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Islam: The Religion Of Grave-Robbing

A couple of years ago, I wrote a piece that turned out to be one of the most controversial pieces I've ever written -- and it caught me completely off-guard. I denounced a practice by some Mormons of holding baptismal ceremonies for the deceased -- who had not died as Mormons. When that extended to Holocaust victims and other Jews, their families protested, and the Mormons stopped -- at least publicly. I said it was tacky, and they should stop. I couldn't believe the heat that generated -- it extended over three postings (and an afterword by Kevin, the guy what runs the place), and I eventually had to shut down the comments on all of 'em.

In the end, I simply reiterated what I saw as the two arguments:

The Mormon Position: "We're only doing this because we care about you. If we're right, you'll thank us. If we're wrong, there's no real harm. So, what's the problem?"

The Jewish Position: "Regardless of your motives, we find it distasteful and offensive. Besides, whenever in our history people do things to us 'for our own good,' it almost inevitably turns out bad for us. Especially when it involves making lists of us. So please stop."

I bring this up because I was reminded of that fuss when I read this article by Wretchard of the Belmont Club (and Pajamas Media). In Malaysia, an ethnic Chinese man is attempting to recover the body of his late father. Government officials say that before the man expired, he converted to Islam and gave him a Muslim funeral. The man is incensed, because he and his whole family are Buddhists, and apparently this has caused great spiritual harm to the departed.

The goverment's case is simple: they say that the man verbally assented to conversion on his deathbed, in front of witnesses, and that is that under Malaysian (that is to say, Islamic) law. Case closed.

The family, though, brings up some inconvenient facts: the man in question had been senile for years, and left speechless after a 2006 stroke. Therefore, he was both mentally and physically incapable of making such a declaration.

The Malaysian courts have ruled that they have no jurisdiction over the man's remains; since the matter involves questions of Islam, it must be settled by an Islamic court.

This leaves the family asking the Buddhist equivalent of "WTF?" They're not Muslim, they insist the patriarch did not (and, indeed, could not) have been a Muslim, but they have to seek relief from a Muslim court -- where, by rule, their word is worth half that of a Muslim's. And with several Muslim witnesses ready to swear that the old, senile, utterly incapacitated regained both lucidity and the power of speech just long enough to make the Declaration of Faith in Arabic (Allah, after all, can work miracles!), it's pretty much an open-and-shut case that they will lose.

And then, quite possibly, be persecuted for attacking or defaming Islam. After all, they're calling Muslims liars, in an official proceeding. That kind of affront is quite possibly more offensive than drawing a cartoon of Mohammed.

As Wretchard points out, this is the face of Shariah law, which some are trying to give legitimacy in the West. All it takes is a few people willing to say or do whatever it takes to give a matter a veneer of Islam, and they can argue that it must be settled according to Islamic law. A law that has such wonderful tenets as a rape can only be prosecuted if there are two Muslim male witnesses. That women are essentially property of their families, until they are sold married off to their husbands, who then gain title. That gives preference to the testimony of Muslim men over that of women and unbelievers. That says that a husband should not beat his wife with a stick any thicker than his thumb.

This is the end result of moral equivalence. This is the logical conclusion of saying "their laws and their ways and their beliefs are just as valid and as good as ours, and we should respect them as we do our own, even in our own land."

They are not. And we need to assert that by declaring that our system of laws and justice (the two are not always synonymous), for all their flaws, are legally and morally superior to Shariah law, and will remain superior in Western civilization.

I'm going to steal a line from myself here, and ask a very fundamental question:

"Do we have the right to not obey Islamic law?"

(Thanks to Laura of Pursuing Holiness for reminding me that I once said that.)

The answer, it seems, is slowly creeping towards "no."

Oh, and one final reminder, one thought that cannot be restated enough: "Islam" does not mean "peace." It means "submission."

Remember that. It will be on the final exam.


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Comments (37)

Islam is not compatible wit... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

Islam is not compatible with western law. To the wise that should be sufficient grounds for stopping all immigration of Muslims into western countries. It's not a freedom of religion issue. It's a law abiding society issue. How do you get people who demand others submit to their religion to submit to the law of the land they immigrated into? Liberals think all this is non-sense and that once people are exposed to the enlightenment of their company and ideas they will become liberal themselves. Obviously, that's proven wrong by the existence of conservatives.

Muslims are allowed by their religion to submit to the law of the land while they are in the minority. That option doesn't exist, however, once they become the majority in any given region. Allowing Muslims to immigrate in large numbers ensures domestic strive and maybe war for generations to come. Lets not make that mistake.

This is an example of why t... (Below threshold)
goddessoftheclassroom:

This is an example of why there must ONLY be one law for all.

Also, is it not true that Muslims are "allowed" to lie to non-Muslims? What good is their oath in a Sharia court?

While I have been a Wizbang... (Below threshold)
OhioVoter:

While I have been a Wizbang reader for awhile, I somehow missed your earlier post(s) on the subject you mention here.

So, I went back and read your original post on the sujbect. Then I read your other two postings on the subject.

Jay, I have to say that I am surprised to see you post something so full of stereotypical bigotry about another group. Given the amount of pure misinformation contained in the other postings that you linked to (and your apparent unwillingness to correct some of the incorrect infomation when pointed out by your posters) and your attempt here to link a non-violent practice with another practice where violence is a very real possibility, I will have to assume that your bias in this instance is very real and very ingrained in you.

How sad .....

First, to what you claim is your point. Yes, the Mormon Church has been taken to task for baptizing Jewish Holocaust victims and, yes, the church has agreed to stop the practice. Your snide references to "at least publicly" are ridiculous.

The data base is open to every member to submit information. The church can remove references after they are submitted but, given there are millions of references, it's hard to randomly scan and get them all. In order to ALWAYS get the references to a Holocaust victim, the church would be required to have a list of them and check back continually.

Isn't part of the complaint that the Mormon church shouldn't be making a list of Jewish people?

Should we demand that you take responsibility making sure that no one ever posts a derogatory post BEFORE the comment is posted? If I remember correctly, Wizbang doesn't even take responsibility for such comments AFTER the fact. Why are you critizing others for the very thing you find impossible to do?

Should the Mormon Church do a better job of telling members not to post them in the first place? Always - but the church currently has 13 million members worldwide from dozens of different nations, cultures and languages.

So what was your point in THIS posting?

Truthfully, I don't know what to make of it. Is the information contained in it even true? Because of your links, I am not sure that I should believe the "facts" of this case as you have laid them out.

I have no problem with disagreement, but let's not pretend that all disagreement is equal.

Earlier this year, your collegue, Jim Addison, clearly and concisely laid out where he differs with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in his beliefs. He was factual and very definitely not "snide" in his comments.

He still has my respect.

JT, excellent post regardle... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

JT, excellent post regardless of what Ohio says. Ohio, you have been a reader for a while and commenter, why are you not getting JT's literary style? I get it. ww

Thanks for the link, JT!</p... (Below threshold)

Thanks for the link, JT!

This practice may be more w... (Below threshold)
Buckeye:

This practice may be more widespread than you think. I have a degree in laboratory medicine, and worked in the Pathology department at a hospital. One of my employees had the habit of baptizing still born infants into the Catholic faith when they arrived in our morgue. I often wondered if the parents knew this was being done.

JT, excellent post... (Below threshold)
jpm100:
JT, excellent post regardless of what Ohio says. Ohio, you have been a reader for a while and commenter, why are you not getting JT's literary style? I get it. ww
Not getting it or choosing not to get it to provide ammunition for an retort?
Interesting posts, WildWill... (Below threshold)
OhioVoter:

Interesting posts, WildWillie and JPM100.

So, in your opinion, JT's literary style is to misrepresent the facts of a situation and then draw conclusions based on that misinformation?

Have you always had such a low opinion of him or is this something new?

Ohio, when I first heard ab... (Below threshold)

Ohio, when I first heard about the Mormon baptizing story, I read that the practice had first been publicized in the 90's, and the Church had promised to stop it. Then, about a decade later, it was discovered that they had not stopped it, just kept it quiet. That struck me as worthy of condemnation.

But the whole point of my bringing it up was to point out how some Muslims are doing a similar thing, but far more heinously -- a recurring theme, it seems. (Sneak preview: I'm kicking around an "Islam: The Religion Of Plagiarism" piece.)

Overall, Ohio, I have more respect for Mormons than most any other faith. That might be a part of why I singled them out -- I was especially disappointed in them for this act of rudeness.

And Ohio, I'm a smidgen disappointed that you have nothing to say about the real "meat" of this piece -- the dangers of encroaching Islamic law. It seems you'd rather talk all about this perceived slight against Mormons than this threat to all kinds of non-Islamic faiths.

You might want to reconsider your priorities.

J.

If we are all descen... (Below threshold)
ajarizona:


If we are all descendents of Adam and Eve, and therefore, not only spirit children from the same God but literally blood relatives as well, then why is your claim to dead ancestors any greater than anyone else's?

First, Mormons are charged with doing saving ordinances for all who have lived before. 1 Cor.15:29 John 3:5. That is their faith, and they are free to practice it.

This does not put Jews on to the Mormon rolls with membership. Nor does it bind anyone in the hereafter. It is their own choice and their's alone.

Quesiton: Who are you to tell them they can't listen to ideas in the spirit world?

Between the crucifiction and the resurrection, Christ went and preached to the spirits in the spirit world.

As a Jew this is all nonsense to you anyway. So where's the beef?

You can't tell someone they cannot practice their religion!

If you want to have a ceremony for my soul, by whatever means, spinning three times, bouncing a ball off your head and eating rice cakes, on and off for three days or whatever, and you feel by doing so you are helping my eternal soul, well, then, knock yourself out.

To me, I may feel you're wasting your time, but I am certainly not going to be offended. Rather, I would be flattered that you cared enough about me to care, misguided as I may feel you to be.

Names are submitted for temple work as genenalogy is gathered. You're handed a name and then ordinances are done for that name. Sometimes names of unworthy people will slip through.

The LDS church is mindful of this sensitive issue with the Jewish community and therefore has not only removed some peoples names as they are brought to their attention, but they have agreed to do no temple work for jews at all, unless a Mormon can show direct ancestral ties to that person. If a Mormon can show a link to a Jewish family member then why is your claim any greater than their's?

Who set you up or anyone else for that matter to speak for every jew who has ever lived? Very presumptuous on your part, is it not?

A few years ago the National Jewish Genealogical Society held their convention in SLC to take advatage of the great data base the Mormons have accumulated. How do you think this library was established? By Mormons that's how!
Obviously this group of Jews had no problem with Mormons gathering names, as they were quite willing to use the library for their benfit.

The Jewish faith has no greater friends on this earth than the Mormons, I would think some of you would have bigger fish to fry.

Mormons see all of the earths inhabitants as literal children form the same God. Let's not be quick to stir up contention where none exists.

aj arizona

Jay,Thank you for ... (Below threshold)
OhioVoter:

Jay,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply to what I actually said.

I don't agree with you on something things but you did address the issue.

Ohio, when I first heard about the Mormon baptizing story, I read that the practice had first been publicized in the 90's, and the Church had promised to stop it.

Absolutely true and we are in total agreement.

Then, about a decade later, it was discovered that they had not stopped it, just kept it quiet. That struck me as worthy of condemnation.

Unless you saw an article radically different than what was publicized a few years ago, this isn't exactly true. The Church agreed to stop inputing data on Holocaust survivors into its data base and to remove it when it if discovered. The most recent uproar that I saw had to do with finding references in the data base despite the promise. I've already explained why it is difficult to NEVER find a reference in the database - and why the church included a promise to remove them. They knew it was virtually impossible to prevent it from ever happening.

Your comment, however, equates that with the church not only knowing about it, but going ahead with baptisms and deliberately keeping quiet about it. Tha't called an "assumption".

But the whole point of my bringing it up was to point out how some Muslims are doing a similar thing ....

If you find it "similiar", then you don't understand the Mormon practice.

Nothing requires you to condone, agree with, or even understand the Mormon practice, but I also have the right to point out your are incorrect in assuming it is "similiar".

Overall, Ohio, I have more respect for Mormons than most any other faith. That might be a part of why I singled them out -- I was especially disappointed in them for this act of rudeness.

And I appreciate that you generally have a high regard for Mormons. Again, I think your finding the practice to be "rude" indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the practice, but that's my opinion.

And Ohio, I'm a smidgen disappointed that you have nothing to say about the real "meat" of this piece -- the dangers of encroaching Islamic law. It seems you'd rather talk all about this perceived slight against Mormons than this threat to all kinds of non-Islamic faiths.

You might want to reconsider your priorities.

I'm sorry ... were YOU saying that that you were concerned about the dangers of encroaching Islamic law? I didn't get that from your piece.

I AM concerned about that very issue in fact. (Personally just looking at burquas make me claustrophobic - I can't imagine being forced to wear one.)

I am so concerned about the issue, in fact, that I would not lead an article I was writing on the subject with one, let alone FOUR, paragraphs on a different topic that I not only KNEW from past experience was divisive but that - let's face it - was really non-essential to discussing what I really wanted to convey.



Mormons have a thing for se... (Below threshold)
spurwing plover:

Mormons have a thing for seagulls after the birds stopped a infestation of crickets back in 1848 they even built a monument to the birds in SALT LAKE CITY

Jay,You should hav... (Below threshold)
Miss Elliott:

Jay,

You should have just made your post about creeping Islamic law without reference to your earlier Mormon baptizing post, it would have been just as effective and your commenters wouldn't have been distracted from the point you were making.

Focus, people, focus......

"As Wretchard points out, t... (Below threshold)
max:

"As Wretchard points out, this is the face of Shariah law, which some are trying to give legitimacy in the West." Really? Who?

"This is the logical conclusion of saying "their laws and their ways and their beliefs are just as valid and as good as ours, and we should respect them as we do our own, even in our own land." Who said that?

More of JT's selective ster... (Below threshold)
mikem Author Profile Page:

More of JT's selective stereotyping and bigotry.

You are very ignorant about... (Below threshold)
Lamy from Montreal:

You are very ignorant about facts in the Islamic Law. I suggest that you do a deep research and educate your self in the matter. Women are equally treated in Islam. There are however biological and emotional differences between the sexes and that is why there are different laws for both. And concerning your "western law" well history proves how humans are actually very ignorant as far as justice is concerned, believe me, I was born in a western city and came from a western family. What is surprising though is that you didn't mention how people were burring women alive before Islam and when Islam came it strictly prohibited that women get an unequal status in society, this of course came 1420 years before your so beloved "western Law". This article and the one about Mormon are a poor example of what is journalism. Please respect this job; stop giving it a bad name.

Thank you.

"What is surprising though ... (Below threshold)

"What is surprising though is that you didn't mention how people were burring women alive before Islam and when Islam came it strictly prohibited that women get an unequal status in society, this of course came 1420 years before your so beloved "western Law"."

What has Islam done for me lately, Larry? Oh, never mind, I already know. If I lived under Islam I'd be subject to:
*female genital mutilation
*honor killings
*forced marriage
*a burkha, lest some man couldn't control himself from partaking of the "uncovered meat" (and I'd better have two Male, Islamic witnesses to the rape too, or my rapist would go free)

I could go on, and I will just as soon as you show me how those things aren't happening TODAY in places that Islam rules.

Oh, oh, a Muslim trying to ... (Below threshold)

Oh, oh, a Muslim trying to tell a free American woman how women should be treated!

How fun. Let's pile on, Laura. First, we'll put on fabulous bikinis because we can, and because we're God's beautiful creatures, and then we'll sashay alone and uncovered at the beach to get some ice cream. Then we'll decide where we want to live, when we want to get married, and how we want to have children and how we want to raise them.

Oh, and don't forget orgasms. We got 'em, we have 'em, American men created Viagra just to keep up with American women and their demands for delightful orgasms from their husbands.

Yes, and dancing, too. We American women get to dance when we please, in public. This summer my husband and I danced in the park to a very funny Neil Diamond impersonator. The whole neighborhood danced and drank beer and the kids played, and then there were fireworks.

Oh, I forgot -- no drinking in Islam, either. Ah, the pitiful creatures, staring at all of this luscious America through the bars of their women-hating religion. I'd say more, but Laura and I need to go get pedicures and discuss Angelina Jolie's latest tattoo. (If that's okay with you, Laura!) :-)

"If you find it "similia... (Below threshold)

"If you find it "similiar", then you don't understand the Mormon practice."

These situations are similar in that they both assumed a conversion of the subject; one being the dead and the other being the incapacitated. Both being in a state in which the very idea of conversion is the wish of everyone BUT the subject.

If you can't see the simplicity in that, well ....

Lamy, if you want to willfully ignore punishments meted out to men and women in Islam and the lopsided severity of those punishments then fine. But don't expect the rest of us to pretend it doesn't exist in more cases than we can count.

If you seem to think that a woman's "biological and emotional" makeup determines that she is unfit to drive a car, hold a job or even be seen in public without a male family escort, please excuse me if I think that's an unreasonable display of patriarchal control and a poor example of equal treatment.

If you want to defend the specific practices that Jay enumerated above then pardon me while I laugh.

Frazetter girl, sounds like... (Below threshold)

Frazetter girl, sounds like a plan! :-)

sorry... Frazetta_girl. I ... (Below threshold)

sorry... Frazetta_girl. I shouldn't type and talk at the same time.

The name "Frazetta_Girl" is... (Below threshold)
The Listkeeper:

The name "Frazetta_Girl" is giving me some pleasant mental images.

I understand your aversion ... (Below threshold)
Deseretian:

I understand your aversion to proxy baptisms, but they are not really anyone's business. It's tasteless to compare a private Mormon ceremony that in way inolves the remains of anyone with the cruel actions of an islamic theocracy.

"I could go on, and I will ... (Below threshold)
lamy from montreal:

"I could go on, and I will just as soon as you show me how those things aren't happening TODAY in places that Islam rules."

By the way my name is Lamy not larry ;)

Again you have immense racist views that were imposed on you by the media. Sadly this is our reality now; we are slaves to our own media and government. There is s striking resemblance between this and how the media in north America is controlled by the government to say what they want concerning the war crimes done by Israel to Palestinians in their own homes: American media filters all what doesn't support the Israeli army ==> here is the link, have fun:

http://goovideo.com/?2008/02/12/1052-peace-propaganda-the-promised-land

For the other points, let's see:

*female genital mutilation: Islamic law strictly prohibits these practices.

*honour killings: again huge misconception, Islam is against unjustified killing. If someone is charged of 1st degree murder or other severe crimes his killing could be justified on the hands of the law of course. This is exactly what states like California and Texas do (death penalty).

*forced marriage: this only shows furthermore your ignorance towards Islam: it is forbidden in Islam to force someone to get married. In Islam Marriage by definition is a voluntary union of two people. The prophet (saas) said "the widow and the divorced woman shall not be married until she has consented and the virgin shall not be married until her consent is obtained. The prophet did revoke the marriage of a girl who complained to him that her father had married her against her wishes.


*a burkha, lest some man couldn't control himself from partaking of the "uncovered meat" (and I'd better have two Male, Islamic witnesses to the rape too, or my rapist would go free): yes there should be two witnesses but they could be of any ethnicity and any sex. This is for the only reason to protect the innocent. And by the way the rapist in Islam gets a far harsher sentence than in western law where he can go free after 2-3 years in prison.

Please do some researches before prejudging anything you see from the media. Don't let your self enslaved buy humans who are same as you and have weaknesses like all human being. God gave us a brain and eyes not to only understand what we see but to investigate and make connections.

Thank you.

Again you have immense r... (Below threshold)
John Irving:

Again you have immense racist views that were imposed on you by the media.

Pretty much stopped reading there. Whenever I see someone make such a statement, it is invariably followed up by their own close-minded statements in defense of some thuggery or other injustice.

*takes a peek*

Yep, batting 1.000

Well that's your choice if ... (Below threshold)
Lamy from Montreal:

Well that's your choice if you don't want to read. You couldn't even comment on the facts on Islam I wrote because you know you don't know anything on the matter. I f someone chooses to stay ignorant then nobody can do anything about it, nobody can force you nevertheless the hate is still going to be there due to misinformation and lack of knowledge.

Have a good day.

OK, Lamy, you've convinced ... (Below threshold)

OK, Lamy, you've convinced me that there are a lot of nice words and ideas in the Koran.

But deeds count far more than words. Show me examples of them being put into practice. If you can find one good example for every five bad ones I can find of Muslims committing atrocities in the name of Islam, I'll apologize.

Islam is starting to remind me of Communism. On paper, both sound just wonderful. In practice, they amass a body count that runs well into the millions.

J.

An explanation from this po... (Below threshold)
Maggie:

An explanation from this poster explaining
who it is, that keeps getting reported,
doing all or most of the killing, mutilation,
and blowing up globally. It sure isn't the
Jews.
I think said poster is playing a little
game of kitman.

JayDon't you know ... (Below threshold)
Billy:

Jay

Don't you know the proverb is Arabic that says: "Thank God, that he showed me Islam before Muslims"? If you judge anything based on the minority we see on our media then we sure are going to get bad examples. For example: during the years I grew up in London Ontario and heard Africa I only think of poor black savage people. This of course is a widely belief that many people though and still think. While when I went to Morocco, South Africa and other countries alike I realized the huge mistake I had about the image of Africa. Morocco that here the media subjects as poor and where people are hungry, i did a field research a found that the majority eat cheaper, richer and natural food compared to the U.S. The average person in Morocco eats healthier and without OGM's in their food. Now compare this with the movie: super size me or the book Fast food nation. See how Lamy actually trying to say.

This prejudgment of Muslims and Arabs is the result of what the mass media is feeding us. If you were to go to a Muslim country and stay with a Muslim family and eat with them you will understand that they are actually peaceful people trying to live their lives like us.

Yes there are many things done on the name of Islam that are disgraceful but that shouldn't make us blinded about this beautiful religion, as beautiful as all the other religions. As far as I seen, I saw more good done in the name of Islam than bad, our people and media simply chooses to see the injustice. Why don't they show the injustice they do in Iraq? Our job as journalists should stay unbiased. The sole reason of the existence to journalism is to provide the true story. What they do here is that they provide their own story and don't show how innocent lives are taken in the name of Freedom, USA and democracy.

I am disappointed to see so... (Below threshold)
A recent reverted brother:

I am disappointed to see so much hate & anger being targeted at Muslims.. Why is it that every non-muslim feels they are qualified to (so harshly) criticise a religion they know very little about?

Islam has existed since long before we were all created.. Yet, it is only in recent times it has been attacked so viciously & labelled as a 'terrorist' religion. Ask yourself: why is it that 'islamic terrorism' did not exist 100 years ago? Could it be, perhaps, MODERN events have distorted your view? Hitler followed Christianity. Does this mean Christianity preaches mass murder? Would you believe it if your TV told you so?

Islam is the true victim of terrorism. Everyday Muslims overlook ignorant predujices & attacks. I sit here & I read comments of bitter hatred & anger & it breaks my heart but I forgive you. Islam has over a billion followers, not bad for a 'sect', huh? If it really was as hostile as you are led to believe, 1 in 5 people wouldve let you know by now.. I thank you for your time & I hope you research into all avenues in your personal quest for knowledge, for there is more to learn about Islam than can be covered through this forum.

Wizbang has been infested w... (Below threshold)
maggie:

Wizbang has been infested with
kitman.
Islam has been around forever, probably
even before the arrival of the moon god,
alla (peanut butter in his beard).
/sarcasm

"yes there should be two... (Below threshold)

"yes there should be two witnesses but they could be of any ethnicity and any sex.

Oh that's comforting. Tell me, Lamy, how many rape cases are there with two witnesses? Unless of course they're participants...

"This is for the only reason to protect the innocent. And by the way the rapist in Islam gets a far harsher sentence than in western law where he can go free after 2-3 years in prison."

Sure, as long as there are two witnesses. People have indeed gone free after 2-3 years in prison, but this is not the norm and it is widely viewed by westerners to be a miscarriage of justice, so it is not fair of you to imply anything else.

*forced marriage and consent: Tell me Lamy, (and let's use kinder words here so as not to offend you) How comfortable is a woman pulled into an "arranged" marriage in a country ruled by Islamic law in contesting that marriage without drawing the wrath of male family members; particularly her father? Remember now, this is a woman who knows she needs two witnesses if she's unfortunate enough to be raped.

"*honour killings: again huge misconception, Islam is against unjustified killing."

Oddly enough you don't address the definition of unjustified. Does adultery "justify" killing her? Is sex outside marriage "justified"? How many times is she permitted to go outside "uncovered" or without a male family escort before it is ruled that she is recalcitrant enough to be killed?

Dear sir, it seems to me that as long as you live in a western country where western law supersedes certain Islamic laws and extends certain protections women do not have in Islamic countries then it's easy for you to talk nice-nice and pretend that in regions like the Middle East these things aren't a widespread practice.

Lamy, a fine example... (Below threshold)
Maggie:

Lamy, a fine example of the
oily slickness of taqquiya and kitman.
Kind of reminds one of an used car
salesman who has sold one too many
lemon car.
If these guys could beget male children
without the use of women, there'd be
none.

Oyster:Your last p... (Below threshold)
lamy:

Oyster:

Your last post just showed again how you are under the effect of American and Israeli propaganda.

Go watch this, get educated and enjoy :)

http://goovideo.com/?2008/02/12/1052-peace-propaganda-the-promised-land

How many rape cases you find that someone accused someone else who is innocent of rape just to get money or get revenge? Islam is a religion that doesn't only protect the victims of rape but also innocent people who didn't do anything and got accused. Everybody can accuse anyone of rape but don't forget that there is scientific methods and witnesses to prove it even here in the west. So actually the law of: someone is innocent till proven wrong, is the same in Islam. So don't try to get it out of context.

"People have indeed gone free after 2-3 years in prison, but this is not the norm and it is widely viewed by westerners to be a miscarriage of justice, so it is not fair of you to imply anything else."

actually what's unfair is that us woman when we get raped most of the time the guy goes off with 1 year or that he has to pay some ridiculous sum of money. You can close your eyes on this but i won't because i know it feels.

About forced marriage: you are again talking about very little minorities. Of course you talk out of ignorance and you say "oh how often...", I ask you this: how often did you go to Muslim country and did a field trip to research that? If you really feel bad for those women then do something about it! All these words of how Islam is bad and you don't do anything about it in your own country where women get played less money in Wal-Mart and other companies. Put your actions in where your mouth is, go rent the movie "The high cost of low price" about Wal-Mart and see how our democratic society treats women! It's easy to blame the other or a respectable religion like Islam but we can't criticize our own government for what it is doing to women here.

Let's talk about drunken husbands that come every night hitting their wives and insulting them under the name of freedom of speech. Let's talk about racial profiling. Let's talk about how women in Canada who got a maternal vacation get fired and have a hard time finding a job. Let's talk about women that work outside of the house and comes and has to take care of children too because her husband is gambling, drinking or out side with his friend that won't hesitate to sleep with his own wife. Look at all the cheating husbands who go with just a divorce and don't get punished. That is what freedom of speech? That's what democracy is? In a country where the divorce rate reached 58% and still growing.

Oh let's talk about "justified killing" for America. Giving billion of dollars from taxes of their own citizens to kill people in their own land in Palestine, Iraq and whoever goes against them all in the name of peace, democracy and freedom!

Wake up! It is easy to criticize something you don't know anything about except what media is feeding you, but you can't criticize the real mobs that are in our country waiting for every opportunity to get the money of the poor.

And that is why they are terrified of Islam and try to destroy its image: because it takes their power from them and makes every one equal. You can stay blind all you want but Islam is the only way to stop people from injustice and corruption in the name of dollars and "freedom".

*From the mouth of a Canadian citizen from an American family origin.

American and Israeli propag... (Below threshold)

American and Israeli propaganda. Now that's funny coming from someone speaking straight from a propaganda handbook. The difference between you and I is that while I willingly admit that western practices are not perfect, you are not willing to admit that certain aspects of Islam are unfair to women and instead criticize western practice to justify Islamic practice. You cite mistreatment of working women in, say, China as proof that Islam is superior to the west in its treatment of women. You question my opinions based on whether I've made "field trips" to the Middle East with the claim that my information was fed to me by the media.

"Everybody can accuse anyone of rape but don't forget that there is scientific methods and witnesses to prove it even here in the west. So actually the law of: someone is innocent till proven wrong, is the same in Islam. So don't try to get it out of context."

No. You're taking the context wrong. Don't confuse the concept that someone is innocent until proven guilty with the means used to prove that guilt or innocence. There are indeed scientific ways of proving rape and that science is used to do so. You are trying to justify the "two witnesses" as "the same" or at least must be in conjunction with the science. You are unclear on the latter. Let's say a woman is raped and scientific evidence shows her battered and torn and the rapist's DNA is inside her, but she doesn't have two witnesses. Hmmmm, what to do....go with western law or Islamic law? You only have one choice - because, you know, the law is the same according to you.

Sure, anyone can accuse anyone else of rape, but let's not even get into how many real rape cases go completely unreported worldwide.

"actually what's unfair is that us woman when we get raped most of the time the guy goes off with 1 year or that he has to pay some ridiculous sum of money. You can close your eyes on this but i won't because i know it feels."

Please, cite those statistics. Furthermore you're implicitly admitting, with uncited statistics, that rapists go free all the time. Imagine how many more it would be if the "two witnesses" were the only criteria that must be met.

First, in America, the average prison sentence for a convicted rapist is over 10 to 11 years depending on the study. The average actually served is over 5 years according to some studies. As far as the rapist simply paying a fine? I'm not saying such cases don't exist, but if they do, it stands to reason that it too would be a miscarriage of justice. Second, if your "I know how it feels" statement is based on personal experience you cannot use that as a measure of national statistics.

I could go point to point on this with you, but it would be a waste of time as you are running on raw emotion rather than fact. Your arguments are weak and stray from the point. A criticism of western practice is not proof that another is superior.

You just shot your self in ... (Below threshold)
Lamy:

You just shot your self in the foot.

See how ignorance could be used against you, look how:

The two witnesses is not the only way to report a rape, scientific methods do indeed work in the Islamic law. Again who is ignorant here?

I will try to explain everything about Islam because it's something you can't do in an hour or even a whole month. And this is why people are ignorant and judge it in the way you do, people like you don't want to waist their valuable time to understand the whole Islam because they are arrogant and don't want to know the other.

I confirm again, yes Islam is perfecto if you take it as a WHOLE, yes when you choose just parts of Islam and take them out of context you will get bad government, but when the Islam was united under the fatcatt and used as a whole without choosing what anyone likes there was a great society that never existed and will never exist in the west unless under Islam.

Please note that I am not against you, I just want to inform you. All respects, salami.

Lamy,I find it hard ... (Below threshold)
Mc93433:

Lamy,
I find it hard to follow your point. But I can say this...I did not make a "field trip to a Middle Eastern country", I lived in Saudi Arabia for 5 years. I taught there in a school and I came to know many different women. ( I am also a woman) Sharia Law has no respect for women..Women live in fear and their lives are only as good or bad as the men who rule them choose it to be. That is a fact. I have seen it. I have talked to these women. I have heard their stories. There are many great qualities of life in every culture, but when it comes to the rights of women, I can say first hand that SAudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran, and to a lesser extent many of the Islamic countries of Asia and Africa restrict women's roles in society in the most severe way. You cannot compare women working for minimum wage at WalMart, you cannot compare women on welfare or any of the other comparisions you made. You know why? Because those women can change their situation, those women can get a driver's license, own property, represent themselves in court, ride in a car with someone who is not their male relative, seek medical treatment without a male relative's consent, socialize with members of the opposite sex, take out a loan, have credit in their name, go to college,chose to marry outside their faith, nationality, or tribe...the list goes on...but it all boils down to choice which is not available under Sharia LAw...It is simply not there. If you have ever lived under it you would also know it to be true.




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