In the wake of the “Rove Leaked Plame” non-story many have been wondering which dictator/tyrant he will be compared to by the left. After all, many on the left already blame Rove for everything from stopped-up drains to failed marriages (some even for their early demise), its only fitting that they pick and extra-special bad guy to compare Rove to.
Will it be Hitler? Stalin? Pol Pot?
Nope, looks like they’re going with Osama bin Laden:
KARL ROVE: WORSE THAN OSAMA BIN LADEN
NEW YORK–In war collaborators are more dangerous than enemy forces, for they betray with intimate knowledge in painful detail and demoralize by their cynical example. This explains why, at the end of occupations, the newly liberated exact vengeance upon their treasonous countrymen even they allow foreign troops to conduct an orderly withdrawal.If, as state-controlled media insists, there is such a creature as a Global War on Terrorism, our enemies are underground Islamist organizations allied with or ideologically similar to those that attacked us on 9/11. But who are the collaborators?
The right points to critics like Michael Moore, yours truly, and Ward Churchill, the Colorado professor who points out the gaping chasm between America’s high-falooting rhetoric and its historical record. But these bête noires are guilty only of the all-American actions of criticism and dissent, not to mention speaking uncomfortable truths to liars and deniers. As far as we know, no one on what passes for the “left” (which would be the center-right anywhere else) has betrayed the United States in the GWOT. No anti-Bush progressive has made common cause with Al Qaeda, Hamas, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan or any other officially designated “terrorist” group. No American liberal has handed over classified information or worked to undermine the CIA.
But it now appears that Karl Rove, GOP golden boy, has done exactly that.
Amazing, isn’t it?
There is absolutely no evidence available to us now that can prove that Rove leaked Plame’s name to the press. There is evidence to suggest that he could have done it, but none proving that he did.
Of course, people like Ted Rall aren’t going to let silly little things like “facts” and “burden of proof” get in the way of a good rant.
Rob Port is the owner and operator of Say Anything.
Plame’s cover was blown and that is not in dispute.
It’s not? Funny, from what I’ve read it was common knowledge in D.C. that Ambassador Joe Wilson’s wife worked for the CIA — long before the Novak column.
The crime that was her outing is treason, also not in dispute.
It’s not? Funny that revealing the widely known fact that Mrs. Joe Wilson worked for the CIA is regarded as “treason” when Taliban John’s going to Afghanistan to fight on the side of al Qaeda wasn’t, and the Rosenberg’s passing of U.S. atomic weapons secrets to the Soviet Union also wasn’t.
Dan, I’d tell you to stop making a fool of yourself, but Darth Rove told me you making a fool of yourself is all part of his fiendish plot.
DavidB,
Your assessment has so many inaccuracies – either you are intentionally lying or your’re the typical uniformed republican – or both.
You said “Valerie Plame was not, at the time of the story, doing any undercover work for the CIA.” This is a lie, she was.
You said “Robert Novak and his superiors at the Chicago Sun Times, not being complete idiots about such matters, contacted the CIA prior to releasing the story. The CIA did not inform them of any objections to releasing Valerie Plame’s name. ” This is also a lie.
I assume due to you blind following, that you will continue close your mind to the reality that Rove, did finally admit, after the revelation would be publicized, that he indeed was the source of the Time reporter, or at least spoke to them the week of the “outing” of Plame.
Coincidence? Could be. Doesn’t this coincidence though warrant some explanation by Rove and Bush? What did he talk to them about? Why won’t he tell the American people? If he can tell us he did not “knowingly” divulge, then what did he talk about?
I will admit that I can’t stand Bush. I will offer this and my potential lack of objectivity. But it sure does seem like the heat is and should be on. The mere fact that a “senior” Bush administrator “outed” a CIA agent and commited treason to this country should be enough for you so-called moral-loving republicans to demand full disclosure. Again though I think we see how little morality this republican party truly has.
Rove may get off legally through technicalities, however, it will be interesting to see how many moral-bankrupt republicans will follow. Hopefully not many.
AnonymousDrivel ,
Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night. If calling me a ranter, or saying I am not on point makes you feel better, so be it. But the fact is evil breeds evil followers. Rove is evil, his motivations in this case were evil, his politics are evil. Bush follows his lead, so put two and two together. And if you want to follow his evil ways, you will need to answer along with them. I still never said I hate anyone. I would say pity is more the word. If someone in my party did and said the things Rove said, I would no longer support him. Just because someone calls themselves a Democrat they do not have my undying loyalty. Their actions are what I base my loyalty on. Seems a lot of people here discount ever negative story that comes out of Washington if it has to do with a Republican. Now that is narrow minded, as I have said in the past. Rove is an immoral creep. He deserves to burn, but I am not the one who will pass that judgement, that is just my opinion.
Joe Mama: So no, I do not hate Republicans, I just hate what they do to the poor, the disabled, the needy. I hate their methods.
I get it. You “hate the sin, not the sinner”.
Sorry, that’s just a cheap and cowardly way of saying you hate the sinner.
Compassion and love and helping your neighbor? That’s exactly what the DNC hasn’t been about for a long time. It’s the Moses syndrome all over, including all of its delusional aspects. This includes the delusion that you have to be a Democrat in order to compassionate, or to care for the poor, the needly or the elderly.
My advice: quit drinking the party koolaid and learn to think independently.
Krusy Krab,
Well, if that makes you feel better about yourself to say you are compassionate about the poor, needy and disabled, then so be it. But talk is cheap, where is the proof. Well I have to give you some credit, at least you didn’t tell me the bible teaches us to be selfish, greedy and materialistic. I have had some tell me I am totally wrong about what the bible teaches, mostly Republicans. I guess they figure wishful thinking will get them into heaven. I am not sure that is how it works though. But I guess this is totally off topic. As far as Rove, I just hope the truth comes out, and I am talking about the real truth, not the Bush Administration’s version of the truth. At least it seems average americans are now seeing that most of the information they are receiving from the white house is lies. I mean I know the truth can sometimes hurt, but they can’t keep feeding the public lies and half-truths and expect them to keep believing it. Don’t they understand, if you constantly have to lie about something to get support for it, there is something wrong to begin with. If what they were doing was right, the truth would work just as well. As far as Rove, saying that Plame was fair game just shows his lack of morality and just how low he is. And for you people to support him is just sad. It is sure a shame this is what our great country has come to.
DavidB
I’m afraid it’s actually you that doesn’t understand the article, or at least parts of it. The article is speculation on what has happened, not what has actually been proven to have happened. Thus the disclaimer at the end of the article saying, “The above is as accurate a guess…”
As an example of your misunderstanding, you say,
You see the part where Novak turned over his notes, and testified to the grand jury? You see that it was over a year ago, so why has there not been any indictment?
The truth of the matter of whether Novak has even testified is:
“No one really knows. Novak’s role (or non-role) in the grand jury investigation has baffled legal observers. Since he wrote the column outing Plame, he should have been the first witness on special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald’s list. Indeed, it’s possible that he was. Since grand jury investigations are secret, it’s not clear whether Novak has already testified in front of the grand jury, has refused to testify, or has not been asked to testify at all. Neither he nor Fitzgerald will comment on the case.”
from Slate
Please link to one commonly reported article which actually confirms that Novak testified before the grand jury and that he turned over his notes.
Oh, and next time, try not to link to an article of speculation and pretend that it’s factual.
It is sure a shame this is what our great country has come to.
How I love a short and selective memory. Makes the koolaid taste better.
DavidB,
You and the rest of the numbnut Bush supporters can play the “look at my source” and semantic games til you’re blue in the face. My point is that it’s all right-wing smoke. Honest Americans know that Rove/Libby whoever the fvck it was committed a treasonous offense, one that Bush 41 believed was the most heinous of crimes and should be punished to the fullest extent. So you neo-fascist nitwits can spin it til the sun goes down, but it doesn’t change fact that you support a criminal enterprise. If Rove and Bush (and the rest of the administration) beat the wrap on this and all of the other crimes that they’ve commited it’ll only strengthen the argument that this country under the Bushies is a dictatorship and they have essentially stolen power and destroyed democracy. I hope you’re happy with the decision to support these thugs. History will show that you were among the misinformed masses. And that is a sad commentary on the “Republican” cause. Good luck.
Why do I get the feeling that Dan, after calling some of us “numbnut Bush supporters” and “neo-fascist nitwits” didn’t really mean it when he said “Good luck.”?
We interrupt this pissing match for a reasonable exchange:
fatman,
It’s nice to hear from a Republican with a sense of humor. Thanks for proving that they actually exist.
…now back to your regularly scheduled angry exchanges.
RE: Joe Mama’s post (July 5, 2005 05:07 PM)
JM: Rove is evil, his motivations in this case were evil, his politics are evil. Bush follows his lead, so put two and two together.
Using such math, then discrediting Bush in any subsequent critiques is completely verboten. I’m drawing an inference that you believe Bush to be a confused puppy to Rove’s whip, so when Rove snaps Bush barks. Consequently, Bush is now the innocent dupe and Rove is the perpetual “liar” (typical LLL tripe). I guess I should thank you for your calculus seeing as I’m a blinded robot duty bound to salute Sir George. Such a position on Rove insulates the Great One.
JM: And if you want to follow his evil ways, you will need to answer along with them…
Assuming we were to agree on the term “evil”, an unlikely proposition but I’ll concede for the argument, who am I going to answer to? I already stated that I do not share your faith. Neither do I care one wit about what transpires with Mr. Rove. He does not drive my beliefs or direct my interpretation of the political landscape much as the Democratic party would like everyone to believe. Yeah, he’s a political advisor/guide/friend/hack/puppy trainer/pejorative du jour of Mr. Bush. Name a politician of any substance who doesn’t have a team of them.
So what? As it stands now, these are still unsubstantiated claims from a discredited media/political hack of another stripe seeking to resurrect his waning career and import on the American political stage. His is just an unwelcome encore and this scene more likely an attempt to get some receptive audience to throw some coins. Maybe he’ll collect enough to buy his own ticket on the next Self-loathing American – Michael Moore tour.
If Rove broke the law, then prosecute him… legally. Trusting the likes of O’Donnell to provide the “evidence” is foolishness squared. Maybe you should try a better math.
This has really degenerated. I can’t believe that the
good people of this country can’t compromise….
There I go again…
thinkin like an idiot…
Our constitution was sent to us by g-d.
Thank you…
by the way…could you send the notes regarding the specifics of Intelligent Design?
For some reason we’re getting heat regarding specifics…whatever that means.
Dan:
Actually, I was going for vitriolic sarcasm rather than collegial good humor, but thanks anyway.
And believe it or not, most Republicans (of my aquaintence, anyway) DO have a sense of humor. It’s just that being labeled as numbnuts and neo-fascist nitwits (or worse) isn’t likely to bring it out. And yes, I know that there are Republicans/conservatives who are just as bad; two wrongs, however, do not make a right.
Agreed, fatman. Your comment was funny either way. It’s tough to get the tone across with no inflection.
And can we please cut out the “fascist” name-calling. That’s just another way of Godwining yourself. I don’t care what your politics are, this country is a long way from fascism, no matter who’s in the White House.
As for the original point to this thread:
If Valerie Plame was an undercover operative for the CIA (that seems to be in some dispute) and therefore outing her was and is a federal crime, and if Karl Rove was the person who outed her, and evidence can found to support that charge, then Karl Rove (and I paraphrase here) “deserves to be handcuffed, shackled and frog-marched out the front door of the White House.” And if convicted, sent to jail for a long time. But not until then. And certainly not on the (so far) unsupported words of Ted Rall and Lawrence O’Donnell
Edit: In my last comment ^^, Insert the phrase “at the time of her outing” between the words “was” and “an” in the first sentence
Steven,
There is no question that fascism is creeping up on us. Please check out this site and take note of all the valid examples that fit the criteria.
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm
Dan,
I looked over your website. Why don’t you go back and look at it again yourself and pick out the ones of these that are at an all time low in this country. “Rampant Cronyism and Corruption”? I think not (Teapot Dome and Tammany Hall were surely worse). “Corporate Power is Protected” and “Labor Power is Suppressed”? The days of union busting and powerful monopolies were much worse. “Rampant Sexism”? Perhaps it’ll come as a shock to you, but there was a time when women couldn’t vote in this country.
Since we’ve made so much progress on all these fronts, you could say we’ve made great strides away from fascism, and that’s even if we’re buying the whole premise of the “14 identifying characteristics” to begin with.
As I was saying to fatman earlier in another thread where he was explaining why homosexuality and Nazism were inextricably linked, you and he are just opposite sides of the same coin, destined to see fascism/Nazism/Hitler imagery in whatever you don’t like. I’m sorry, but none of the following belong in that gross overgeneralization: American liberals, American conservatives, George Bush, Bill Clinton, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Howard Dean, Tom Delay, or Carson Kressley.
World War II was an incredibly dark era and fascism and man’s capacity for cruelty do need to be remembered and guarded against. But, at the same time, seeing it happening again around every corner just demeans the great tragedy it truly was and the people who died as a result of oppression and to save the rest of the world from the same fate.
Steven, you can deny the fact that we are closer today to fascism as defined by those 14 characteristics then we have ever been all you like, but evidence to the contrary is undeniable and mounting. I guess it depends on where you get your information. Michael Moore is the right’s posterboy for extreme liberalism but they never acknowledge the fatcs. Every claim he made in F9/11 has been backed up by MULTIPLE sources. If you need the link please let me knoe.
Hee, that’s funny. A little knoeledge can be dangerous.
Steven Wizer:
If you’re still around, head over to the “Schwarzenegger For President?” thread and check out my reply.
Dan,
To my specific examples of times when some of these points have been much worse, you retort with, “you can deny the fact that we are closer today to fascism as defined by those 14 characteristics then we have ever been all you like, but evidence to the contrary is undeniable and mounting.” However, with all that “undeniable”, “mounting” evidence at your disposal, you fail to address even one of my specific examples of how far we’ve come as a nation. Let me make it a little easier for you. Let’s just take one at a time. The first point is “Rampant Sexism”. My example will be the specific year 1830. In that year, the following was true:
1) Women couldn’t vote
2) Colleges generally would not accept women students
3) Married women had no property rights
Your challenge is to explain what about today’s society is more sexist than it was in 1830. Once you’ve done that, we’ll go onto the second point and go from there. If you want to concede this one (which I certainly believe you will), I’ll let you choose the next point of discussion.
Overall, what you fail to realize is that we have more information at our disposal than ever before. Bush has certainly made some missteps as a president, there is some corruption in his administration, and he has a goodly amount of pride. Because of our information access, we can discover and publish all his failings like never before, compile our little lists, develop conspiracy theories, and come away foaming at the mouth. But in reality, Bush is just a man like you, with beliefs that guide his decisions; a man that really believes in his country, democracy, and the constitution. If his vision of how things should be differs from yours, then say so, write your congressman, vote Democratic, etc. But if you think he’s a fascist for the way he’s done things, then your understanding of fascism is sorely mistaken.
fatman,
Sorry, it’s been a long week at work and I’ve pretty much been getting up, working, and going to bed. I have a rather long post for you in store in the other thread, but it’ll take awhile to put it together. Meanwhile, I suggest you take a look at the following, since I will be referencing it: PS Analysis. This link is a point-by-point refutation of “The Pink Swastika”. The authors of that book weren’t historians, but they apparently did have advanced degrees in making shit up, as this site shows repeatedly and in great detail. I’m sure that you’ll find it enlightening.