We got a trackback today that I just had to follow. It was on Kevin’s post about Air America ripping off a children’s fund to the tune of a half a million dollars. I had to follow it just for the title: Conservatives, If You Really Care About Kids Then Start Writing About Children Issues
Considering we post fairly often about the education system in this country and other things “about children” I was interested to see why Michael Hussey was complaining. Then I saw what he considered “Children Issues.”
…I have covered the L.G. story on my blog. You may remember when Jeb Bush was trying to intervene to stop L.G. from having an abortion. What was missed in the media madness was that L.G. wanted to have an abortion. This is a girl with a tremendous amount of courage.
This blind to irony liberal whines we don’t write about children’s issues… like abortion… which, last I looked, is the act of killing children.
Somehow Michael, it would be more believable that you cared about children if your post did not advocate killing them. But maybe that’s just me.
Update: You know I posted this under “humor” because I thought it was funny the irony he missed. But after seeing Michael’s retort it is now just pathetic and sad.
He still doesn’t get that arguing that abortion (you know killing children) is a children’s issue is quite ironic. He just doesn’t see it. (He argues that if someone WANTS an abortion it is a children’s issue. (hey I didn’t say he made any sense))
Go read his reply, it really is priceless… but I must warn you… Watching him try to make an intellectual point is like watching a puppy run in front of a car… You see the carnage unfolding, and you’d like to stop it, but no matter how hard you hope, in the end, there is the inevitable splat.
Dear T.J.,
Looked at you chart again to see if my memory was correct. It wasn’t. There are 4 states whose PVA laws are frozen by court injunction. That makes 15 states with no restrictions on PVAs, 19 with exceptions for mental health, and 16 whose restrictions on PVAs will certainly be rescinded by court order.
Those 12000 PVA abortions are happening somewhere,
EH!!
KobeClan writes: It breaks my heart that MY Democratic party has been hijacked by soul-less, God-less, amoral jackasses like you.
I haven’t registered as a Democrat since 1992. Don’t blame the sorry fecklessness of your party on me, you jackass. I’ve had basically nothing to fscking do with it for the last thirteen years.
Feel free to get your head and your ass wired together and stand up for what you really want to believe. When you produce an answer to my question, I’m ready to continue having a polite discourse with you. Not until then.
Dear s9,
Not a Democratic, HEH?? Let me Guess, Liberterian?? NAH!! Communist?? Possibly. Apathetic jackass?? BINGO!! I do believe we have a winner!!
Wait!! I might be wrong. Have the MOONBATS started their on political party??
Again, ask the question, and I’ll give you my answer. I’m surprised that you don’t have more tolerance with a senile person like me. That bad memory and all. So, again, what was your one question??
Another question: If your not a Democrat, who did you vote for in the last election?? Ralph Nader??
BWAAHHHHAHHAAHHAAHHH!!!
BTW, your manners are quite juvenile. Send me your mommy’s address. You certainly are in line for a good spanking!!
Dear s9,
Seriously, I’ve looked through all your rantings and cannot find the same question asked twice. Ask me and I will answer. I am intelligent but not prescient. (I know, probably spelled it wrong. Find it in your black, black heart to forgive me).
I apologize for the mistake. Upon closer inspection, I realize that states without restrictions on PVA’s were omitted (also, I misinterpreted the use of the third trimester as a point in pregnancy; it was actually meant to mean that abortion was restricted to before the third trimester) after a little more research, I have the following statistics:
9 states have no specific restrictions on PVA’s. 5 of these 9 states however, have restrictions on abortion in general
2 of the 4 remaining states restrict partial-birth abortion, leaving 2 states without any significant restrictions on type of abortion.
Dear T.J.,
Again, I will stand by my statement that abortion on demand throughout pregnancy is the law of the land. 12000 PVAs prove my point. What is your point??
If you are 36 weeks pregnant and want an abortion, you can get it.
Your chart is meaningless. Again, can you say “If I can’t get an abortion I’m going to kill myself!!”??
If you can show me any factual evidence (even anectdotal) of a women who made a concerted effort to obtain a PVA and couldn’t get one, I will reconsider my statement. Until then, I stand by the accuracy of my statement.
12,000 PVAs can’t be wrong!!
KobeClan writes: Ask me and I will answer.
No, you won’t. You can’t even be honest enough to admit the question has been clearly posed to you. I’ll prove this, by once again posing it to you— even more clearly, so you can’t possibly miss it this time. You’ll dodge it again.
The question: How can you declare that abortion is child murder, and not then demand the unconditional ban— with the most severe criminal penalties applied to women who have them, medical practitioners who perform them, and third parties who facilitate the service of them— on abortion at all stages of pregnancy everywhere in the world?
I pose this question to you because you have drawn an equivalence between abortion and the murder of children, yet you have not been willing to demand that every woman who experiences a spontaneous miscarriage at six or seven weeks of pregnancy be made into a murder suspect.
Make a fscking decision what you want to believe: A) abortion is not actually child murder, and women who miscarry are to be consoled for their loss, not arrested on a murder rap; or B) abortion is child murder, and every miscarriage is a reason to call out the homicide detectives.
I honestly don’t see how you can argue for a third alternative. What is it going to be for you?
Dear s9,
Thank you again for proving my point. I did not recognize your “one question” because it is rhetorical. It attributes to me opinions I never expressed, such as “…abortion is child murder.” A fair reading of my initial post would conclude that I believe that post-viability abortions are murder. My opinion on earlier-term abortions is not stated.
The miscarriage thing is a poor excuse for a straw man, BTW.
I will try to answer your question as I understand it.
PVAs are murder, and any doctor who performs one should be stripped of his license and prosecuted.
Whether or not the woman should be prosecuted is less clear. I would not. Others could probably make a strong case for doing so.
Abortions during the first trimester are OK with me. I feel this way knowing full well it is the termination of a human life and I pray for God to have mercy on my soul.
The need of women for reproductive control and the protection of human life is a complex issue
that is certainly beyond your capacity to understand. Your statement that legal rights begin after a live birth are truly frightening, amoral at best and truly evil at worst.
As a bonus, I will answer the two questions I posed to you.
Human life begins at conception. Scientific fact. Deal with it.
A fully viable child is certainly entitled to the right to life endowed by our Creator. He would extend this right all the way to conception. Our society will not. So the real issue is when.
I actually liked Roe vs. Wade. Bad law, good policy. Unrestricted abortion 1st trimenster, restricted 2nd trimester, banned 3rd trimester except in pregnancies threatening the LIFE of the mother.
Thats MY opinion on abortion. Now this is were you call me an ass for not agreeing with everything you believe. In my circles we call that “being narrow-minded”. GEE, thats a compliment. It assumes you have a mind!!
Happy moonbattary. Regards KobeClan
KobeClan writes: Now this is were you call me an ass for not agreeing with everything you believe.
No, this is where I call you an ass for getting in my grill when I was calling out Paul for drawing a moral equivalence between abortion and industrialized child murder. It would have been nice if you could have bothered to join me in calling him an extremist, but no— you had to succumb to base tribalism and join the other nitwits who were defending him.
I think your position is the result of typical American pragmatism, which a lot of folks think is a variety of moral relativism. Now, don’t get me wrong— I proudly call myself a pragmatist too, though I come to a different position on abortion rights than you do.
But the fact is, you’ve answered the question by choosing to deny that abortion is child murder. Fine. That’s my position too. It does make it harder for you to make a moral argument against unrestricted abortion on demand at all stages of pregnancy, but I’m not trying to press you on that. You can take that up with someone who cares.
Oh yeah— and, nice dig there on calling me “evil” when we both apparently share the same moral philosophy.
Dear s9,
How can you read what I wrote and come up with such an illogical conclusion??
First, I “got on your ass” for lying about “the right-wing” eroding Roe vs. Wade. Patently false stetement on your part.
Second, I ADMITTED that abortion terminates a human life. I am willing to permit early abortions because I have first-hand experiences of the havoc caused by an unwanted pregnancy, and may God have mercy on my soul. Abortion IS the murder of a human being. How you could not see that in my answer is beyond me.
Third, I RESPECT those people who would disagree with me on 1st trimester abortions.
Fourth, you stated that you would grant legal protection to a human being only after birth. What is a full-term fetus when it is 99% through delivery?? An unviable tissue mass?? If you believe it is not “human”, than you are amoral or evil.
Fifth, We do have common ground, you’re just too dense to see it. If women in America ever lose their right to an abortion, even in early pregnancy, it will be the stubborness of people like you that will be the cause.
You may remember C. Everett Koop, former U.S. Surgeon General. He used to be a supporter of abortion-on-demand until he went into an NICU (neonatal intensive care unit) and had a BFO: that it was legal to abort fetuses who were further along in development than the neonates he was treating. If you call it pragmatism, I’ll agree.
Sixth, My apologies, you can be funny, followed your links today. Hilarious!! Guess you do have a chance for a long life as a troll!
KobeClan writes: First, I “got on your ass” for lying about “the right-wing” eroding Roe vs. Wade. Patently false stetement on your part.
Still not willing to face the reality of what anti-abortion conservatives have done to limit access to abortion services, i.e. championed the Casey side in Planned Parenthood vs. Casey which put more limits on 2nd trimester abortions; the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003, which bans a surgical procedure previously used in 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions; they championed Laci and Connor’s Law, which declares a congressional intent that fetuses be accorded rights as persons; conservatives have met with great success eroding the coverage of reproductive health care for women in poverty relying on government assistance to pay for their care; and they have used indirect (and sometimes illegal, even terrorist) tactics to drive abortion providers out of whole regions of various states.
It’s easier for me to believe that you know all this and you’re lying about it to help conservatives cover their tracks with the pragmatists in their ranks, than it is to believe that this is all news to you.
The Republican Party platform has had a plank for the last twenty-five years calling for a constitutional amendment banning abortion outright— conservative Republicans have relentlessly moved to limit access to abortion services wherever possible. Even to the extent that they have prevented women on overseas military bases from getting abortions.
And here you are trying to blow smoke about how it just isn’t true— you’d have me believe that conservative Republicans are so pro-choice they’re likely to make late-term abortion into an extreme sport, and use it to sell advertisements for natural male enhancement and cosmetic breast implant surgery.
Who on Earth are you expecting to be that stupid?
KobeClan likes to say: Human life begins at conception. Scientific fact. Deal with it.
I, on the other hand, continue to argue that human life began some 200,000 years ago when the Home sapiens genome diverged from that of other hominid species.
KobeClan thinks this is disingenuous. She (using the correct pronoun now that she has disclosed having first-hand experience with unplanned pregnancy) seems to be insisting that “human life” is shorthand for “a human being” reasserts that “abortion is the murder of a human being.”
That’s apparently in complete contradiction to her earlier statement that “abortions during the first trimester are OK.” But maybe it isn’t. Maybe, KobeClan thinks that some murders are okay and others are unacceptable.
As to her assertion that conception is the beginning of a human life, she leaves an open question to linger: why did she say conception and not fertilization? Conception is when a blastocyst implants in the endometrium. It’s already a few hundred cells at that point. What is it about conception that marks the start of a human life in her mind?
She asserts that killing a blastocyst after implantation in the endometrium is murder, but not one second before. She further asserts that the “murder” of a blastocyst is acceptable at any point in its growth cycle until it reaches a nebulously defined stage she calls “post-viability” somewhere around the 22nd or 23rd week, or earlier or later, depending on the state of the art in the medical facility where the blastocyst-turned-fetus is examined.
I have to ask: what other kinds of murders are okay, and shouldn’t be prosecuted?
Should murder even be a crime at all?
Dear s9,
I give up! Trying to have an intelligent conversation with a person without intelligence is the definition of insanity.
Your lie involved rolling back the rights granted by Roe vs. Wade. The EXPANSION of those rights is what most Americans wish to see rolled back.
I have had fun playing with your mind, but it not much of a challenge since you seem to only be able to play one game, and a very simple one at that.
I’m tired of playing checkers with you. I’m going back to the table with the big boys and play a game of chess or two.
You remind me of the class clown who thinks everyone is laughing with him while the truth is everyone is laughing AT him.
I must thank you for showing me the inner workings of the moonbat mind. Fortunately, it didn’t take too long because there’s not much there.
And I stand by my previous statement. Anyone who believes humans should not have legal rights until after their birth is either amoral or evil. Dirt stupid is another option, but you’re not stupid.
Intellectually dishonest buffoon (IDB) seems still to be your best fit, with a heaping dose of amorality tossed in for good measure.
Actually, I think evil describes you best. To say the murder of innocent children is a negligible price to pay for abortion rights is evil at its most vile and base. You also must be a male. No female I’ve ever known has as dank, dark, and cruel a heart as yours.
I also figure you’re well educated, 30+ with a dead-end, low paying job who blames his personal failures on people like me: God-fearing, hard-working, wealthy social conservatives who raise their children to be God-fearing, hard-working, successful conservatives who will raise my grandchildren to be God-fearing ……. …………..
Gee, that describes just about every moonbat out there. I’m stereotyping moonbats!!! Get I am a bigot, just like you!!
Dear s9,
You really are an ASSHAT!! My firsthand experience with unwanted pregnancies was from my 12 months of volunteer work at a crisis pregnancy center!!
You’re also wrong about the meanings of conception and fertilization, which I’m sure you’re aware of. That and your BORING 200,000 yrs ago schtick just proves what a one-trick pony you are.
Like I said in the previous post, which I wrote before your last post, when you learn some better tricks, look me up.
BTW, if you get back by midnight, please call me a Nazi. I’m in a moonbat fishing tournament and if T.J. doesn’t come back or you don’t call me a Nazi, I’m only going to finish third. That last post was good for 23 points, put me in 3rd, but I really want to win.
If I told you I’m worth $2.5 million, own my own business, and have an eight-inch Johnson could I get you mad enough to call me a Nazi?? Fascist is 5 points less and will only get me into 3rd.
Thats get me into 2nd. My bad!!
“I’m in a moonbat fishing tournament and if T.J. doesn’t come back or you don’t call me a Nazi, I’m only going to finish third.”
I sincerely hope that isn’t meant to insult me, because I have only stated facts about the state of PVA’s (while maintaining a certain degree of politeness). I simply saw a statement of yours that seemed incorrect and wished to correct it; I really had no interest in participating in this debate. For now, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were speaking out of anger over your argument. If that is indeed the case, I will let it go.
Dear T.J.
Thank you for your timely return. I finished in 2nd place.
Your “facts” are totally irrelevent. They do not reflect the current availibility of abortion as it exists today. As I stated before, 12,000 PVAs make your contribution to this thread completely lodged in a parallel universe. The chart you linked to has no meaning without an understanding of current law or the real world. I will pose a similar question: If the Guttmacher people published a list showing 87% of 3rd world countries have declared the world flat, would you cancel your around-the-world cruise??
Dear s9′
I hope you come back to read this post. I have played you for a total fool, which wasn’t too hard.
Most of my homies at my HNC (‘Hood Numismatic Club) are big bloggers and blog-surfers. We came up with moonbat fishing about 4 months ago. Ten of us put in $30 each. The rules were simple: hook a moonbat: defined as a posted comment with a response from a moonbat that did not mention the moonbats moniker but got a response and then keep the moonbat “on the line”. I told you I used “baited” intentionally.
You get points based on the number of responses and the amount of vitriol heaped on you by your moonbat (playing the fish), I thought for sure I’d win when you followed me to archive (100 bonus points). Points also for asking factual questions which are ignored or distorted (extra thanks to s9).
T.J. showing up was worth 75 points (25 points for “troll-swarm”, 50 for 1st showing up in archive).
T.J.’s last post put me in 2nd.
Thank you both for winning me $100.
You might not know what a HNC is. That’s were middle-aged men with too much money get together to pay too much money for old money. Inside joke. If you don”t get it, don’t worry. Don’t think either one of you will ever be to a point in time were it matters.
KobeClan writes: I told you I used “baited” intentionally.
Still doesn’t make the metaphor work. And I’m totally unfamiliar with the ways of middle-aged men with too much money. What is a “Numistmatic Club” anyway?
*sigh* I suspected it would turn out like this. KobeClan, regardless of what you might think, I’ve made a decent case that what you had said earlier is a bit of an exaggeration. All I wanted to do was try and keep the facts straight, and I’ve provided enough information here for that purpose. I hope our next encounter will be more pleasant than this turned out to be.
Dear T.J.,
You can’t expect to show up at a knife fight with a plastic fork and not get cut. My statement that abortion-on-demand is correct, I stand by it, and nothing in your chart refutes that fact. If you can explain to me how 12,000 PVAs a year get performed I might have a little bit of respect for you. NOTHING in that chart provides any evidence, in fact, it is WORTHLESS!!
You can go stick your moonbat head in the sand and convince yourself that PVAs don’t occur, post-viability fetuses aren’t human, and abortion is not murder. Be sure to wear your tin-foil hat, it will help you dig deeper into the sand.
And what do you mean you “suspected it would turn out like this…”? To say you made “a decent case…” has to rank as one of the most asinine statements I’ve heard in a while. If you want to make a case, go for it, but you’ll need more than that worthless chart.
Dear s9,
You’re slipping, you used the word “metaphor” incorrectly. Sounds like you’re dealing with a slice of humble pie. We get a lot of that after our moonbat finds himself flopping around on the bottom of the boat. No insults.
I predict moonbat fishing will spread like wildfire across the web. Have already got feedback from other groups.
And you moonbats are so easy to hook, all you have to do is point out an obviously incorrect fact on one of your posts and you rise like a trout to the first mayfly of the season.
Doubt you’ll learn anything. Fish are smarter than moonbats, after all.
“And what do you mean you “suspected it would turn out like this…”?”
I was afraid that this was going to degrade into a flame war, where reasonable discourse would be difficult – unfortunately that is how it’s turning out. I’ve ignored your statement about 12000 PVA’s because it doesn’t really say much; I know the number, but I don’t have any other relevant information. At the very least, give me some citation so that I can look into it myself. I contest your statement about unrestricted abortion being the law of the land because:
– It only applies to 9 states (and I doubt a pregnant woman is going to travel to a different state JUST for an abortion of a viable fetus)
– It simply seems impractical to have a late term abortion (I would certainly hope that six months is PLENTY of time to have made one’s decision AND acted on it), so I am not currently inclined to believe that a woman is going to just decide to get one in the third trimester.
If you want to have a calm discussion about this, I’m up for it. Who knows, maybe we’d both come off of it slightly more enlightened than we were beforehand. Otherwise, I’m just not in the mood for a name-calling contest.
Dear T.J.
My sources are the Journal of the American Medical Association and the New England Journal of Medicine. Fact. In the year 2001, 15,000 PVAs were performed, 3,000 therapeutic and 12,000 non-therapeutic.
Please go back to your chart and look at the background info. To pass Supreme Court muster, a law MUST have an exception for BOTH the life and the HEALTH of the mother, including MENTAL HEALTH. Most legal scholars say this was a way for the Supreme Court to allow unrestricted PVAs without saying it OUT LOUD!! One of those legal scholars is RUTH BADER GINSBURG!!!!!!!
The SUPREME COURT IS THE LAW OF THE LAND!!!!!!!!
I said abortion-on-demand is the law of the land.
I most respectfully ask you to tell me why my stetement is not accurate and why I and RUTH BADER GINSBURG are wrong.
Thank you for that information. I’ve tried looking through their websites for some more details now, but I still haven’t found the location of that information. If you could provide me with any possible links to these statistics or articles, then that would be incredibly helpful (the JAMA website has a subscription fee, so I can’t get the full articles).
I did a quick look for statements of some legal scholars (concerning the Supreme Court Rulings), but I don’t know of the best search terms to enter into google. Either way, I’m confident that with enough information, I can come to my own conclusions; I just need to make sure that I actually have enough info.
Here’s how I see it:
The majority of states have sufficient restrictions on late-term abortions. I believe that exceptions for life-endangerment, physical health and mental health are appropriate (and I’m speaking of real mental health risks; stress alone isn’t enough, and I don’t think the “I’m going to kill myself” routine will be a big problem). I don’t really think that that abortion laws are going to become too much lighter either. If you’re lucky, the remaining states may even tighten their laws a bit. This is why I think it’s an exaggeration to say abortion-on-demand is the law of the land.
Dear T.J.,
You can do a search for “post viability abortion frequency” or thy this link:
http://www.ppl.org/PJune_PostViability_2001.html
You will see the numbers are for 1997, similar to most years. You will see the statement that the Supreme Court has so broadly defined “health” of the mother so broadly as to be meaningless.
Digest this info and get back to me. Its a long report, but a real eye-opener. It is from a pro-life site, but the documentation is well-sourced and fully referrenced at the bottom. You should be able to use this as a starting point.
Like I said before, 12,000 non-therapeutic PVAs a year is a steep price to pay for reproductive freedom.
Thank you. I started with the google search (the link looked a bit long, so I’ll need to find some time for it). I didn’t find anything quite as convenient as a page of statistics (nothing’s ever easy >_
ack! Someone broke my comment. Anyway, I’ll be looking at that as soon as I can.
Dear T.J.,
If you’re wondering why I lament the fate of my Democrat Party? Have you heard the NARAL commercial opposing Roberts?? I’ve never seen so many lies packed into so short a time span. And they say “trust us, it ain’t human until its born.”
I’ll never be a member of the “stupid party”, but I don’t think I can ever vote for a Democrat above the local level ever again. Nationally, the party is drifting toward socialism and beyond (Marxism, Stalinism, Maoism, Trotskyism). Is abortion-on-demand the price we have to pay to be a loyal Democrat?? TOO high a price for me.
I’m not very knowledgable about political stuff…but yeah, I can definitely see what you mean (Way too much whining from some democratic politicians for my taste). I … still haven’t finished that article (been a little busy), but I plan on getting to it. Until my next post, peace out.