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Bring On The Bad Guys!

There's a Congressional candidate in Iowa Ohio who's having a bit of a publicity problem over his hobby. It turns out that Rich Iott likes taking part in historic re-enactments, including World War II, and sometimes he takes the part of a German.

In similar news, Electronic Arts has tweaked its latest iteration of its "Medal Of Honor" video game. In the Afghanistan scenarios, players could choose to play on the Coalition side or the Taliban side -- and people didn't like the idea of gamers taking on the role of the Taliban.

I've been a gamer of various sorts most of my life. Not so much video games, but board games, trading-card games, and role-playing games. In a lot of those games, conflict is essential -- player vs. player or players vs. the game master.

And in a lot of cases, that means that I've had to play as the bad guy. In "Fighting Steel," a World War II naval surface warfare game, I've played on all four sides -- American, British, German, and Japanese sides. In other World War II games, I've occasionally taken the side of the Nazis.

It's a fact of gaming. If there are bad guys, sooner or later you're going to have to play them. Because without bad guys, there's no one for the good guys to fight.

In one Tom Clancy novel, the United States is under attack from a biological weapon (weaponized Ebola). One of the experts from the Army brings up the time he developed a plan to carry out just such an attack against the US as part of an exercise. Another character is appalled -- here's a United States Army doctor who's planned out, in detail, how to kill millions of Americans.

The response is simple: attack and defense are two sides of the same coin. To properly develop a defense, one needs to face a realistic plan for attack -- the more effective, the better. And that means that those who are tasked with defending us have to understand how to best attack.

The players in Medal Of Honor aren't that concerned with the politics of the actual conflict in Afghanistan. They're more interested in testing themselves against other players. And the game designers at EA are not interested in the politics of the war, either -- they're trying to keep players' interest by using a real-world model. And their concern isn't in portraying the politics of the fight, but balancing faithfulness to the reality of the situation with game balance, giving each side an equal chance to win.

A little while ago, some folks brought up the TV series "Hogan's Heroes." A lot of people had a problem with a comedy set in a Nazi prisoner-of-war camp (not a concentration camp) and using Nazis as sources of humor.

By an odd coincidence, nearly all the major German characters were played by Jews. Col. Klink, Sgt. Schultz, General Burkhalter, and Major Hochstetter were all portrayed by Jewish actors. Further, three of them had fled Nazi Germany, and a fourth actor -- Robert Clary, who played Corporal LeBeau -- had actually spent three years in a Nazi concentration camp.

Werner Klemperer, the actor who played Col. Klink, had a few conditions before he took the role. He insisted that Klink be a lackluster Nazi, and that he never be allowed to "win."

So, what do Mr. Iott's historical recreations, computer games, war games, and "Hogan's Heroes" all have in common? They're all make-believe. They all recreate actual historical conflicts, with people assuming the roles of participants in those conflicts.

And in each case, some people will have to take on the roles of the good guys and bad guys. It's the way the game is played. You can't be a hero unless you have a villain to defeat -- and the tougher the villain, the greater the triumph.

One final point: at their core, the players all know that they're just playing. They know it's make-believe. They know they're just playing a role. The ones to worry about are those who actually take things seriously -- the Neo-Nazis, the racial supremacists, the actual terrorists.

And, to a lesser degree, those who have trouble separating the fantasy from reality. They're most found among those who get hysterical about the fantasy -- and they're most often not actually players.

Update: I forgot to insert this one paragraph:

One of the most fun games I've played in the last year required me to portray a drunken Communist gnome on a sinking nuclear submarine. I'm a six-foot-tall teetotaling capitalist, but that game is seriously nuts. I've also played a game where I was a brain-eating zombie, and that was also a fun (except when I got blasted in the face with the shotgun).


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Comments (95)

There you go again, spoilin... (Below threshold)

There you go again, spoiling the narrative...

Jay Tea:Please cor... (Below threshold)

Jay Tea:

Please correct your post: I realize we're just "fly over county" out here but the candidate you're talking about is from OHIO not IOWA. (I know both state names have only four letters, and I can understand how that's confusing.) The Iowa Republican Congressional candidates are conservatives who do not participate as Germans in WWII reenactments.

Iowa voter

Make believe, so they are h... (Below threshold)
Don L:

Make believe, so they are harmless? That's why the morally corrupt left is forcing upon our children, books like "Heather Has Two Mommies" -just harmless games?

Dan Quayle understood the implications perfectly, when he took on Murphy Brown. This is precisely how the immoral left seeks to convert the moral and the unaware -through harmless games.

It is propaganda -and it works best disguised as fun stuff.

Jay Tea:I just pok... (Below threshold)
James H:

Jay Tea:

I just poked through the Atlantic article that broke this. If I were an Ohio voter, I'd be distinctly uncomfortable with this guy's activities. He's clearly dancing along a very thin line between inoffensive behavior and offensive behavior.

Jay Tea, Something else to ... (Below threshold)

Jay Tea, Something else to consider, for many years the U.S. military has utilized a concept called OPFOR for "opposing force" which are specialized American units organized and trained to behave like America's enemies. Their purpose is to train regular American forces by figthing realistically like the enemy during wargames.

It's this sort of thing tha... (Below threshold)

It's this sort of thing that keeps people in the right mind from being involved in politics. Which explains why the majority of congress isn't in their right mind.

James, what was so damning in that artical? I suspect the real problem with this guy is the R next to his name not his former hobbie. I mean you support Obama right, he has direct ties to domestic terrorist, he sat in Rev Wright's church for 20 years, he got his house through shady deal with a convicted felon. All of that seems much more relevant to his fitness for office than this silliness over a war reenactment.

This seems to be a case of ... (Below threshold)

This seems to be a case of party affiliation trumping every other consideration.

If he had a "D" after his name, I still wouldn't be concerned.

I used to be a member of the Society for Creative Anachronism - a medievalist group - it didn't mean I wanted to see the Middle Ages brought back (I really, really like hot running water and modern medicine...) - it meant I was looking to have fun and chase the ladies. (And of the ones I caught (and was caught by) well... The goods looked nice, and the odds were good, but the goods were also kind of odd, if I may so..)

He got into it when his son was interested, did a number of different times and sides, and dropped it when his son did. I really don't see the problem here.

JLawson, actually you see t... (Below threshold)

JLawson, actually you see the problem perfectly it has everything to do with R next to his name. I've asked the trolls a dozen times on this and the other post on this how this non sense stacks up with the real issue of Obama's real world not play acting associations, the silence is deafening.

Reinactments are a 'living ... (Below threshold)

Reinactments are a 'living history' lesson for those of us who didn't live in those times or have a direct connection to those events. They are made up of individuals who really care about authenticity and making sure that we don't forget that these events were more than just pages in a book. Real people took part in these wars. How they lived, worked, fought and even died should never be forgotten.

John -I know. The... (Below threshold)

John -

I know. The problem is with party affiliation, and little to nothing else. If he had a D, the usual trolls would be completely unconcerned.

What's next?

"He played D&D when he was a teen-ager! Must be a Satanist, therefore shouldn't hold office!" "She used to be a vegetarian, but abandoned it when she was bought out by the National Beef Council!" "He drives a car, so he's been bought out by Big Oil!"

The desperation isn't appealing - and the more they pull up stuff like this, the less credible the claims become.

Makes me wonder if we're not looking at the last thrashing of the Democratic Machine...

Most Americans find the Naz... (Below threshold)

Most Americans find the Nazi SS revolting.

Generally the Waffen-SS was not directly involved in the Holocaust, as the separately organised Allgemeine SS was responsible for the death camps, although many members of it and the SS-Totenkopfverbände subsequently became members of the Waffen-SS, forming the initial core of the Totenkopf Division.[14][15] Many Waffen-SS members and units were responsible for war crimes against civilians and allied servicemen. For members who did not take part in them, they had to face the fact there was a "guilt by association" that attached. After the war the Schutzstaffel organisation as a whole was held to be a criminal organization by the post-war German government, due to the undeniable evidence that it was responsible for serious war crimes. Formations such as the Dirlewanger and Kaminski Brigades were singled out, and many others were involved in large-scale massacres or smaller-scale atrocities such as the Houtman affair[127] or murders perpetrated by Heinrich Boere.

The short list:

* Wormhoudt massacre by SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, 1940, Belgium * Le Paradis massacre by SS Totenkopf, 1940, France * Oradour-sur-Glane massacre by SS Das Reich, 1944, France * Ochota massacre by SS Kaminski Brigade, 1944, Poland * Wola massacre by SS-Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger, 1944 Poland * Huta Pieniacka massacre by SS-Galizien division 1944, Poland * Tulle massacre by SS Das Reich, 1944, France * Marzabotto massacre by SS Reichsführer-SS, 1944, Italy * Malmedy massacre by Kampfgruppe Peiper part of 1st SS Panzer Division, 1944, Belgium * Ardeatine massacre by two SS Officers, 1944, Italy * Distomo massacre by 4th SS Polizei Panzergrenadier Division, 1944, Greece * Sant'Anna di Stazzema massacre by SS Reichsführer-SS, 1944, Italy * Ardenne Abbey massacre 12th SS Panzer Division, 1944, France

Ah yes, now that's relaxation, and in Iott's view fun for his young son also.

What kind of person would want to dress up and emulate the actions of war criminals who massacred thousands?

Sick Republican f*cks, that's who.

Yes they are make believe..... (Below threshold)

Yes they are make believe.....no buts about it.

A lot of people have a very hard time distinguishing from real life and make believe. I got all kinds of opinions as to why they take make believe more serious and perhaps in an extreme they may be right.

Now for the real but. I was an Airforce Reservist....a member of ground forces. Yes the Air force has ground forces. In fact back then when the air force numbered around 750,000 men and women maybe 5-10,000 were pilots. The rest were support. Every man and woman in the Air Force were schooled in base defense, and were expectd to be able to fight if need be. To this end were we trained and retrained every year had to be requalified in; gasp, perimeter and base defense. To that end we had aggressors. And the better the aggressor the better the exercise. I loved it. Some times we would get to go up against Army Rangers.

They were good. Very good. In fact even though I grew up out in the woods and am part native american and have some of the most amazing genetic traights such as hearing eyesight and reflexes, this one sucker crept up on me. I never forgot that. Course his mistake was touching me. The suprised look in his eyes when the barrel of my AR magically appeared in his face.

The aggressors were simulating Soviets or communist block. It is necessary. What makes Americans the best warrior on earth is our willingness to portend to the enemy. To the best of our ability immitate them for exercise. It goes to knowing them.

I believe in practice, practice, practice. Train it real, and tough. I was happy to hear the men from DesWarI say on the news that it was a piece of cake. They had trained harded than the actual battle was. For those who thought that maybe the Air Reserve wasn't tough enough. Try 23 and 1/2 hours of constant battle training. You'll become a horse and learn to sleep standing up. And I know there are millions of guys out there who know what I am talking about.

The naysayers aginst playing the enemy in games.......You never know when one of them might be the next real MOH winner. BTW Jay I like the MOH series too.

When I play Star Wars Battl... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

When I play Star Wars Battlefront II, I almost always take the side of the Empire blowin' up rebels and the Republic clones smashing droids.

I guess that makes me a democracy-loving fascist.

And by the way, Wizbang hosts, isn;t it time to ban Dane? He's gone way past annoying and is now simply offensive.

Hey look, it was all just g... (Below threshold)

Hey look, it was all just good clean fun!

I wonder if Iott's Nazi SS admiration group re-enacted this one....

The Wormhoudt massacre (or Wormhout massacre) was the mass murder of 80 unarmed British and French POWs by the Waffen SS during the Battle of France in May 1940.

After their surrender, soldiers from the 2nd Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment, the Cheshire Regiment, and Royal Artillery as well as French soldiers in charge of a military depot were taken to a barn near Wormhout and Esquelbecq on 28 May 1940. When there were nearly 100 men inside, up to 12 soldiers from the 1st SS Division Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler, threw stick-grenades into the building killing many POWs. Two groups of five survivors were taken outside and shot in the back as the grenades had failed to kill everyone.

Iott was a member for several years.

Please don't ban Dane he's ... (Below threshold)

Please don't ban Dane he's comical. I mean he's doing all the heavy lifting for his domestic terrorist loving president. After all who else can present such logic and intellectual arguements like "most people hate Nazi's" I mean the man is a genius. Seriously who will we have to laugh at once the resident racist is gone?

Hey Dane can you please put your superior intellect to this question:

Why do you and your friends on the left love the president who associates with domestic terroristst that have tried to kill americans? Why do you and your friends on the left love a president that sits in the church of a unamerican racist for 20 years? Why do you and your leftist friend support a president that associates and gets land deals from a convicted felon racketeer?

And I bet Iott and his 13 y... (Below threshold)

And I bet Iott and his 13 year old son had loads of Dad-Son bonding time pouring over the history if the Wiking SS, including this marvelous account of their heroic efforts.

Members of the [Wiking SS] division's bakery column, led by Obersturmführer Braunnagel and Untersturmführer Kochalty, assisted Einsatzgruppe A in rounding up Ukrainian Jews. Witnesses report that the Jewish victims were forced to run a gauntlet formed by soldiers who would beat them as they passed, and when they reached the end of the gauntlet, Einsatzgruppen officers murdered them and their bodies were pushed into a bomb crater. The German 1st Mountain Division is also suspected of being implicated. Between 50 and 60 Jews were killed in this manner, as a part of the larger Einsatzgruppe operation which resulted in over 700 murders[8]

Good times! Who needs video games when you can dress up in SS uniforms and relive the actions of your heroes?

My dad used to do Civil War... (Below threshold)

My dad used to do Civil War re-enactments. Our ancestor was a Union soldier so he'd play Union during the events.

Then at night he'd sneak into a Confederate uniform and join the other side. The Rebels were serious about their re-enactments and they were serious about drinking bourbon, singing songs, and having a great time. They were a lot more fun than the Union re-enactors, so Dad partied with the enemy.

In no way were those Confederate re-enactors willing or interested in bringing about slavery. None of them were racists at all. They just loved their Southern heritage and their military prowess, which nearly won them the War.

When I read the smear against this re-enactor candidate it made me sick to my stomach. Anyone should be free to examine and study anything they wish, in whatever way they find illuminating. Re-enactments are a great way to learn. This reminds me once again why I despise liberals.

And did the Wiking SS have ... (Below threshold)

And did the Wiking SS have their heroes?

You betcha!

Nazi superstars like Joseph Mengele! He was one "Mama Grizzly" when it came to the extermination of the Jews!

Josef Mengele

The notorious Dr. Josef Mengele, served with the SS Division Wiking during its early campaigns. According to all accounts, he performed the normal duties of a combat medic, even being awarded the Iron Cross for saving two wounded men from a tank. After being wounded, Mengele was deemed unfit for combat and was absorbed into the SS Nazi concentration camp system, where he gained his infamy. Mengele was very proud of his Waffen SS service and his front-line decorations.

What's not to like about the Nazi SS? For Rich Iott, apparently nothing.

Dane, your needle is stuck ... (Below threshold)

Dane, your needle is stuck you should nudge the record player.

I believe one of the warnin... (Below threshold)

I believe one of the warning signs of insanity is the inability to distinguish fantasy from reality.

RPG, Role Playing Game - Fantasy
Good friends with William Ayers, terrorist - Reality

I'm begining to suspect tha... (Below threshold)

I'm begining to suspect that Dane, Lee Ward, Galoob etc., is one of the editors for this blog and posts these things just to stir up the "poop."

There is no way a sane, logical, person could argue that dressing up as a reinactor, for historical purposes, equates to being a Nazi sympathizer. With that logic, as has been pointed out earlier, those that play the Rebels in Civil War reinactments, are slavery sympathizers, etc., Hell those guys that do LARP, the ones that dress up and have mock sword fights and such, want to return to Monarchies, with that logic.

Using that logic, any actor that has portrayed, say Stalin, sympathizes with the greatest mass murderer in history and is unfit for political office?

How about the Obama media director that thought Mao was a great role model? He is undoubtably a mass murderer, where was the outcry from Dane/Lee, to rid us of her...she is a blatant sympathizer.

Your arguments are illogical, strawmen, with no basis for reason, the good thing about this is it has garnered sympathy and support for the candidate; another win for the Conservatives.

Let the good times roll. An... (Below threshold)

Let the good times roll. And you know... family value republicans really know how to raise their kids.

I mean, come on now, how many of you fathers out there wouldn't want your son to dress up and emulate the actions of the Wiking SS?

I mean, really!

On March 28, 1945, eighty Jews from evacuation column, though fit for the journey, were shot by three members of the Waffen SS division Wiking and five military policemen. On April 4, twenty members of another column that left Graz tried to escape near Eggenfeld, not far from Gratkorn. Soldiers from the 5 SS Division Wiking that were temporarily stationed there apprehended them in the forest near Mt. Eggenfeld and then herded them in a gully, where they were shot. On April 7 and 11, 1945 members of the division executed another eighteen escaped prisoners.[9]

Good clean fun!

By that category, Gmac, Dan... (Below threshold)

By that category, Gmac, Dane went insane a long time back in this thread.

What happened, Dane - did they switch you to a 'pay by the post' slot or something? If so, could you please ask them for some different talking points? You've worn these out completely.

(Does the above imply that you're incapable of forming an opinion or coherent argument by yourself? Why, yes... I believe it does.)

And Fox News is now reporti... (Below threshold)

And Fox News is now reporting on this issue with an exclusive story straight from the bunker.


Whats funny is Dane is prob... (Below threshold)

Whats funny is Dane is probably paid to post his idiotic rantings about SS sympathizers by George Soros.

If there are going to be re... (Below threshold)

If there are going to be re-enactments then there must be people willing to portray both/all sides. My husband does Civil War re-enactments. He has (expensive, because it's not cheap) gear to portray either side and has done so on many occasions.
Most of these people are very serious and insistent on as much authenticity in the dress and gear and the re-enactments themselves, as possible.
From what I have read there appears to be no there, there to this story except in the small, silly, little minds, of the perpetual whining class.

My friends like it when I d... (Below threshold)

My friends like it when I do my Obama impersonation - does that mean that I want to bankrupt the United States, impose social nannyism and think there are 57 states? I think not.

You ain't going to believe ... (Below threshold)

You ain't going to believe this but when I was a kid I enjoyed playing cowboys and Indians. OH NO!!!!

I really don't know who Dan... (Below threshold)

I really don't know who Dane's trying to convice here. Most people with experience of the real world (as opposed to the 'reality-based' thinkers) understand what historical reenactment is. Maybe he thinks if he just keeps repeating himself enough times, we'll all go "Dang! How could we have been so BLIND!!"

As it is, he sounds like a used car salesman after you've rejected the really sweet deal he's offering...

Hmm...being out of a job I ... (Below threshold)

Hmm...being out of a job I could use some money. Maybe I could get a job like Danes from Soros. I would get paid and still make the Dems look like idiots. Win-Win.

"From what I have read ther... (Below threshold)

"From what I have read there appears to be no there, there to this story except in the small, silly, little minds, of the perpetual whining class."

Think of them as political tree frogs. Their voice is very much out of proportion to their size. They were taken seriously for a while - but now they're just so much background noise.

"Maybe he thinks if he just... (Below threshold)

"Maybe he thinks if he just keeps repeating himself enough times"

That's what DNC echo chambers do. Requires no thought at all.

Dane sure does know a lot a... (Below threshold)

Dane sure does know a lot about the SS maybe he's not telling us something. I'm beginning to suspect there's more to our little Nazi friend than we thought.

Shorter Dane: "Nazis are ba... (Below threshold)

Shorter Dane: "Nazis are bad, mmmkay?"

If the re-enactors were recreating the atrocities, then we'd have a problem. Re-enacting actual battles? Not quite the same.


"...those who have trouble ... (Below threshold)

"...those who have trouble separating the fantasy from reality..." You mean Obama voters?

Dane dropped the turd in th... (Below threshold)

Dane dropped the turd in the uninal Mr Mackey.

BluesHarper... Me too. And... (Below threshold)

BluesHarper... Me too. And even though I am Kiowa Sioux, sometimes I was the cowboy!!!
Oh NOooooes. teh hawwah

Shorter Dane: "Naz... (Below threshold)
Shorter Dane: "Nazis are bad, mmmkay?"

If the re-enactors were recreating the atrocities, then we'd have a problem. Re-enacting actual battles? Not quite the same.


Shorter Jay: "What wrong with dressing like a Nazi?"

In other words, in Jay's sick world it's ok to emulate Adolf Hitler... dress like him, goosestep like a Nazi, do the raised arm salute, even recreate some of Hilter's famous speeches... as long as you don't... you know, kill anybody.

Dane, simple question-... (Below threshold)
Brian The Adequate:

Dane, simple question-

How do you propose holding a war reenactment without someone being willing to play the bad guys?

A reenactment without both sides is just a parade.

Per Dane, Halloween must be... (Below threshold)

Per Dane, Halloween must be pretty freaky. My kids liked to dress up like Dracula. Now we all know what that means.

Anthony Hopkins must be the devil himself for being in the movie Silence Of The Lambs.

Wait a minute... I saw a Unicorn last Halloween. What's that mean?

Dane??? Was that you in that costume?

BH, It means that Dan Rathe... (Below threshold)

BH, It means that Dan Rather needs to get Obama's ride back in the stable.

Dane,Is Benecio del ... (Below threshold)

Is Benecio del Toro an evil person?

I wonder if Dane has a shri... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

I wonder if Dane has a shrine to Che in his room.

hey Dane, why aren't you an... (Below threshold)

hey Dane, why aren't you answering the casting calls for obambi's campaign appearances?


You haven't heard about that?

Well, basically, the dems are so "popular" they actually have casting calls out for people to attend their rallies!!


I wonder if any corpse-men volunteered?

It's probably because everyone is so busy working after the completion of "RECOVERY SUMMER" baby!!


I've been having fun watchi... (Below threshold)
Magic Logician:

I've been having fun watching the right wingers defend this guy. It will be interesting to see what they say when they unearth pictures of a Democratic candidate in Vietcong pajamas at a Vietnam War re-enactment. Only then will we find out what the right wing really thinks about history buffs, and something tells me it won't be what they are saying they think now!

Magic Logician,Hav... (Below threshold)
Sheik Yur Bouty:

Magic Logician,

Have you heard of this new fangled thing on the internet? It's called Google. It let's you search for things, like, oh, I don't know...Vietnam War Reenactment?

It's really fast too! Only took a few seconds.

@Sheik, yeah, I know there ... (Below threshold)
Magic Logician:

@Sheik, yeah, I know there are Vietnam War reenactments. Where did you get the idea that I didn't know? The question is what the right wingers will do when some Democratic candidate is pictured in Vietcong pajamas in one of those reenactments. That's when we'll all find out about your regard for history buffs, and I suspect it won't be what you're saying today.

ML,I suspect you c... (Below threshold)
Sheik Yur Bouty:


I suspect you could not be more wrong.


ML,Well, considering... (Below threshold)

Well, considering we only have to google "Jane Fonda" to find an actual leftist traitor palling around with actual Viet Cong, why would we need to make one up based on a war re-enactment?
What is your opinion on Marc Garlasco?

And Jane Fonda ran for offi... (Below threshold)
Magic Logician:

And Jane Fonda ran for office when? BTW, tell us about the wingnut hero, Mel Gibson. Come on, these people are actors. Every last one of them is crazier than a shithouse rat, and dumber.

In any case, I have no doubt that if a Democratic candidate popped up in a Vietcong costume at a reenactment, the wingnuts would have a field day with it, just like the Democrats are having with this Republican showing his true colors.

By the way, why couldn't he have played an American soldier in the reenactments?

We have a new contestant Ma... (Below threshold)

We have a new contestant Magic something or the other, his new trick reading the minds of conservatives. Here's the deal there is so much dirty laudry in the democrat closet that no one needs to screw around with something so stupid as which side a candidate played in a war reenactment. I've pointed out some of the nastiness that surround Obama but so far no commentary from the enlightened ones here.

Magic Logician - how do you... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

Magic Logician - how do you know that those are his "true colors"?

I'll grant that performing as an SS is not the smartest thing to do, but considering that this man also re-enacted American soldiers, ho can you claim that the SS re-enactment reveals his "true colors"?

And if a Dem candidate re-enacted something wearing Viet Cong pajamas or an NVA uniform, I wouldn't be too concerned, even if it was John Francois Kerry.

First off, someone above be... (Below threshold)

First off, someone above beat me to it. George Soros, the hero of the left such as Dane and Galoob, is a direct link to the Nazi's and their machine but they embrace him anyway. Yet they cannot stand someone that actually does military re-enactments like they do for WWII, WWI and the Civil War. Although I don't get the motivation, I do know that all participants are history lovers and pretty much know the casualties of the sides they are representing. Of course the left does not understand history, as they constantly try to rewrite it all the time. Plus the uneducated massed of the left probably do not even know what Nazi is or SS for that matter. At most they know "it's bad" but that is it. Of course the liberal's like Dane have to play the asshole role even though they understand what re-enacters do. You lefty fellow's are pretty shallow, juvenile group. ww

I'll grant that performi... (Below threshold)
Magic Logician:

I'll grant that performing as an SS is not the smartest thing to do

Gee, do ya think so? Look, if there really is a pic of a Democratic candidate (or office holder) in Vietcong pajamas (BTW, the NVA was the formal army; the Vietcong were irregulars drawn mainly from the South), I'd be at the head of the line telling him to get the hell out of there.

His offense wouldn't be crypto-communism, it would be felony stupidity. But I guess the wingnut support for this guy proves something I've always said to people: "It's impossible to embarrass a dog or a Republican."

ML -"In any case, ... (Below threshold)

ML -

"In any case, I have no doubt that if a Democratic candidate popped up in a Vietcong costume at a reenactment, the wingnuts would have a field day with it, just like the Democrats are having with this Republican showing his true colors."

So, in your view, a Democrat found as a VC re-enactor is showing his true colors. A very revealing statement, and it explains why you are ready to paint this candidate with that brush. Don't try to argue that I'm misinterpreting - your paragraph clearly implies that very thing.

"By the way, why couldn't he have played an American soldier in the reenactments?"

Already answered at least once, to those paying attention. To quote #39, "A reenactment without both sides is just a parade."

You might want to change screen names - your current one is misleading. "Logic" is nowhere to be found in your statements.

I've met people who played ... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

I've met people who played German re-enactors and they're some of the most patriotic Americans. They do a valuable service by highlighting the heroism of our own boys. Ditto for those portraying Rebs and Yanks in CW re-enactments, including those I was with at Wilson's Creek in '91.

A pox on you libs who continually scream about "wingnuts." Sod off, swampy.

At least he is role playing... (Below threshold)

At least he is role playing. Barry is really a marxist and he aint acting.

Let's see... the most frequ... (Below threshold)

Let's see... the most frequent and popular Hitler impersonator alive today has to be Mel Brooks. I guess he's a real Nazi, too.

And I recall a Hogan's Heroes where Larry Hovis impersonated Hitler.

Amazing how many people who claim to represent the "reality based community" can't separate play-acting with actual beliefs...


J - The great comic Jack Be... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

J - The great comic Jack Benny wore a Nazi uniform in 1942's To Be or Not To Be with Carol Lombard. Benny's father, a Jew, was utterly outraged, but Benny begged his dad to watch the film -- which he did, and he understood instantly that his son only wore that uniform to tell a terrific story of helping people escape from the Nazis.

(If you haven't seen this movie, which sadly was Carol Lombard's last, you really should. It's a masterpiece, IMHO.)

From the website of the "re... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

From the website of the "reenactor group" this dumbass belongs to:

"Nazi Germany had no problem in recruiting the multitudes of volunteers willing to lay down their lives to ensure a "Nwe and Free Europe," free of the threat of Communism. National Socialism was seen by many in Holland, Denmark, Norway, Finland, and other eastern European and Balkan countries as the protector of personal freedom and their very way of life, despite the true underlying totalitarian (and quite twisted, in most cases) nature of the movement. Regardless, thousands upon thousands of valiant men died defending their respective countries in the name of a better tomorrow. We salute these idealists; no matter how unsavory the Nazi government was, the front-line soldiers of the Waffen-SS (in particular the foreign volunteers) gave their lives for their loved ones and a basic desire to be free."

NOW do you get it, Wizbangers? This guy isn't playing Nazi because "somebody had to." He's doing it because he "salutes these idealists."

And by "idealists" he means "traitorous thugs who joined the armed forces of their enemies because of a twisted racist ideology."

In other words, he's the one re-writing history, changing traitors into idealists. What a sick fuck. And he's got his KID believing the fucking Waffen -SS were fucking IDEALISTIC HEROES. And you guys are defending him.

I mean, really. Do any of you geniuses believe the fucking Waffen-SS was fighting "to be free???!!??"

It's not the dressing up that bothers me. I understand reenactments. It's that paragraph from that website. How could anybody belong to a group that spouts romanticised whitewashed horseshit like that? If Iott isn't too evil to be in Congress, he's way too stoooopid.

It's late, and I don't feel... (Below threshold)
James H:

It's late, and I don't feel like hashing out a gazillion arguments. But considering this thread veered into geekdom, I give you three words:

Nazi Re-enactor Furries.

Good evening.

Bruce -Sorry, that... (Below threshold)

Bruce -

Sorry, that ship sailed a few hours back. Dane went off-shift, poor sucker's likely to have been fired because he couldn't come up with ANYTHING viable on this. They'll have to get some other poor schlub to come on as Dane and start screaming 'RAAAACIST!' and 'NAZI!!!!!' - here's hoping he's got more entertainment value than the last one.

Look, I know how the left is supposed to be so 'tolerant', and so open-minded. I've dated and cohabitated for a while with a self-proclaimed Wiccan, (didn't end well, she ended up stealing my car when she got tired of living in the middle of nowhere) and I also was a member of the SCA for a few years. And a Mensa member, as well as done the D&D thing. This doesn't mean I want to bring back the Middle Ages or kings or the idea of fealty to feudal lords, or go adventuring in deep caverns looking for goblins and gelatinous cubes to slay while wearing leather armor and using a rusty sword. (Just until I can kill a troll and find something better, of course.)

The Mensans? Mostly harmless, as Douglas Adams described the Earth in Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy. I will say, however, the women were as a whole somewhat less crazy than in the SCA and if you clean up well the chances of hooking up are really good. Even met my wife at a Mensa event - her first, and we were just what each other was looking for. Quit Mensa shortly after that - didn't need to look any further...

Also, I understand it's the political season, and Democratic candidates are avoiding being seen with Obama. The House is likely to flip, and the Senat's getting pretty close to it. You're frustrated, and angry, and looking for something, ANYTHING, you can use to get your mojo back, to get some sort of political momentum going.

And it's just not happening. The wheels are spinning like some guy from southern CA trying to drive on snow-covered ice in North Dakota. You got no traction, and you don't understand why.

Tell ya what - try showing some of the same vaunted tolerance you show any Democratic candidate. Try campaigning on the actual issues, instead of looking for shit in people's background that isn't relevant. And no - this isn't relevant. I wouldn't think it relevant for a Democrat, either - and unless I'm wrong, neither would you.

Maybe it's time to give up the 'reality-based' thinking, Bruce. It's dug us a deep damn hole, and a lot of folks that used to buy it are just abandoning it. Just maybe it's time to rethink a few things.

Nazi Re-enactor Furries?</p... (Below threshold)

Nazi Re-enactor Furries?


I shall smite you with my +12 Rattan Sword of Blazing Fury, James H! Roll 2d6, and prepare to die!

I got me Force Grip, JLaw. ... (Below threshold)
James H:

I got me Force Grip, JLaw. Kinda like kung fu grip, but much more personal. I find your lack of faith disturbing ...

I don't mean to be rude, bu... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

I don't mean to be rude, but who asked for your life story, Mr Lawson?

I just joined this thread to point out that this dude Iott isn't just your regular run-of-the-mill reenactor. He and his friends apparently (according to their website, at least) CELEBRATE the "idealism" and "heroism' of the Waffen-SS. The Waffen. Fucking. SS.

I don't live in Armpit, Ohio, or Athlete's Foot, Iowa, or whatever godforsaken district Iott is running in, so I guess that's why I got a lecture on how this story and my reaction to it proves that reality-based thinking is so last year, or something.

While we're telling stories, let me tell you about when I was an area supervisor for a chain of restaurants. One of my managers was into CW reenacting. One Saturday he had scheduled a store meeting, and decided that it would be appropriate to show up (since he was going to a reenactment that afternoon) in his Confederate major's uniform. He was too fucking clueless to anticipate that some of his employees would be offended.

Kinda like how I feel about this dude. As the son of a WW2 vet, and nephew of 3 WW2 vets who were actually SHOT AT by the heroes and idealists in the Nazi army, I kinda like my history to reflect, you know, what really happened in WW2. And what really happened is that anybody from Occupied Europe who joined the SS was a traitor, not a hero.

And I'm just spitballin' here, but are there WW2 reenactments in Ohio in which lots of guys dress up as SS, and lots of other guys dress up as Soviet soldiers? Because that's what Iott's reenactor website seems to be so proud of these heroes about - that they killed a lot of conscript Red Army soldiers. Or do Iott and his friends just dress up as Nazis and prance around in their authentic uniforms without DOING any actual, you know, reenacting?

Hey Bruce I live in Ohio an... (Below threshold)

Hey Bruce I live in Ohio and don't really appreciate the slap in the face insult much. So why don't you crawl back into what ever inner city shit hole you live in and leave the grown ups alone.

Hey, no offense, John. Ever... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Hey, no offense, John. Everybody's from somewhere. And, no, Raleigh, NC isn't exactly an "inner-city shithole."

But if all you got from my comment was insulted by a reference to an imaginary Armpit, Ohio, spare me the "leave the grown ups alone" bit. Are you drunk?

no actually Bruce I got tha... (Below threshold)

no actually Bruce I got that you're a condsending ass, but I guess grown ups can be that way too. And Yes I read all the blather you spouted and most of it was just you trying to manage the worst possible spin. But you know if this is a really big deal to you great have a party tell your friends, be outraged and accuse everyone you can find of being a nazi or a sympathizer. It's a nice vocation for you.

Hey, none taken, Bruce. I'... (Below threshold)

Hey, none taken, Bruce. I'm sure YOUR background is certainly sterile enough to run for office, isn't it?

Point I'm trying to make, and that you seem to have missed, is that if you dig hard enough into everyone's life you're going to find something that'll be useful to smear them with. You can spin it, you can deliberately misinterpret it, (OMG! She's a witch! Burn her! He's a Nazi! Don't vote for him!) you can do what you please. So go ahead, shout "Hey, this person's vile and evil and nasty! Don't vote for them!"

Forgive us if we don't agree - if you can. And if you can't, well... that's too damn bad, and totally typical of the 'forgiving, tolerant' left as we've come to know them all too well.

You've got your opinion, and you seem to be in the minority on it. In fact, overall the left seems to be much more in the minority now than it used to be. I think that's because a lot of people who were Democrats or independents who voted for Democrats have looked at what's gone on, and what's been promised, and what the folks on the left have said and been saying - and have had enough.

Enough of the lies, enough of the spin, enough of the smearing, enough of the attempts to persuade people that after 4 years of control of the House and Senate and two years after electing a Democratic President that somehow, some way, even when you've got CONTROL of the legislative process SOMEHOW it's STILL all Bush's fault when something goes awry! Every fucking misstep, every idiotic program, every massive expansion of debt for the last 4 years - it's ALL the fault of the Republicans!

And it might even have worked this election cycle, if it hadn't been for those damned idiots last year who kept ignoring their own constituents at the town hall meetings on Obamacare. That woke people up - they started looking and didn't care for what they saw.

All they saw coming from the left was a whole lot of money going out to the well-connected, 'stimulus' programs that didn't create jobs, miserably high gas prices while the folks in Washington piously proclaimed it was their DUTY to suffer to keep carbon emissions down to keep the world from boiling - they saw lies and self-serving blame and spin month after month after month...

And they're saying... "Enough." Soon (barring any catastrophe that delays the vote) they're going to vote.

A message will be sent to Washington with that vote - and I don't think Obama's going to appreciate the content at all.

James H - LOL!... (Below threshold)

James H -


Bruce,When reading... (Below threshold)


When reading your post, and if one was inclined, they could infer, from your statements, that you were pre-disposed to dismiss those in "flyover" country. Perhaps you hold a condescending view of those that don't live in hip urban areas or share a certain political viewpoint?

I really don't think you feel that, and the reference to "armpit" and "Athelets Foot" were attempts to illustrate your disregard for happenings outside your own immediate district/interests, yet I hope you see how easy it is to take any point of conversation, and if someone disagrees with you, to run with it in a different direction than was intended.

This is why the leftists are losing so much ground, they refuse to run on their records knowing the American people have rejected it and are motivated to remove them from office, their only recourse is personal attacks, most of them fabricated.

You should really focus on this example the next time you come on, grab a statement and "run" with it to try and make a political point.

What I find interesting is ... (Below threshold)

What I find interesting is that the liberals here seem to be saying that this association of Lott's is a disqualifier makes him unfit for office or something, but associations don't have the same effect on their chosen candidates/elected officials. All on has to do is look at the lack of concern over Obama's associations.

And it's not the Armpit or Altetes foot references it's the asumption on Bruce's part that these places are "hell holes" Please Jay Tea or someone start a post on all the associations of liberals so the rest of us can join in the outrage.

I find it disgusting that B... (Below threshold)

I find it disgusting that Bruce trades on the military service of his father and uncles to promote his own chickenshit brand of "patriotism". If you didn't walk the walk Bruce, STFU.

So, now politics dictate we must go thru each and every candidates past to find out what they participated in? Going to be interesting to find out what each did in kindergarten thru adulthood. School plays, what songs did they sing, who was their favorite folk singer. Wow! What if you were one of the "bad witches" in the Wizard of Oz? Sure would cancel my vote. I don't know tho, killing someone by throwing water on them would make one guilty of manslaughter at least wouldn't it?
I cast the Polar Kraken on Dane, and a fireball at magic-loogie!! Oh well, didn't want to run for public office anyway.

Let me be clear, point-miss... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Let me be clear, point-missers and willful point-ignorers: I don't give a shit if the guy wants to dress up as a Nazi to participate in a reenactment because, well, SOMEBODY'S gotta play the Nazis. I wouldn't vote for the guy, but I don't think dressing up disqualifies him for office.

No, it's the blurb on the website claiming that traitors from occupied countries who served in the Waffen-SS were "idealists" fighting to "protect their way of life" that makes me puke. And he's not running away from that blurb, either; Anderson Cooper grilled him about it and he dug in, proving, in my mind, he's a sick fuck with no more understanding of history than, say, you geniuses.

So, no, playing a bad witch in "Wizard of Oz" is not comparable to belonging for years to an organization thar celebrates the "heroism and idealism" of Nazi traitors from occupied Europe.

Oh, and Olsoljer? Kiss my ass. I'll express opinions about patriotism if I wish, whether I have "walked the walk" to your satisfaction or not. Kinda what makes America great, ain't it? Or do only veterans, such as you anonymously claim to be, get to express an opinion on anything national-security-related?

Gee Brucie, I might be offe... (Below threshold)

Gee Brucie, I might be offended by your comment if I thought you had any basis for your opinions. While you certainly have the right to say what you want, your credibility certainly leaves a lot to be desired.
You might want to lock your doors and turn off your lights on Oct 31 (Halloween) I would hate to hear you shot a 6 year old for dressing like an arab.

Here' let me fix that for y... (Below threshold)

Here' let me fix that for you, Lawson:

James H -


What makes you think we mis... (Below threshold)

What makes you think we missed your point Bruce, the fact it doesn't move our opinions? I know you think we're all rubes and dopes but you've spelled out your point a number of times clearly enough, it's not that we miss the point it's that we don't care about.

"What makes you think we mi... (Below threshold)

"What makes you think we missed your point Bruce, the fact it doesn't move our opinions? "

I think it's because you've repeatedly avoided addressing his point.

But that's just my "opinion."

Why would I bother to addre... (Below threshold)

Why would I bother to address his point when his outrage seems so selective. But OK here goes I understand the point you think this organization and therefore by association this candidate is a nazi (by the way that has been addressed here a few times by me and other's but since you seemed to miss the point I'll repeat it here) The simple fact is I think differently.

Ah, but WHY do you think di... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Ah, but WHY do you think differently, John?

Can you explain why a guy who thinks traitors from occupied countries who joined the armed forces of their occupiers should be "saluted" as "heroes" and "idealists" deserves to be a member of the US Congress? Why a guy who likes to dress up and pretend to BE one of these traitors deserves that honor?

Because I can't.

Let me ask you a horrifying hypothetical, John. Suppose the Chinese army invaded America to "save us from Islamic terrorism." Far-fetched, I know, but stick with me. Now, suppose your next-door neighbor, scared to death of Muslims, joined an elite unit of the Chinese army.

Would your next-door neighbor be a "hero and an idealist?" Or would he be a "traitor?" And in 60 years, would you like to see grown men dressed up in his uniform celebrating his deeds? Would you like to see one of them in Congress?

And suppose monkees fly out... (Below threshold)

And suppose monkees fly out of my ass, what the hell are you talking about Bruce? Like I said your outrage is too selective, if you look at Lotts opponent you'll find a liberal that thinks Iraq terrorist are freedom fighters, just like the american founding fathers. I don't see you jumping up and down about that.

Perhaps if that was the sub... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Perhaps if that was the subject of the post, Genius.

Still avoiding the issue, I see. Monkeys flying out of your ass, indeed.

I'll ask one more time, then I'm done with you, John: Is a man who joins the armed forces of the nation that invades and occupies his own a traitor or an idealist? And is an idiot who "salutes" that man 65 years later (by dressing up in his snazzy uniform) a dumbass or not? And would he get your vote?

No Bruce I did not avoid th... (Below threshold)

No Bruce I did not avoid the subject I disagreed with you get over it, I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I would never persume that someone as stupid as me could ever change your views. I bring up Lott's opponent only to demonstrate your selective outrage. So for the last time I don't think this has any effect on Lott's fitness for office OK? You think it does, great good for you I'm happy for you. In MY OPINION you only care about this because it gives you something to beat up a republican about.

And so I won't get accused ... (Below threshold)

And so I won't get accused of not addressing your point, given the choice between a terriorist loving democrat and rebulican that likes to participate in war games I'll take the republican. See how easy it is to paint the ugliest picture imaginable?

You're not that good at thi... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

You're not that good at this, are you, John?

That's OK. Arguing on the internet's not for everyone. But here's a hint: sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to address an opponent's point, simply saying, "I disagree," but not saying why, isn't how it's done.

But don't give up hope. Continue reading Wizbang, and pay special attention when Jay Tea joins a comment thread. He's typically just as wrong as you are here, but his comments are usually, at least, clever and amusing. Not like yours, which just sound angry and willfully ignorant.

That's right Bruce like I s... (Below threshold)

That's right Bruce like I said I'm just dumb hick from some hell hole in Ohio. But you on the other hand are so smart and so well informed you can't even convince a hick like me to accept your assine position. Thanks ever so for sharing you superior intellect with me and giving me advice on how to conduct myself. Could you be any more condesending?

OK Bruce I give up, you are... (Below threshold)

OK Bruce I give up, you are much better at insulting people than I am so I won't try any more. Instead I will try to explain why I don't think this particular thing is a disqualifier.
I understand completely what you're saying I know what the web site says. I read the story. My first problem with this line of attack is that it assumes guilt by association, there is nothing that I've seen that indicated Lott is anything but a loyal american that wants to run for public office, he's not said or done anything to indicate otherwise. There is something you find objectionable on a 3rd party web sight, not Lott's web sight, not the Ohio Rupublican party web sight. The people that run the war reenactment group have decided they understand the motives of occupied territory ss voluteers, they may have it completely wrong. They may have a former memeber who has told them his motivations. They may have read some history somewhere that indicates this, I have no idea. Second I find there is much more evidence to suggest that Lott is a geek that likes war games, he's done a lot of them with I assume lots of other groups. My problem with the attacks is that it's a low form of politics. Lott's opponent said something that was at best inartful, cvomparing Iraq insugents with the founding fathers, as a political opponent it would be great fun to jump all over her and make her explain it 10 different ways until she said something else equally as stupid that we could hang around her neck. The truth is I don't think she's a terrorist supporter any more than I think Lott loves nazis. And finally this level of politics leaves our courntry run by the likes of Reid, Pelosi, and you're faviorite republicans (take your pick most of them are just as bad as liberal politicans). If we ever want real leadership we have to stop attacking good people in this fashion. So I know you'll disagree and that's fine I'm not attempting to convince you, honestly.

Last, I think we got off on the wrong foot because I took offense at your hell hole comment. Like our friends the politicians it's easy to read motivations for the oppostition.

Thank you, John. Thanks for... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Thank you, John. Thanks for finally addressing my objection. Your reply, when I finally got it, was pretty well thought-out and makes sense. Not that hard, really, huh?

But where you and I are still gonna disagree is that Iott (not Lott, Iott) is, in interviews, DEFENDING the remarks on the website in question. In other words, this candidate for Congress knows so little about history and patriotism that he believes that sick racist traitors were "idealists" and "heroes," not the traitors they were.

Think about it, John. What do you suppose the opinion of the Dutch, Norwegian, Danish, etc. governments were about these idealists after the war? You think they recognized them for their idealism and heroism in fighting for the other side?

And here, 65 years later, is an organization that not only excuses but exalts these scumbags. And a candidate for Congress is a leading member of that organization, and just loves dressing up and playing games in their shameful uniforms.

But hey, if you live in his district, knock yourself out, vote for him.

By the way, I AM curious to know if there WERE any reenactments, or if these douchebags just took photos in their authentic snazzy Nazi uniforms. Because I can see how "somebody had to play the Nazis." But what patriotic Ohioans dressed up in SOVIET FUCKING UNIFORMS?

Bruce, I have a question fo... (Below threshold)

Bruce, I have a question for you. Which do you find worse: dressing up and taking on the role of a Nazi, or associating with, working with, and socializing with a real-life terrorist who attempted to overthrow the US government?


Well, you know, Mr Tea, if ... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Well, you know, Mr Tea, if Iott was friends with an elderly veteran of the Waffen-SS who had gone through the legal system of the country he betrayed, (perhaps getting off on a technicality) I wouldn't be particularly outraged.

But that's not the case here. Here we have Iott's organization claiming traitors were idealists and play-acting their "heroic" roles in one of the darkest chapters in Western history. And we have Iott defending that organization's claim.

Now, when you show me pictures of Obama dressing up in tie-dyes and bell bottoms and reenacting a pipe-bombing, claiming Ayers was an "idealist" fighting to "defend his way of life" I'll agree that the situations are equivalent.

Until then, you're apparently just as blind to the obvious truth of the matter as John here.

I will say that, if you want to ask which group was closer to being "idealists" - the Weather Underground or the Waffen-SS - I'll vote for Ayers and friends.

Bruce I tried I won't try a... (Below threshold)

Bruce I tried I won't try again. You just simply can not keep from talking down to me can you?

John, I expressed impatienc... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

John, I expressed impatience that it took so long for you to address my point. I don't know why you insist on being offended. Sarcasm is a standard weapon when arguing on political blogs. I don't "look down" on you as a personal matter. Who the hell am I to look down on anybody?

Man up, get over your inferiority complex, and argue with some conviction. Don't pussy out with your "Waah, that mean elitist liberal is picking on me" bullshit.

You don't understand why I'... (Below threshold)

You don't understand why I'm offened, are you kidding. You've done nothing but talk down to me, you intend it as personal insult but think I shouldn't take it as such. You're insulting and condescending and you don't understand why someone would be offened. You just called me a pussy, was that intended to offened or should I not take it personally? You're just a smug prick with an opinion and a computer. Do you feel like a tough guy calling someone a pussy on a internet blog?

OK, John, I'll try to take ... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

OK, John, I'll try to take it easy on you next time you address me.

Because remember who insulted whom first on this thread. I believe your words had something to do with "letting the grown ups talk," am I right?

You knew you were speaking to a sarcastic prick when you chose to address me in this thread. Then you get offended when I remain the same sarcastic prick I was when you made your pathetic "let the grown ups talk" attempt at snark. Don't get pissed off when you find yourself outmatched, dude.

This internet arguing stuff is only a game, not meant (at least by me) to be taken all that seriously. Those who are prone to hurt widdle feewings probably should go fishing, or flying remote control planes, or playing Scrabble or something.

In other words, yeah, you're a pussy, apparently. Be offended now.

Ok Brucie go tell your boy ... (Below threshold)

Ok Brucie go tell your boy friend how tough you are that you called someone a pussy on the internet. Yes you've out matched me because you're a much bigger prick than I am, it must make you proud. You must have a happy life, couldn't happen to a nicer guy.






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