Islam is not compatible with western law. To the wise that should be sufficient grounds for stopping all immigration of Muslims into western countries. It's not a freedom of religion issue. It's a law abiding society issue. How do you get people who demand others submit to their religion to submit to the law of the land they immigrated into? Liberals think all this is non-sense and that once people are exposed to the enlightenment of their company and ideas they will become liberal themselves. Obviously, that's proven wrong by the existence of conservatives.

Muslims are allowed by their religion to submit to the law of the land while they are in the minority. That option doesn't exist, however, once they become the majority in any given region. Allowing Muslims to immigrate in large numbers ensures domestic strive and maybe war for generations to come. Lets not make that mistake.

This is an example of why there must ONLY be one law for all.

Also, is it not true that Muslims are "allowed" to lie to non-Muslims? What good is their oath in a Sharia court?

While I have been a Wizbang reader for awhile, I somehow missed your earlier post(s) on the subject you mention here.

So, I went back and read your original post on the sujbect. Then I read your other two postings on the subject.

Jay, I have to say that I am surprised to see you post something so full of stereotypical bigotry about another group. Given the amount of pure misinformation contained in the other postings that you linked to (and your apparent unwillingness to correct some of the incorrect infomation when pointed out by your posters) and your attempt here to link a non-violent practice with another practice where violence is a very real possibility, I will have to assume that your bias in this instance is very real and very ingrained in you.

How sad .....

First, to what you claim is your point. Yes, the Mormon Church has been taken to task for baptizing Jewish Holocaust victims and, yes, the church has agreed to stop the practice. Your snide references to "at least publicly" are ridiculous.

The data base is open to every member to submit information. The church can remove references after they are submitted but, given there are millions of references, it's hard to randomly scan and get them all. In order to ALWAYS get the references to a Holocaust victim, the church would be required to have a list of them and check back continually.

Isn't part of the complaint that the Mormon church shouldn't be making a list of Jewish people?

Should we demand that you take responsibility making sure that no one ever posts a derogatory post BEFORE the comment is posted? If I remember correctly, Wizbang doesn't even take responsibility for such comments AFTER the fact. Why are you critizing others for the very thing you find impossible to do?

Should the Mormon Church do a better job of telling members not to post them in the first place? Always - but the church currently has 13 million members worldwide from dozens of different nations, cultures and languages.

So what was your point in THIS posting?

Truthfully, I don't know what to make of it. Is the information contained in it even true? Because of your links, I am not sure that I should believe the "facts" of this case as you have laid them out.

I have no problem with disagreement, but let's not pretend that all disagreement is equal.

Earlier this year, your collegue, Jim Addison, clearly and concisely laid out where he differs with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in his beliefs. He was factual and very definitely not "snide" in his comments.

He still has my respect.

JT, excellent post regardless of what Ohio says. Ohio, you have been a reader for a while and commenter, why are you not getting JT's literary style? I get it. ww

Thanks for the link, JT!

This practice may be more widespread than you think. I have a degree in laboratory medicine, and worked in the Pathology department at a hospital. One of my employees had the habit of baptizing still born infants into the Catholic faith when they arrived in our morgue. I often wondered if the parents knew this was being done.

JT, excellent post regardless of what Ohio says. Ohio, you have been a reader for a while and commenter, why are you not getting JT's literary style? I get it. ww

Interesting posts, WildWillie and JPM100.

So, in your opinion, JT's literary style is to misrepresent the facts of a situation and then draw conclusions based on that misinformation?

Have you always had such a low opinion of him or is this something new?

Ohio, when I first heard about the Mormon baptizing story, I read that the practice had first been publicized in the 90's, and the Church had promised to stop it. Then, about a decade later, it was discovered that they had not stopped it, just kept it quiet. That struck me as worthy of condemnation.

But the whole point of my bringing it up was to point out how some Muslims are doing a similar thing, but far more heinously -- a recurring theme, it seems. (Sneak preview: I'm kicking around an "Islam: The Religion Of Plagiarism" piece.)

Overall, Ohio, I have more respect for Mormons than most any other faith. That might be a part of why I singled them out -- I was especially disappointed in them for this act of rudeness.

And Ohio, I'm a smidgen disappointed that you have nothing to say about the real "meat" of this piece -- the dangers of encroaching Islamic law. It seems you'd rather talk all about this perceived slight against Mormons than this threat to all kinds of non-Islamic faiths.

You might want to reconsider your priorities.

J.

If we are all descendents of Adam and Eve, and therefore, not only spirit children from the same God but literally blood relatives as well, then why is your claim to dead ancestors any greater than anyone else's?

First, Mormons are charged with doing saving ordinances for all who have lived before. 1 Cor.15:29 John 3:5. That is their faith, and they are free to practice it.

This does not put Jews on to the Mormon rolls with membership. Nor does it bind anyone in the hereafter. It is their own choice and their's alone.

Quesiton: Who are you to tell them they can't listen to ideas in the spirit world?

Between the crucifiction and the resurrection, Christ went and preached to the spirits in the spirit world.

As a Jew this is all nonsense to you anyway. So where's the beef?

You can't tell someone they cannot practice their religion!

If you want to have a ceremony for my soul, by whatever means, spinning three times, bouncing a ball off your head and eating rice cakes, on and off for three days or whatever, and you feel by doing so you are helping my eternal soul, well, then, knock yourself out.

To me, I may feel you're wasting your time, but I am certainly not going to be offended. Rather, I would be flattered that you cared enough about me to care, misguided as I may feel you to be.

Names are submitted for temple work as genenalogy is gathered. You're handed a name and then ordinances are done for that name. Sometimes names of unworthy people will slip through.

The LDS church is mindful of this sensitive issue with the Jewish community and therefore has not only removed some peoples names as they are brought to their attention, but they have agreed to do no temple work for jews at all, unless a Mormon can show direct ancestral ties to that person. If a Mormon can show a link to a Jewish family member then why is your claim any greater than their's?

Who set you up or anyone else for that matter to speak for every jew who has ever lived? Very presumptuous on your part, is it not?

A few years ago the National Jewish Genealogical Society held their convention in SLC to take advatage of the great data base the Mormons have accumulated. How do you think this library was established? By Mormons that's how!
Obviously this group of Jews had no problem with Mormons gathering names, as they were quite willing to use the library for their benfit.

The Jewish faith has no greater friends on this earth than the Mormons, I would think some of you would have bigger fish to fry.

Mormons see all of the earths inhabitants as literal children form the same God. Let's not be quick to stir up contention where none exists.

aj arizona

Jay,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply to what I actually said.

I don't agree with you on something things but you did address the issue.

Ohio, when I first heard about the Mormon baptizing story, I read that the practice had first been publicized in the 90's, and the Church had promised to stop it.

Absolutely true and we are in total agreement.

Then, about a decade later, it was discovered that they had not stopped it, just kept it quiet. That struck me as worthy of condemnation.

Unless you saw an article radically different than what was publicized a few years ago, this isn't exactly true. The Church agreed to stop inputing data on Holocaust survivors into its data base and to remove it when it if discovered. The most recent uproar that I saw had to do with finding references in the data base despite the promise. I've already explained why it is difficult to NEVER find a reference in the database - and why the church included a promise to remove them. They knew it was virtually impossible to prevent it from ever happening.

Your comment, however, equates that with the church not only knowing about it, but going ahead with baptisms and deliberately keeping quiet about it. Tha't called an "assumption".

But the whole point of my bringing it up was to point out how some Muslims are doing a similar thing ....

If you find it "similiar", then you don't understand the Mormon practice.

Nothing requires you to condone, agree with, or even understand the Mormon practice, but I also have the right to point out your are incorrect in assuming it is "similiar".

Overall, Ohio, I have more respect for Mormons than most any other faith. That might be a part of why I singled them out -- I was especially disappointed in them for this act of rudeness.

And I appreciate that you generally have a high regard for Mormons. Again, I think your finding the practice to be "rude" indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the practice, but that's my opinion.

And Ohio, I'm a smidgen disappointed that you have nothing to say about the real "meat" of this piece -- the dangers of encroaching Islamic law. It seems you'd rather talk all about this perceived slight against Mormons than this threat to all kinds of non-Islamic faiths.

You might want to reconsider your priorities.

I'm sorry ... were YOU saying that that you were concerned about the dangers of encroaching Islamic law? I didn't get that from your piece.

I AM concerned about that very issue in fact. (Personally just looking at burquas make me claustrophobic - I can't imagine being forced to wear one.)

I am so concerned about the issue, in fact, that I would not lead an article I was writing on the subject with one, let alone FOUR, paragraphs on a different topic that I not only KNEW from past experience was divisive but that - let's face it - was really non-essential to discussing what I really wanted to convey.

Mormons have a thing for seagulls after the birds stopped a infestation of crickets back in 1848 they even built a monument to the birds in SALT LAKE CITY

Jay,

You should have just made your post about creeping Islamic law without reference to your earlier Mormon baptizing post, it would have been just as effective and your commenters wouldn't have been distracted from the point you were making.

Focus, people, focus......

"As Wretchard points out, this is the face of Shariah law, which some are trying to give legitimacy in the West." Really? Who?

"This is the logical conclusion of saying "their laws and their ways and their beliefs are just as valid and as good as ours, and we should respect them as we do our own, even in our own land." Who said that?

More of JT's selective stereotyping and bigotry.

You are very ignorant about facts in the Islamic Law. I suggest that you do a deep research and educate your self in the matter. Women are equally treated in Islam. There are however biological and emotional differences between the sexes and that is why there are different laws for both. And concerning your "western law" well history proves how humans are actually very ignorant as far as justice is concerned, believe me, I was born in a western city and came from a western family. What is surprising though is that you didn't mention how people were burring women alive before Islam and when Islam came it strictly prohibited that women get an unequal status in society, this of course came 1420 years before your so beloved "western Law". This article and the one about Mormon are a poor example of what is journalism. Please respect this job; stop giving it a bad name.

Thank you.

"What is surprising though is that you didn't mention how people were burring women alive before Islam and when Islam came it strictly prohibited that women get an unequal status in society, this of course came 1420 years before your so beloved "western Law"."

What has Islam done for me lately, Larry? Oh, never mind, I already know. If I lived under Islam I'd be subject to:
*female genital mutilation
*honor killings
*forced marriage
*a burkha, lest some man couldn't control himself from partaking of the "uncovered meat" (and I'd better have two Male, Islamic witnesses to the rape too, or my rapist would go free)

I could go on, and I will just as soon as you show me how those things aren't happening TODAY in places that Islam rules.

Oh, oh, a Muslim trying to tell a free American woman how women should be treated!

How fun. Let's pile on, Laura. First, we'll put on fabulous bikinis because we can, and because we're God's beautiful creatures, and then we'll sashay alone and uncovered at the beach to get some ice cream. Then we'll decide where we want to live, when we want to get married, and how we want to have children and how we want to raise them.

Oh, and don't forget orgasms. We got 'em, we have 'em, American men created Viagra just to keep up with American women and their demands for delightful orgasms from their husbands.

Yes, and dancing, too. We American women get to dance when we please, in public. This summer my husband and I danced in the park to a very funny Neil Diamond impersonator. The whole neighborhood danced and drank beer and the kids played, and then there were fireworks.

Oh, I forgot -- no drinking in Islam, either. Ah, the pitiful creatures, staring at all of this luscious America through the bars of their women-hating religion. I'd say more, but Laura and I need to go get pedicures and discuss Angelina Jolie's latest tattoo. (If that's okay with you, Laura!) :-)

"If you find it "similiar", then you don't understand the Mormon practice."

These situations are similar in that they both assumed a conversion of the subject; one being the dead and the other being the incapacitated. Both being in a state in which the very idea of conversion is the wish of everyone BUT the subject.

If you can't see the simplicity in that, well ....

Lamy, if you want to willfully ignore punishments meted out to men and women in Islam and the lopsided severity of those punishments then fine. But don't expect the rest of us to pretend it doesn't exist in more cases than we can count.

If you seem to think that a woman's "biological and emotional" makeup determines that she is unfit to drive a car, hold a job or even be seen in public without a male family escort, please excuse me if I think that's an unreasonable display of patriarchal control and a poor example of equal treatment.

If you want to defend the specific practices that Jay enumerated above then pardon me while I laugh.

Frazetter girl, sounds like a plan! :-)

sorry... Frazetta_girl. I shouldn't type and talk at the same time.

The name "Frazetta_Girl" is giving me some pleasant mental images.

I understand your aversion to proxy baptisms, but they are not really anyone's business. It's tasteless to compare a private Mormon ceremony that in way inolves the remains of anyone with the cruel actions of an islamic theocracy.

"I could go on, and I will just as soon as you show me how those things aren't happening TODAY in places that Islam rules."

By the way my name is Lamy not larry ;)

Again you have immense racist views that were imposed on you by the media. Sadly this is our reality now; we are slaves to our own media and government. There is s striking resemblance between this and how the media in north America is controlled by the government to say what they want concerning the war crimes done by Israel to Palestinians in their own homes: American media filters all what doesn't support the Israeli army ==> here is the link, have fun:

http://goovideo.com/?2008/02/12/1052-peace-propaganda-the-promised-land

For the other points, let's see:

*female genital mutilation: Islamic law strictly prohibits these practices.

*honour killings: again huge misconception, Islam is against unjustified killing. If someone is charged of 1st degree murder or other severe crimes his killing could be justified on the hands of the law of course. This is exactly what states like California and Texas do (death penalty).

*forced marriage: this only shows furthermore your ignorance towards Islam: it is forbidden in Islam to force someone to get married. In Islam Marriage by definition is a voluntary union of two people. The prophet (saas) said "the widow and the divorced woman shall not be married until she has consented and the virgin shall not be married until her consent is obtained. The prophet did revoke the marriage of a girl who complained to him that her father had married her against her wishes.

*a burkha, lest some man couldn't control himself from partaking of the "uncovered meat" (and I'd better have two Male, Islamic witnesses to the rape too, or my rapist would go free): yes there should be two witnesses but they could be of any ethnicity and any sex. This is for the only reason to protect the innocent. And by the way the rapist in Islam gets a far harsher sentence than in western law where he can go free after 2-3 years in prison.

Please do some researches before prejudging anything you see from the media. Don't let your self enslaved buy humans who are same as you and have weaknesses like all human being. God gave us a brain and eyes not to only understand what we see but to investigate and make connections.

Thank you.

Again you have immense racist views that were imposed on you by the media.

Pretty much stopped reading there. Whenever I see someone make such a statement, it is invariably followed up by their own close-minded statements in defense of some thuggery or other injustice.

*takes a peek*

Yep, batting 1.000

Well that's your choice if you don't want to read. You couldn't even comment on the facts on Islam I wrote because you know you don't know anything on the matter. I f someone chooses to stay ignorant then nobody can do anything about it, nobody can force you nevertheless the hate is still going to be there due to misinformation and lack of knowledge.

Have a good day.

OK, Lamy, you've convinced me that there are a lot of nice words and ideas in the Koran.

But deeds count far more than words. Show me examples of them being put into practice. If you can find one good example for every five bad ones I can find of Muslims committing atrocities in the name of Islam, I'll apologize.

Islam is starting to remind me of Communism. On paper, both sound just wonderful. In practice, they amass a body count that runs well into the millions.

J.

An explanation from this poster explaining
who it is, that keeps getting reported,
doing all or most of the killing, mutilation,
and blowing up globally. It sure isn't the
Jews.
I think said poster is playing a little
game of kitman.

Jay

Don't you know the proverb is Arabic that says: "Thank God, that he showed me Islam before Muslims"? If you judge anything based on the minority we see on our media then we sure are going to get bad examples. For example: during the years I grew up in London Ontario and heard Africa I only think of poor black savage people. This of course is a widely belief that many people though and still think. While when I went to Morocco, South Africa and other countries alike I realized the huge mistake I had about the image of Africa. Morocco that here the media subjects as poor and where people are hungry, i did a field research a found that the majority eat cheaper, richer and natural food compared to the U.S. The average person in Morocco eats healthier and without OGM's in their food. Now compare this with the movie: super size me or the book Fast food nation. See how Lamy actually trying to say.

This prejudgment of Muslims and Arabs is the result of what the mass media is feeding us. If you were to go to a Muslim country and stay with a Muslim family and eat with them you will understand that they are actually peaceful people trying to live their lives like us.

Yes there are many things done on the name of Islam that are disgraceful but that shouldn't make us blinded about this beautiful religion, as beautiful as all the other religions. As far as I seen, I saw more good done in the name of Islam than bad, our people and media simply chooses to see the injustice. Why don't they show the injustice they do in Iraq? Our job as journalists should stay unbiased. The sole reason of the existence to journalism is to provide the true story. What they do here is that they provide their own story and don't show how innocent lives are taken in the name of Freedom, USA and democracy.

I am disappointed to see so much hate & anger being targeted at Muslims.. Why is it that every non-muslim feels they are qualified to (so harshly) criticise a religion they know very little about?

Islam has existed since long before we were all created.. Yet, it is only in recent times it has been attacked so viciously & labelled as a 'terrorist' religion. Ask yourself: why is it that 'islamic terrorism' did not exist 100 years ago? Could it be, perhaps, MODERN events have distorted your view? Hitler followed Christianity. Does this mean Christianity preaches mass murder? Would you believe it if your TV told you so?

Islam is the true victim of terrorism. Everyday Muslims overlook ignorant predujices & attacks. I sit here & I read comments of bitter hatred & anger & it breaks my heart but I forgive you. Islam has over a billion followers, not bad for a 'sect', huh? If it really was as hostile as you are led to believe, 1 in 5 people wouldve let you know by now.. I thank you for your time & I hope you research into all avenues in your personal quest for knowledge, for there is more to learn about Islam than can be covered through this forum.

Wizbang has been infested with
kitman.
Islam has been around forever, probably
even before the arrival of the moon god,
alla (peanut butter in his beard).
/sarcasm