a great contrast with the Ground Zero Mosque "Muslim Community Center and mosque just coincidentally around the corner from Ground Zero, where debris from one airliner landed, scheduled for groundbreaking on September 11, 2011" controversy. Those of us who don't like it are accused of trying to suppress the builders' Constitutional rights to build it.

That's bullshit, of course. Hardly anyone speaking out against it are calling for the government to intervene and stop it.

But those who are trying to stop the Koran burning -- aren't they doing the same thing? And by getting General Petraeus involved -- isn't that getting the government involved in the matter?

Nope, that's difference. That's simply the government demonstrating tolerance by being intolerant of those they deem intolerant. And that's a fundamental plank of modern liberalism.

In the meantime... anyone know where I can get a Koran cheap?


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Comments (65)

I may or may not agree with... (Below threshold)

I may or may not agree with your desire to burn a koran or wrap one in bacon,but I will defend to the death your right to do so.
Now,,,wrap one up and burn that mother down.

There's no need to burn the... (Below threshold)

There's no need to burn the Koran. That might upset the sensitivities of our Muslim neighbors.
A better solution for a scrumptious, inoffensive entree: Just wrap in bacon, pre-heat oven to 450 degrees (and not one degree more), and cook until 9:11. No burning, no need for jihad; just a Koran really well done.

"Looking at it pragmatic... (Below threshold)

"Looking at it pragmatically, I have to wonder: how the hell could the crazies hate us more? What more can they do to express their heightened rage?"

That right there shoots down the whole "don't provoke them" angle. If this guy doesn't burn the Quran, does that mean some jihadist won't try to blow something up? No. He'll just give another reason for doing so. Pick any reason. There's a million of them.

There is a cacophany of American voices denouncing this guy's plans, but the jerk wads in the Middle East don't care. They call for "Death to America" because they don't like what one guy plans to do. That's what separates us from them. We don't want ALL Muslims dead because of the acts of a small percentage of splodey-dopes.

"Looking at it pragmatic... (Below threshold)

"Looking at it pragmatically, I have to wonder: how the hell could the crazies hate us more? What more can they do to express their heightened rage?"

I believe you've hit it solidly, Jay Tea. They burn flags, they burn effigies, they riot, they kill themselves (well, other nominal co-religionists) because of perceived slights. Spread a rumor of a Koran Flush? It's a reason to riot, and kill themselves. Draw cartoons of Mohammed? Riot, and kill themselves while putting out fatwas on the cartoonists. They are indeed crazy by our estimation.

And for the last couple of decades (Well, close...) we've spent a lot of time and effort to NOT offend them. We interveined in the Bosnia conflict. We liberated Kuwait. We got rid of Saddam. We spent roughly $2 billion in tsunami aid in Indonesia, did a hell of a lot of S&R and provided food and water while the UN dithered about making sure their limos were safe and (I understand) Saudi Arabia spent $10 million. There's pretty much no other country that's bent over backwards to accomodate Muslims as much as the US.

But do we get any appreciation for it? Hell, no. They're worse than cats (who are famous for a "Yes, you fed me this morning and finished brushing me thirty seconds ago, but WTF have you done for me LATELY?" attitude) - who at least don't behead and stone people.

(But just wait until they evolve thumbs. THEN we'll see who the real masters are...)

We're backward, boorish, Islamophobic bastards - the great Satan that must be destroyed so Islam can triumph. Any imam or two-bit Muslim organizer can vocalize a complaint - and if we don't IMMEDIATLY jump through all sorts of hoops to resolve it, we're loudly accused of being as bad as Hitler.

(And where are all the leftists who adamantly maintain there's a Church-state firewall? By that reasoning, government should be making NO accomodations for ANY religion - yet they're strangely silent when it comes to Muslim accomodation.)

I'm tired of trying to be reasonable when faced with unreasoning hatred - either from the left (who quickly tar all Christianity as intolerant or violent when faced with the likes of McVeigh, using one or two extremists as examples of it all, and are silent when faced with the headchopping homophobes of Islam) or from Islamic bastards who are mortally offended when we look at shari'a and go "Um, no thank you - we'll pass on that whole 13th Century thing."

Burn the book, use it as bacon grease absorbent, grind it up and use it for cat litter, make a flotilla of paper boats and take Mr. Ducky on a regatta outing, shred a couple of cases for pig bedding - it won't make a difference because the radicals are ALREADY pissed. And the 'moderates' don't give a damn, and I'm just plain out of patience and tolerance. (More in stock later today. Possibly.)

What we may need to do, since sweet reason hasn't prevailed, is make the nominal 'moderate' Muslims more afraid of US than of their fellow head-hackers. It's a damn shame it's gotten to this point - but maybe this will, at least, get their attention.

Wrap a Koran in bacon... or... (Below threshold)

Wrap a Koran in bacon... or smear it with feces... and you don't have desecration, you have...


I've seen comments to the e... (Below threshold)

I've seen comments to the effect that the general and the troops understand this better than we do and they don't want this to happen. I propose that they understand the first ammendment better than our friends on the left do and they fight for exactly this right, burn a Koran, burn the flag express your first ammendment rights that's what they fight for. So I don't pretend to speak for them but my gut tells me they are on our side on this one no matter what the good general says.

Jay, you can download one h... (Below threshold)
Upset Old Guy:

Jay, you can download one here http://www.islamway.com/SF/quran/

Maybe print it out on absorbent paper, given the intended use.

Print the surahs, in revers... (Below threshold)

Print the surahs, in reverser order on toilet paper. The rest is obvious.

Wrapping Korans in bacon or... (Below threshold)

Wrapping Korans in bacon or burning them are cheap shots at all Muslims because you're frustrated by our inability to locate and to neutralize some terrorists who just happen to be Muslims. It's kind of like venting your animosity on all Jews because one shrewd Jewish attorney whupped your ass in court.

Your anxieties and animosities should be directed at certain terrorist groups, not at all Muslims in general. The latter of which is irrational, ignorant, irresponsible and goofy.

BTW, they don't hate us because of any perceived slights to them, or for any of those other silly reasons which you alleged. Although Hezzbolah, Hamas, Al Queda and other radical elements of their ilk have symbiotic relationships with each other, essentially based on the premise that the enemy of my friend is my enemy, too, actually they diverge on their objectives. For example, with Osama bin Laden and Al Queda, it's both a nationalism thingy and it has more to do with bringing down the decadent Saudi regime and with redistributing the wealth from the sale of oil than it has to do with a dislike for Americans. It's about self-determination, too, as opposed to having their countries controlled by westerners. Suffice to say, there are other factors which motivate them, too, many of which are economic and not religious. Here again, for just one example, Osama bin Laden would like to seize the oil fields now owned by the Royal Saudi Family, In other words, there is more at stake here than you realize. There are dynamics at play here with which you are not familiar. It isn't a Muslim thingy. It's a power struggle for control of wealth.

SPQR, it's not so much as e... (Below threshold)

SPQR, it's not so much as expressing anger but asserting my right to express it. It's a declaration that their rules and laws do not apply to me, and I will not let threats of violence coerce me into obeying the laws of a faith I reject.

I eat bacon and pepperoni and salami, in defiance of Jewish laws. Jews don't care.

I take the Lord's name in vain and have violated several of the Ten Commandments, as well as have done quite a few other things Christianity frowns upon. (I was involved with a woman before her divorce was final, so chalk up "adultery" to that list. We had a little celebration when the paperwork was finally done.) Christians don't threaten me.

Only Islam demands that everyone everywhere defer to Islamic law and "show respect" for their tenets. And that pisses me off no end.


The GZ mosque is an act of ... (Below threshold)

The GZ mosque is an act of triumphalism (or conquest - much the same thing). Neither pretty nor conducive to comity, although they do have a right to do it. Burning the Koran is an act of petty spite, rather like a child that smashes another child's toy in a fit of pique. It is also neither pretty nor conducive to comity, but those people too have a right to do it.

Actions have consequences. The consequence of the GZ mosque is a heightened suspicion of moslems and greater scrutiny of the individuals involved. The community that is behind the GZ mosque is bearing the brunt of the consequences. The consequence of the Koran burning should be expected to be greater recruitment of terrorists and a greater level of attacks on U.S. military personnel. The people bearing the consequences have no involvement in the provocation, and those involved with the provocation bear none of the consequences. That is the problem with it.

Just like the Mosque at Gro... (Below threshold)

Just like the Mosque at Ground Zero...Just because you have a right to do something does not make it the right thing to do. Burning Korans is just a provocative and childish act.

Nice try SPQR. At it's hear... (Below threshold)

Nice try SPQR. At it's heart, Islam is not a religion, but a complete package for ruling everyone's lives, believers and infidels alike. It dominates politics, government, religion, and daily life. And while it merely tolerates unbelievers (so long as they don't openly practice THEIR religion) it mandates death to anyone who ATTEMPTS to leave the Muslim faith. So attempting to parse out their "true" intentions is a fool's errand.....

SPQR,Yesterday you... (Below threshold)
Sheik Yur Bouty:


Yesterday you said "I dunno, guys. Neither Rick, nor JT have intervened yet, which should tell you that I'm hitting some home runs out of the park today.

But if it makes you feel better to believe that ol' Jim there is right, hey, close it up there in the infield, guys."

Well, JT has now posted on the subject and it certainly appears that he does not agree with you. And yet, here you are, still arguing the wrong side of this argument.

Those home runs you thought you were hitting? Well, they were all on the wrong side of the foul pole. It's really time for you to let this one go.

Appeasement is a strategy for losers. It doesn't matter whether you are appeasing muslims, leftist sensibilities, or the playground bully. Appeasement only leads to more bad behavior from the appease-ee. NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO NOT BE OFFENDED. NO. ONE.

The sooner the muslim community as a whole figures this out, the sooner people will stop dying needlessly. Until then, [email protected]#$'em if they can't take a joke.

"Don't poke the crazy pe... (Below threshold)
John S:

"Don't poke the crazy people with sticks, because they might do something crazy."

On the other hand, provoking these fanatics to march in the street makes them a good target for our cluster bombs, or napalm if CNN is among them.

JT, I get your point. But y... (Below threshold)

JT, I get your point. But you are being used and manipulated by cunning, powerful and unscupulous people who who are whipping up religious ferver (on both sides) to advance their agendas.

This pastor in Gaineville has a screwy notion that he is just exercising his 1st Amendment Rights for his own religious and patriotic reasons. His ignoranace and his bigotry towards Muslims are playing right into the hands of two factions that come to mind. You could say that, under our Constition he has every right to be played for a fool by people whom he has never met, and I'm being tactful here.

SPQR, I didn't notice your ... (Below threshold)

SPQR, I didn't notice your comment yesterday where you claimed that my silence was a form of agreement with you.

Don't do that.

I have no problems speaking for myself. I think I've proven that adequately. If I don't venture an opinion on something, you can presume several things: that I do not have an opinion, that I choose to not express my opinion, that I am planning on expressing an opinion in the future.

But you can not presume that I will agree with you simply because I haven't "intervened."

To me, "intervene" means going beyond engaging in discussion in the comments. It means putting on my "editor" hat and exerting my authority here. And I don't enjoy doing that.

Nor do the people I "intervene" with, generally.

Do not ever presume to speak for me again.


SPQR - There are dynami... (Below threshold)

SPQR - There are dynamics at play here with which you are not familiar. It isn't a Muslim thingy. It's a power struggle for control of wealth.

Wrapped in the guise of a religious jihad, which we just happen to be a central target of.

Tell ya what - when the head-hackers start blowing themselves up in Riyadh, or hijacking jets and flying them into various towers in Saudi Arabia, then I'll start thinking it's a power struggle and it's all about the bucks. Until then, I'll judge their motivations by their actions and professed intent.

I sympathize with your atti... (Below threshold)

I sympathize with your attitude to a point.

It borders on the bizarre that people who have no reaction to desecration of the American flag, or for that matter desecration of the Bible, get their panties in a wad over this.

As far as I am concerend General Petraeus is indulging in PC speak. (I fear he is forming a habit for this). My wife buys his argument, and I try in vain to convince her otherwise. My statement that the Taliban will certainly not pass up any chance to kill an American if the burning doesn't occur, nor will they go looking for an American to kill simply because it is burned, falls on deaf ears. Because Petraeus has spoken.

My understanding is that this Pastor is trying to illustrate that Muslim's lack tolerance. That does not need further illustration. It has been demonstrated countless times to any who pay attention.

My argument against burning the Koran, or any other religious or national symbol, is simply based on self-respect. I hate to see any American degenerate to the level of the thugs who do these things. Even though this act does not represent me, or my attitude, it will be portrayed as doing so. It won't just be Muslims who paint all Americans as Nazi style book burners; every European who resents the United States will do likewise. I don't care about them, but our President will agree with them--and that will churn my stomach, again..

JT, I get your point. Bu... (Below threshold)

JT, I get your point. But you are being used and manipulated by cunning, powerful and unscupulous people who who are whipping up religious ferver (on both sides) to advance their agendas.

Screw you. NOBODY'S using or manipulating me. I hear the news, I read the responses, and I come up with my own ideas. I'd been kicking around the bacon idea for a couple of weeks. I read Rick's piece (missing your comments), saw his point, and it didn't sway me -- for the reasons I spelled out above.

I am no one's lackey or tool, and you are irritating me greatly by saying that I am. Because by saying so, you are saying that I am not capable of formulating my own opinions and coming to the conclusions I have reached without being steered to them. That I am so weak-willed and feeble-minded that I can be influenced without even realizing it.

That is quite possibly the worst insult you can give a blogger. It's certainly one of the worst I've faced -- and I've been insulted a LOT.

You sound like Obama, quite frankly, when he says that some people reject his ideas because they haven't been properly educated on them. His ideas are so good, so decent, so right that no one in their right mind could possibly reject them. He simply can't conceive of how some folks might actually understand what he wants to do, and oppose it anyway.

If you have that little respect for me -- that you think that I automatically agree with you because I haven't said otherwise, that I couldn't possibly hold a differing opinion because you're so right, and that I'm so feeble-minded that I'm an unknowing puppet of some vague sinister forces -- then feel free to go elsewhere. Ain't nothing holding you here.


Sheik -"Appease... (Below threshold)

Sheik -

"Appeasement is a strategy for losers. It doesn't matter whether you are appeasing muslims, leftist sensibilities, or the playground bully."

It is always a temptation to an armed and agile nation,
To call upon a neighbour and to say:
"We invaded you last night - we are quite prepared to fight,
Unless you pay us cash to go away."

And that is called asking for Dane-geld,
And the people who ask it explain
That you've only to pay 'em the Dane-geld
And then you'll get rid of the Dane!

It is always a temptation to a rich and lazy nation,
To puff and look important and to say:
"Though we know we should defeat you, we have not the time to meet you.
We will therefore pay you cash to go away."

And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we've proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane.

It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation,
For fear they should succumb and go astray,
So when you are requested to pay up or be molested,
You will find it better policy to say:

"We never pay any one Dane-geld,
No matter how trifling the cost,
For the end of that game is oppression and shame,
And the nation that plays it is lost!"


As true now as when he wrote it...

(Apologies if the formatting didn't hold true.)

Don't ever forget Islam is ... (Below threshold)

Don't ever forget Islam is also a Political System, it's not just a "religion"

There is an illustrative po... (Below threshold)
Walter Cronanty:

There is an illustrative point to be made by the reaction to the jerk's threat to burn the Koran. In the US, much gnashing of teeth over "offending" muslims everywhere" [what doesn't offend them?]. Governmment poobahs/political pundits lecture about tolerance, etc. In Islamic countries, well, not so much:

Afghan Crowd disperses after burning US flags, effigy of pastor planning to burn Quran
Updated 08:35 PM Sep 06, 2010KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) - Scores of people have gathered in Afghanistan's capital Kabul on Monday to denounce a U.S. church's plan to burn the Islamic holy book the Quran.

Members of the crowd gathered chanted "Long live Islam" and "Death to America" in response to fiery speeches from members of parliament, provincial council deputies, and Islamic clerics denouncing the United States and demanding the withdrawal of foreign troops from the country.

Note, there are no official government/interfaith calls for tolerance, no speeches about not judging all Americans by the actions of an a-hole. Nope, just the usual "death to America" and flag burning. I think burning the Koran is stupid, insensitive and sophomoric. But, I really can't get too worked up about it, at least until the mythical moderate Muslims start calling for religious tolerance in Arab countries and start criticizing "members of parliament, provincial council deputies, and Islamic clerics" for their incendiary rhetoric.

Jay Tea, SPQR -Guy... (Below threshold)

Jay Tea, SPQR -

Guys, I hate to step into the middle of such a lovefest, but...

You know, on second thought I ain't gonna say a word. Wish I had a bucket of cold water handy, though.

I was just wondering if any... (Below threshold)

I was just wondering if anyone can think of how many bibles were burned on 9-11 2001? With this I mean on the airplanes, in the Twin Towers and just on people who happened to be "in the way" when the terrorists decided to "stage" their very own little protest against America and the ideals that she represents.

Do I condone idiots and their behavior? Nope, but do I think that the troops are in more danger because of this action...NO. I see the troops in danger because of an administration that through actions cares little about them. Burning a Koran to me is no different than the President announcing that we are no longer a Christian nation. Seems like he is correct-we are now burning things, you know, similar to effigy's that our counterparts burn worldwide.

From Drudge - pre-emptive o... (Below threshold)

From Drudge - pre-emptive outrage.

'Meant to Be a Warning'...
Vatican: 'Outrageous'...
NYPD: 'Dangerous'...
Holder: 'Idiotic'...
Clinton: 'Disgraceful'...

We're well-trained, we are. Don't piss off the crazies, they might get violent.

It's a trite analogy and an... (Below threshold)

It's a trite analogy and an oversimplification in these instances, but one that would be somewhat applicable.

Under our 1st Amendment, you have a right to cry, "Fire!", in a crowded movie theater. But should you, and would any rational person do so, especially if there isn't a fire?

That analogy applies to that goofy twit in Gainesville and to that Imam in New York City. They have every right to do what they're doing. But in view of the potential ramifications, would it be wise to do what they're doing. Here again, both of them are playing right into the hands of people who want them to do what they're doing, because it will further advance the agenda of those people who are manipulating them.

Religion and patriotism and revenge and exercising what one obstinantly believes to be exercising one's civil rights can drive people to become irrational, especially if they're being manipulated by unscrupulous people.

BTW, #14, I could be wrong, but I'm rather inclined to suspect that I provoked JT to intervene belatedly. You won't grasp this, but it is irrelevant that he disagrees with me on this one particular issue ..., although I'm not so sure that he will, after he gives it some more thought.

I'm just wondering. Let's s... (Below threshold)
recovered liberal democrat:

I'm just wondering. Let's say some wannabe, Islamofascists, cowards attack this church in Florida or any church. I wonder, what the reaction will be at the W.H. or State Dept. or any of the hallowed halls of liberalism? Will they be playing a video of Rev. Wright screaming, "American's chickens.......have come home.....to roost! I think so.

You know we're told constan... (Below threshold)

You know we're told constantly that the crazy muslims are a small minority and we should not paint with a broad brush. How's come the same isn't applied to the folks that want to burn the Koran. I bet the muslims around the world and their leaders won't try to minimize this and ask for tolerance. No the exact opposite is true if one small group of small minded christians does something like this not only will the muslims over react and paint with a broad brush several of our friends on the left will do the same thing.

Actually, JT, if I didn't h... (Below threshold)

Actually, JT, if I didn't have tremendous respect and admiration for you, I wouldn't have bothered to try to reach you.

You overreacted. And BTW, I would never insult YOU or your intelligence, never under ANY circumstances.

You can download a copy of ... (Below threshold)

You can download a copy of the Koran from www.gutenberg.org as well. For this particular example, I think using non low fat bacon is called for.

Presume to speak for you, J... (Below threshold)

Presume to speak for you, JT?

Naw, actually, in view of their lame responses, I was hoping that you would intervene yesterday to come to the rescue of those people who disagreed with me ..., you know, to give me a contest here?

If I didn't think that you were up to the task, I wouldn't have longed for that development here ..., which do refute your dtzy notion that I was disrespectful of you, don't it, guy?

I am so damn glad you're ba... (Below threshold)

I am so damn glad you're back at Wizbang! Keep up the great comments.

I was thinking about burning a Koran on September 11th just to vent a little anger. I guess that makes me Islamophobic? Not. I watched a PowerPoint from 9/11 last night. I WILL NEVER FORGET!!!

SPQR,You presume t... (Below threshold)
Sheik Yur Bouty:


You presume to tell me what I will or will not grasp???

Just keep [email protected]#$ing that chicken.


Jay, well written. I would ... (Below threshold)

Jay, well written. I would suggest you use caution if you intend to do what you described in your essay and post it here or elsewhere. Unlike Christians and Jews, Muslims have a nasty habit of tracking down those who insult Islam in such ways and kill them. Are you sure you have never left clues on here or other blogs that indicate your whereabouts and real name?Do you carry a firearm? I'm sure it hasn't escaped your notice that we are talking about freakin crazy a$$ people here. While I agree with the sentiments you've expressed about doing such a thing, be sure to weigh the potential costs to you and your friends and loved ones.

#26 - the left (with the ex... (Below threshold)
jim m:

#26 - the left (with the exception of the pope obviously) is still following the Neville Chamberlain rule book on dealing with aggressive threats. They seek to appease and mollify at every turn. They cannot conceive of standing up to a bully. Of course the fact that islam tends toward statist dictatorships means that the left feels a sort of kindred spirit with the extremists.

My advice to JT is that if he plays his cards right he could get an NEA pay out. Heck if Piss Christ was worth $15,000 would would a Jr Bacon Koran burger be worth?

Pretty sickening that we ha... (Below threshold)

Pretty sickening that we have to worry about getting hurt or killed by crazies because we decide to do something in our own "free" country. I don't remember feeling this angry when Bush was fighting the murdering thugs.

This president thinks he's improving relations with the Middle East? What the hell is he smoking?

"Muslims have a nasty habit... (Below threshold)
jim m:

"Muslims have a nasty habit of tracking down those who insult Islam in such ways and kill them. "

Too late. Just for thinking of doing it he'll be on someone's list. muslims have already threatened the lives of these people in Florida even if they don't proceed.

Nice JT. First, let me poi... (Below threshold)

Nice JT. First, let me point out that your loathing for pigs is simply disgusting. Why would you waste precious bacon, the candy of the meat world, soiling it in contact with that book when it could be put to any number of better, savory uses? ;-)

"Looking at it pragmatically, I have to wonder: how the hell could the crazies hate us more? What more can they do to express their heightened rage?"

I'm not in the military so it is not really my place to comment. However, that's never stopped me before. If it makes the crazies even crazier, it will be easier for our fighting men and women to find them, cut them from the herd, and um, deal with them. That sounds like a good thing to me.

As for the poster(s) who are worried that this is an offense to moderate(?!?) muslims, so what? Christians are not supposed to get upset when someone desecrates a bible. If I open up a 55 gallon drum of whup a$$ on some tool burning an American flag, I'm the one who goes to jail. (Don't for a moment think that some jail time will stop me.)

We are all surrounded by "freedom of expression" that offends us most every day. Why should muslims be any different? It's part of the social contract we have here in America. (At least for now. Holder is working on rewriting that contract.) If this is so bad and you don't like it, move to a middle eastern country like Saudi Arabia. Let me know (if you can) how that works out for ya.

Look, I shake my head when I hear about acts like this. Not because it is an affront to muslims, they are no more protected in my mind than any other group. What saddens me is that anyone has to attract attention to themselves by desecrating something that someone else (however misguided) holds dear. Don't anyone be fooled. You can reject Islam in any number of ways that don't involve flames. Attracting attention is the sum total of what this book burning is all about.

Personally I wouldn't waste... (Below threshold)

Personally I wouldn't waste a match on that fairytale book.

I don't care what sets off ... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

I don't care what sets off the loonies -- nor do I care to see people walk on egg shells to avoid setting off the loonies. The Islamic Rage Boys will always find something to rage about, because that's what they live for.

But personally, I just don't like the thought of burning books in a free society. (Yes, I'm fully aware of the contradiction there.)

And I sympathize with Gen. Petraeus, who currently holds the most difficult job in the world. He doesn't need anything that will make his job more difficult, especially in that part of the world where a Muslim could just as soon hook up with the good guys as being persuaded by the jihad nutballs over any ridiculous provocation. He's not being PC. He's looking out for his command.

"BTW, #14, I could be wr... (Below threshold)

"BTW, #14, I could be wrong, but I'm rather inclined to suspect that I provoked JT to intervene belatedly. You won't grasp this, but it is irrelevant that he disagrees with me on this one particular issue ..., although I'm not so sure that he will, after he gives it some more thought."
"You overreacted. And BTW, I would never insult YOU or your intelligence, never under ANY circumstances."

So words like "irrational, ignorant, irresponsible and goofy" aren't are not personal insults?

"There are dynamics at play here with which you are not familiar," is not an insult to his intelligence?

A bit arrogant there, are we? And "You won't grasp this..." as well? You're an equal opporunity insulter, eh?

I don't expect you to believe that I, one of your lessers, could figure this out, but I'm pretty sure we're not the ones being manipulated here. As a matter of fact, I think we're all pretty well educated enough on the issue to understand that the ones who manipulate the masses over there are indeed seeking their own power. The one's being manipulted are those dancing in the streets with burning effigies and flags shouting "Death to America". They're being manipulated into voicing the petty slights they feel they've been subjected to; Quran flushings, pictures of Mohammed, etc.

For every one radical Imam leading the charge there are who knows how many mindless Islamo-bots calling for our heads every time they hear the bell ring.

Now this Gainesville pastor may very well be under someone eles's manipulations, but not those here you are so quick to assert your superior knowledge over.

Wrapping Korans in... (Below threshold)
Wrapping Korans in bacon or burning them are cheap shots at all Muslims because you're frustrated by our inability to locate and to neutralize some terrorists who just happen to be Muslims.
It's nice when people start off their posts with a statement that showcases how little they understand the issue. It means you don't have to waste time reading what they say.
"Under our 1st Amendment, y... (Below threshold)
jim m:

"Under our 1st Amendment, you have a right to cry, "Fire!", in a crowded movie theater. But should you, and would any rational person do so, especially if there isn't a fire?" - SPQR

Actually, this is the classic example of how our 1st amendment rights ARE restricted legally. You cannot yell fire in a crowded theater and cause a panic or stampede (unless of course there actually is a fire). I'm really rather surprised at this error, you seemed smarter than that.

Rights can and do have reasonable restrictions. Pissing someone off is generally not held to be one of them.

I wonder what would be more... (Below threshold)

I wonder what would be more insulting. Burning the quran or deep frying it in bacon grease?

"Wrapping Korans in bacon or burning them are cheap shots at all Muslims because you're frustrated by our inability to locate and to neutralize some terrorists who just happen to be Muslims. It's kind of like venting your animosity on all Jews because one shrewd Jewish attorney whupped your ass in court."

What would you suggest? Bowing like good little dhimmis to the islamos who just happen to be muslims?

I believe that a better use... (Below threshold)

I believe that a better use of this Florida church's time would be to study the Koran and then attempt to disseminate the crazy, hateful things in it in comparison to the love, tolerance and freedom of choice exhibited in the New Testament of the Bible. (The parts that make it a uniquely "Christian" document).
The problem with that is that it would get NO attention at all.

I think you have put this w... (Below threshold)

I think you have put this whole thing in its proper prospective and I agree with you. I suddenly have an urge for a BLTK(or Q).

Wrapping Korans in bacon or... (Below threshold)

Wrapping Korans in bacon or burning them are cheap shots at all Muslims because you're frustrated by our inability to locate and to neutralize some almost all terrorists who just happen to be Muslims.

Fixed it for ya.

#43 - I was reluctant to ge... (Below threshold)

#43 - I was reluctant to get into this issue, but now that you've raised it, I'll address it in terms that you will understand, perhaps ...., although I'm not optimistic, in view of what I've read here.

When one serves in the military with good, consciencious (and patriotic) Muslim-Americans in situations in which one relies on them to cover one's back, and they rely on one to cover their back, one establishes a mutual respect and a rapport with them which one won't experience ordinarily under any other circumstances ..., and, oh yeah, one's religion and their religion become irrelevant. Are you getting my drift here?

My point here is that don't tell me that I don't know what the f--k I'm talking about. YOU are the one who is shallow, ignorant and clueless.

SPQR, when you wrote yester... (Below threshold)

SPQR, when you wrote yesterday that JT's silence was in fact agreement with your opinion I said to my self "Uh Oh! You lost the argument right there", even though I thought you already had. I know for a fact JT does not let anyone speak for him.

I wrote yesterday that they should burn the Koran's as scheduled to show the rest of the oppressed world exactly what freedom is. I know at first they will be up in arms pantomimiming hate and demonstrations as ordered but in their soul they will say "My God. The freedoms in America are none that I have ever experienced in my life". So, go ahead, let's give them a life lesson on what America is about. FREEDOM. ww

I am against someone burnin... (Below threshold)
retired military:

I am against someone burning the Koran. The same way I am against someone burning a bible.

Why desecrate something that someone holds holy other than to get them upset.

I am also against the 911 Mosque as I think it falls under the same category.

I also think that it is hypocracy of the highest order that someone who is for the 911 Mosque get upset at the burning of the Koran.

Would burning a bible cause this much havoc especially if it is done in Iran? Or Times square?

Look at the National Endowment of the arts supporting the "artpiece" called "Piss Christ". Liberals werent moaning about that. Nor was anyone in the Islamic countries.

Seems it is just fine to slam Christianity but leave Islam alone. IMO neither is acceptable.

As for radical militant Islamics. kill them all and let Allah sort them out. This is the same way I feel about all other radical militant crazies in the world.

That they can burn a Koran ... (Below threshold)

That they can burn a Koran tells me everything you need to know about America. That they want to tells me everything I need to know about them.

TimmerI agree comp... (Below threshold)
retired military:


I agree completely.

Also if you look at the act itself it tells you everything you need to know about people who are talking about it.

Say you are going to burn a Koran and worldwide outrage amongst the UN, MSM, and liberals.

Say you are going to burn a Bible and crickets chirping amongst the UN, MSM, and liberals.

I am not saying I want this... (Below threshold)

I am not saying I want this guy to burn them but since he has his fifteen minutes, he is going to. I am saying that one thing america has that other countries do not possess is absolute freedom of expression. I don't think middle easteners have any idea about what freedom truly is. This will give them pause after they are pissed. I think we do not appreciate our freedoms as much because we always had them. No preaching here, just opining. I would like to show the muslim leaders we are not afraid of them (like they did to the Dutch) and a citizen can do whatever he or she wants to express their views as long as no one is physically harmed. A very good lesson. We should all be supporters of that. ww

Fun idea, but it seems like... (Below threshold)

Fun idea, but it seems like a waste of good bacon. Why not just drizzle the grease over the Koran after you're done cooking said bacon?

Actually WikiWillie @ #50, ... (Below threshold)

Actually WikiWillie @ #50, I figured that if JT and/or Rick agreed with me, they would see that I was handling myself okay, and, therefore, that there wasn't any need for them to intervene and/or to give me any support ..., and I figured, also, that if they disagreed with me, they would come to the rescue of others here who disagreed with me, because of the lame arguments that I was getting from those who disagreed with me.

Don't say what I didn't say, and don't read meanings into my words which aren't there, and don't try to second-guess my motives or my intentions ...., and, oh yeah, expand your horizons by getting away from your preconceived ideas and biases. The world is changing. Republicans aren't monolithic in their thinking.

I appreciated your input.

SPQR, I have no idea who th... (Below threshold)

SPQR, I have no idea who the heck you are and I am positive you know nothing about me, so don't go there. I am saying you implied directly or indirectly to the fact that JT thinks like you on the subject because he didn't get involved. You did it. You said it. Live with it buddy. You need to learn about disagreement and not get personal. ww

SPQR,Please go bac... (Below threshold)
Sheik Yur Bouty:


Please go back an re-read your first paragraph on comment 56. I could easily have said the same thing about JT and Rick not commenting on that thread, stating that their lack of intervention meant that they agreed with me, not you. That's how utterly meaningless your argument is on that point.

Please just stop. I know you've been commenting here for a little over 2 years. I don't claim to have read every comment you've made, but I will say that this is the first time you've come across as this irrational (to me at least). Seriously, you're starting to sound all Charles Johnson.

Yeah, right, #57 & #58, you... (Below threshold)

Yeah, right, #57 & #58, you're rational and I'm the one who is irrational. Uh huh. Sure. LOL!!!! What's wrong with that picture?

Just watch the news, and read a newspaper. Sane and intelligent people out here in the real world agree with me and not with you. But I'm sure that you've been experiencing that, um, prejudice all of your life. Geezez, unreal. LOL!!!!!!

All I can say is some peopl... (Below threshold)

All I can say is some people you just never know. Emotional and reading comprehension problems for sure. ww

My point here is t... (Below threshold)
My point here is that don't tell me that I don't know what the f--k I'm talking about. YOU are the one who is shallow, ignorant and clueless.
The fact is, you DON'T know what the fuck you're talking about. You think the Koran is being burned because a pastor is frustrated that we can't find someone hiding in a cave in Afghanistan?

ryan a made a similar mistake in the previous comment section that covered this. But, as he wasn't being a complete douche bag, he was politely engaged.

You, however, are an arrogant twat who takes on straw men and demands people recognize your mental masturbation as great intellectual prowess.

Get a clue.

...although I have to admit... (Below threshold)

...although I have to admit, wrapping it in bacon made me chuckle and evil chuckle...I'm not proud of it, I'm just...bacon! That kills me.

MMMM, bacon. ww... (Below threshold)

MMMM, bacon. ww

I am for burning all Korans... (Below threshold)

I am for burning all Korans found in the possession of islamic terrorists.

Not that I expect SPQR to r... (Below threshold)

Not that I expect SPQR to return to this thread, but I'm saying it anyway.

SPQR, I suspect that in many ways we're on the same page. However, you could benefit a great deal from learning something called "decorum". There's a whole lot of people I agree with out there and as many or more that I disagree with. But if there's one thing I've learned in life from interaction with others when discussing disagreements it's "don't insult me and I won't insult you back".

The moment someone prefaces their argument with the assertion that their opponent is ignorant, irrational, irresponsible or any combination of negative assumptions of their personal character, they lose not only the argument but any right to the high ground at any point in the future.

The moment one begins their argument with a declaration of intellectual superiority by exclaiming their opponent "won't understand what I'm about to say" no one will give a damn about what you're "about to say".

And as soon as you act as if you understand that something unsaid by another does NOT mean a) that they agree with you and/or b) they're too stupid to know that thing, the closer you will be to having a discussion that will reap more rewards than a, "Cram it!" response to what you have to say.

Your arrogance throughout this thread through a myriad of assumptions about others here was totally unwarranted and unnecessary.






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