For all of you watching the live coverage of the flooding of New Orleans and are puzzled by the name game the anchors are playing with the verbiage there is an explanation you might not be aware of.
The Army Corps of Engineers DOES NOT want the media to call it a levee break or a levee breach. Why does it matter? The upcoming lawsuits. If the levee “fails” then the Corps is responsible. BUT if the repair fails they will try to argue they were not… So here is a brief explainer of the various verbs you’re hearing.
* The water “over-topped” the levee. Congress told the Corps how tall to build them. If the water exceed that height, don’t blame the Corps, blame Congress.
* The water “Spilled Over” the levee. The same as above with the addition of a laughable visual image. That 20 feet of water in your home? It was just a little “spill” get a “Bounty Quicker Pickerupper” and it will all be OK.
* The levee “broke, breached, failed” etc bad bad bad for the Corps. That means they screwed up. They designed and built something that failed.
* The “repair got over-topped.” The Corps says “Well, we did the best we could.”
* The “repair failed.” See above.
Bottom line??? The Corps is trying to spin this instead of giving people accurate information to people that will use to make live and death decision. I don’t care about the name game. I want the Army Corps of Engineers giving people the most accurate information they can. That did not happen and is not happening.
When the Corps of Engineers is looking at a waterfall of water coming into the city and saying the levees are “in tact,” it gives people (who are mostly listening by radio right now) a false and dangerous picture of the situation.
Does that get me mad? You betchya.
Update: The moron from the Corps is STILL saying there are no levee breaches on FOXNews as I type. It all depends on what your definition of “breached” is.
Just ask all the know-it-alls in the comments section.
No! There is a big difference between overtopping and a levee breach. Overtopping just floods, breaching sends a sudden cascade into the city! Don’t be like Humpty-Dumpty; please use the definition used by the professionals who are out there trying to preserve lives and property.
More here: On the Levees of New Orleans, Update 14
That mayor has got to go. He is an idiot, MAN!!
Saying there is no difference between a “breach” and “over the top” is like saying there is no difference between over-filling a glass with milk until it spills, and shattering the glass on the ground.
How about : HUGE GAPING HOLE!
Not sure if that is a technical term, though.
I gotta say i disagree with you. I think an overflowing or ‘overtopped’ or overspilled levee is VERY different from a breeched levee. if it is just spillign over the top and you can find a place to pump it out to, if it is breached/broken you can pump all day long and it won’t matter. when the reain stops it will keep coming in. with the overflow when the rain stops it will stop coming in.
Keep in mind that in reality NO ONE should be back in there. even the rescue/cleanup crews should be out ahead of this happening. There is not likely to be any NEW damage from this. I guess I just don’t see the problem.
Sounds like the head of the Army Corp of Engineers is taking his cue from the Liar-in-Chief. Typical engineer. They think that whatever they design is perfect.
Overtopping just floods, breaching sends a sudden cascade into the city!
Solomon… Just a guess here- You don’t a TV near you do you? “a sudden cascade” would be an understantement.
please use the definition used by the professionals who are out there trying to preserve lives and property.
They are not trying to preserve lives… They are tying to preserve their asses.
The Levee has not yet been breached. This is overtopping and there is a difference. If you know what to look for you can clearly see that the levee is still holding and this is water pouring over, and yes it has washed away some of the top repair. It has not been breached.
Saying there is no difference between a “breach” and “over the top” is like saying there is no difference between over-filling a glass with milk until it spills, and shattering the glass on the ground.
The big difference between the two is the aftermath. If the levee is overtopped, the water stops coming in once the water level in the canal drop below the top of the levee. If the levee is breached, then the water doesn’t stop coming in until the water gets lower than the bottom of the breach. That can be quite a difference in levels.
Paul is correct that the pictures would seem to indicate that the levee has been breached. However, if the water level is completely over the top of the levee as the Corps claims, they may not be able to distinguish breachingom overtopping until the water level in the canal starts to go down. If you can’t see the top of the levee, you can’t tell for sure what is going on. You can take a good guess, but you just don’t know for sure.
OK for those of you who want to play the name game…
What it “Breached” last week?
Did it heal itself in the mean time?
It is “still” breached?
Oh never mind.
Mamesh:
You’re wrong. The shots I’ve been seeing show, quite clearly, that the levee has been breached in at least one location. It was obviously caused by overtopping, which washed out the back side of the levee, and there’s a great big hole about 30 feet across and ten feet or so deep. That is a “breach.”
Didn’t they already do a study that said the levees failed during Katrina?
The forces were within what they were supposed to be able to handle and it was poor design or building that caused the breach… I will try to find a link.
So it seems like that cat is already out of the bag on this one.
Mamesh,
If you have been watching any of this on television you would see that while it may have started out as over topping, the levee on the Industrial canal is completely compromised now.
The non-breach is at least 15-20 feet deep.
While I do not know if anything could have been done to prevent this in the short time since Katrina — the water is high enough to cause wave over topping along several levees — this is not a time for CYA. The thousands of people that came back at Nagins urging need to have precise and correct information right now.
A wall of water is heading through town, they need to know exactly what areas will be hit he hardest so they can get out of the way.
Tragedy plus time yields comedy. I am beyond sorrow at this point. As a Green Wave who landed in New Orleans on the tailwinds of Hurricane Betsy, and with family in LA & TX, comic relief (battlefield or hospital humor, if you will) seems a reasonable escape at this point. I am called back to this movie and to this song:
Musical “Paint Your Wagon” soundtrack
The Gospel Of No Name City lyrics
You wanna see sin of the wickedest kind?
Here it is!
You wanna see virtue left behind?
Here it is!
Sodom was vice And visa-versa
You wanna say where the vice is worser?
Here it is! I mean, here it is!
You wanna live life in the rottenest city?
Here it is!
Women and whiskey, night and day?
Here it is!
You wanna embrace the golden calf?
Ankle, and thigh, and upper half?
Here it is! I mean, here it is!
No name city. No name city.
The Lord don’t like it here!
No name city. No name city.
Your reckoning day is near!
No name city. No name city.
Here’s what He’s gonna do:
Gobble up this town,
And swallow it down,
And goodbye to you!
Will you go to heaven?Will you go to hell?
GO TO HELL! (chorus)
Either repent, or fare thee well!
FARE THEE WELL! (chorus)
God will take care of no name city!
Comes the end, and it won’t be pretty!
Here it is! I mean, here it is!
Here it is! I mean, here it is!
Here it is! I mean, here it is!
Amen!
Can someone please get Paul some sedatives or maybe keep him from posting until this all passes? I mean, I like Paul, but his “live as it happens” ranting is a bit much. Let’s save it until after all is said and done, shall we?
Look at the clear constancy of rapids along the entire length of the submerged levee. Please explain how that can be if there was any significant breach.
Paul,
I wonder if you would pose this “coming lawsuit” to your community of readers, many of whom are lawyers.
IANAL, but my sense of this is that “acts of God” such as floods, are not actionable.
Mamesh,
What are you watching?
The breach goes right through about fifty feet of a temporary levee that is several hundred feet long.
BIG GAPING HOLE!
I’ll put this out there as a legitimate question to Paul, although I’m sure many will answer as well.
Are you only upset that the Army Corps of Engineers said that the levee will hold? Do you truly believe that they would lie about this and risk the lives of so many people because of politics or lawsuits? And how do people sue over an act of God anyway? Maybe I just think that no one out there is that calaculating and cold. One thing is certain, you can always say you are prepared until Mother Nature shows you your weaknesses.
And if most of the people listening are doing so by radio, what does it matter what someone is saying on Foxnews? I’ve read multiple stories from St. Bernard’s Parish representatives stating that the flooding is bad and that people should leave immediately. I imagine that is the info they are getting by radio, not the stuff from Foxnews.
Not everyone is as sinister as you seem inclined to believe they are.
>I wonder if you would pose this “coming lawsuit” to your community of readers, many of whom are lawyers.
>but my sense of this is that “acts of God” such as floods, are not actionable.
Clearly you ain’t one. No, you can not sue God.
But if the levee did not perform up to the specifications then OBVIOUSLY the construction company who built it is liable.
If it was designed wrong than the design engineers will be sued.
Just because it was “an act of God” does not give everyone a legal pass on their responsibilities.
I’m really not trying to slam you. (no really) but dude, quit arguing for arguments sake and think your comments thru.
This is semantic insanity.
The latest AP update via Yahoo! news describes the situation as a 100-foot-wide waterfall that “poured over and through” the Industrial Canal levee.
I’m no engineer, but for water to pour through the levee, that would indicate to me that it has to be breached or broken.
If it is breached in an area where it was repaired, then common sense says that the repair failed, water is coming in, and that anyone in that area is in immediate danger. Period.
Every news account I am seeing indicates that it was a repaired section of the Industrial Canal levee where the water is coming in. And the Yahoo/AP account I refer to above specifically quotes a Georgia National Guardsman as saying that there are three “significant breaches” in the levee.
I’ve never been to, nor do I know a damn thing about New Orleans, but between the written accounts and the photos and video coming out of the city today, it’s pretty obvious: the levee failed. If it didn’t, the 9th Ward would be dry.
That the ACOE seems to be splitting rhetorical hairs about it is very frustrating.
I’m really not trying to slam you. (no really) but dude, quit arguing for arguments sake and think your comments thru.
In all sincerity, might I suggest you do the same.
“…think your comments thru.”
Good advice, Paul.
Okay, let’s go back to post one, question one:
“…now that you’ve dismissed the entire US Army Corps of Engineers as “morons” and “idiots” who are “stupid”, I must assume you possess sufficient expertise in the field of hydro engineering to make that assessment. So, I ask you; what exactly, and with detailed specificity, is your solution for keeping an area that is below sea level from flooding, both now, after a catastrophic Category 4 hurricane, and in the future?”
Care to field this now, or should I just “fuck off” and expect this post to be shut down as well?
Here’s a simplistic analogy.
You build a wall to keep an enemy out. In this case you call the wall a levee and the enemy is water.
If the enemy gets past that wall, it has breached your defense. It doesn’t matter if it came under, through, or over.
>Are you only upset that the Army Corps of Engineers said that the levee will hold?
Not exclusively. I’m not pleased pols are talking about RASING taxes in LA, but for today’s discussion, this is close enough. Well – other than they are lying to the public in the present tense.
>Do you truly believe that they would lie about this and risk the lives of so many people because of politics or lawsuits?
Ummmm. Yes. Why? Because it is happening! Quit arguing with me and open your ears. I’m not making these quotes up. Go turn on the TV and hear the tortured explanations.
>And how do people sue over an act of God anyway?
I’m sorry Mike, you have officially excused yourself from being considered rational. You DON’T think people will be suing my the thousands? It most be nice living in Candlyland, but I live in the real world.
>Maybe I just think that no one out there is that calaculating and cold.
Man, put on a raincoat because your bubble is going to burst- BIG TIME.
The real question is whether these repairs are getting washed away or not. If they’re getting washed away then we’re looking at Katrina, Part Deux in New Orleans without 100,000 unwilling extras this time. However, if this is just rising water pouring over the top of the repairs without tearing away the repaired dikes themselves then the water will stop coming in when the storm passes and pumping the water out can start pretty much right away.
I don’t have access to a TV right now, and am not getting a clear picture on this situation from the internet right now. Does anyone know for a certainty whether the dike repairs are holding or not?
Cardinal, I answered you, go read.
I’m not going to debate this further. The water however is puring rapidly over and it is an awful scenario, it may pretty quickly come to the point that it does not matter. The only point at this time is that if it is breached the water will raise to a higher level than if it isn’t.
Alex,
The sources you are citing are the same sources that pushed the “10,000 dead” meme. I’m in no position to say what they are reporting is wrong because I’m not standing on top of the levees right now (and neither is anyone else!), just that they are notorious for being prone to hyperbole. Right now it’s a ratings race to be the “first with the worst” so they’ll say just about anything to get the audience.
Cheers,
The Army Corps of Engineers probably has no exposure to monetary damages in this situation. 33 U.S.C. 702c :”No liability of any kind shall attach to or rest upon the United States for any damage from or by floods or flood waters at any place.”
Courts have pretty uniformly construed this provision VERY broadly.
Stephen Macklin:
Bad analogy.
The real terminology (as people have used for a very long time):
If the water level goes over the levee without damaging it, that’s just overtopping.
If the levee has an actual physical gap due to damage, that’s a breach. There are several causes of breaches, including erosion (often caused by overtopping).
Breaches can also be caused by things like barges striking the levee, ground settling due to seismic events, or other things.
NOTE: Please Read (look at) Update 2 Before Posting Again
I’m sorry Mike, you have officially excused yourself from being considered rational. You DON’T think people will be suing my the thousands? It most be nice living in Candlyland, but I live in the real world.
Sorry, should have phrased it differently. I agree, I know people will be sueing by the thousands, but do they have footing? Do they have a case that merits consideration. I don’t think they do. This is an act of God and the people bringing the case live in an area that Nature never intended to be developed. But you are right, people will sue. And I still don’t believe that the Army Corps of Engineers would send someone onto Foxnews to intentionally play politics to head off future lawsuits while people are (and thus placing more people) in harm’s way.
>the people bringing the case live in an area that Nature never intended to be developed.
Can you give me 3 places nature DID intend to be developed?
Saw the picture…but what I’m still trying to find is your detailed plan for keeping water out of an area that is below sea level, one that is feesible engineering-wise and better than the current ACoE plan.
I looked on the closed posts “New Orleans Already Flooding” and “New Orleans Officials: No Breach in Levee”, but didn’t find your plan. I’ve also read this one top to bottom, but can’t find anything close to a plan. So, for the sake of expediency, since you say, “I answered you, go read” perhaps a quick cut-n-paste will help with my now-unending quest to get you to answer the question.
Ummmm. Yes. Why? Because it is happening! Quit arguing with me and open your ears. I’m not making these quotes up. Go turn on the TV and hear the tortured explanations.
Paul, the picture shows that the levee is breached. This article states that the sheriff and others have announced this already. So I’m sure that people who need to know are getting the information. There are more news outlets than Fox. I do not have access to TV at this point, but I would agree that if the guy is still saying there is no breach, than he is an idiot.
Paul,
I guess I’m one of the nimrods that agrees with you on this one. I did before the image you posted. The fixed camera FOXNews feed for the past several hours has been showing a breached (as in some level of depression from what looks like erosion) levee with concomitant overtopping to the peripheries. Perhaps that is the case elsewhere.
Furthermore, I’m not naive enough to believe that there are not lawsuits lying in wait. GeoBandy mentioned an interesting legal code which may provide some protection as it would seem considerable historical precedent has been established. Considering the loss of employment and assets by such a large quantity of people and the loss of life by a relative few, however, pockets will be fondled. Juries will see whose get picked.
Sure looks like a breach to me. That’s about the breachiest non-breach I ever laid eyes on. after the water goes down again one might go breachcombing there and find some seashells and shit like that.
Carnial,
For the second -and last- time. I don’t fault them for the city flooding. I fault them for lying to the public about the conditon of the levees.
My abilty or inabilty to produce “a plan” is quite irrelivent to the situation. You can’t produce “a plan” to put a man on mars. It is hardly relivent to the Corps’ spin game.
Paul,
At the risk of not thinking through this comment before I post it, I’ll agree with you:
If the levee system “did not live perform up to the specifications then OBVIOUSLY the construction company who built it is liable.”
I think it’s pretty much an established fact that the entire levee system in New Orleans was designed to perform up to the specifications of holding back the floodwaters of a Category 3 hurricane.
As it happens, New Orleans is being pounded by two successive Category 4 hurricanes.
My opinion (am I free to have an opinion here without being called a moron and told to fuck off?) is that:
a) the Corps is not participating in semantic games as a way of deflecting lawsuits. Your other commenters are correct; there will be MANY lawsuits. Every shyster in Louisiana with a law degree will be chasing every ambulance they can find, as soon as people return. Lawsuits are already being filed against insurance companies to force them to pay for flood damage that they didn’t insure against.
b) There will be no successful lawsuits against the US Army Corps of Engineers, the designers, or the builders of these levees.
c) If there looks like there MIGHT ONE DAY BE a successful lawsuit against the Corps of Engineers, Congress will indemnify the Corps by fiat. Case closed.
Everyone knows that these levees were destroyed, not by shoddy design, but by an act of God that they were not designed to prevent.
Anyone who ever lived in New Orleans knew the risk, or should have. Certainly if they cared about risk in their lives, they could and should have known about this particular risk.
A good faith cost-benefit analysis was made when the decision was made as to how large these levees were to be built. The taxpayers of Louisiana and the country, through their elected representatives, decided to build a Cat 3 levee system.
Hey, guess what? On average, about every 200 years, there will be a Cat 5 Hurricane that hits New Orleans.
So, the lawyers may sue. But the levee breach was caused by an act of God. So they won’t win.
>I guess I’m one of the nimrods that agrees with you on this one. I did before the image you posted. The fixed camera FOXNews feed for the past several hours has been showing a breached…
AnonymousDrivel,
What happened here is that the people who saw it on Television got it right away. The people who only read the post had no clue the magnitude of the situation. For example:
breaching sends a sudden cascade into the city!!
Television made a huge difference on this. The picture on CNN of the waterfall going into the city with the words “Corps: No Breach In Levees” was simply laughable.
When did Paul suggest that the water could be stopped? If he said that then I missed it.
Isn’t the whole point the fact that thousands of people were told it was safe to stay when it isn’t?
At least, that’s what I’m getting.
Unfortunately, it will in most cases never be an issue whether anyone has liability, because very few, if any, suits will go to court (where with an honest competent judge, most, if not all, would be tossed out). The federal government will hand out settlements to the uninsured, cover insurers who are overextended, and pay millions in claims for losses that never occurred. All at taxpayer expense.
SilverBubble,
I think my point is that everyone who has ever lived in New Orleans knew from the GET GO it was NEVER SAFE to live in New Orleans.
It was always a GAMBLE.
It wasn’t SAFE yesterday, isn’t SAFE today, and won’t be SAFE tomorrow either.
Paul,
Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.
When heads roll at ACoE over all their malfeasance that you’ve cited here, there will be plenty of openings for folks like you who aren’t “morons” and “idiots” that are “stupid” and just want to “spin” their “crimes against the citizens.”
I think the SF 171 is the application form. Good luck.
Does it matter if the people who sue are successful or not? It’s still a pain-in-the-ass process, and lawyers don’t come cheap. Plus, there’s public image to consider. If the ACoE did screw up, they will be roased over the media coals for it. Those who are the higher-ups in the ACoE who were personally responsible for the screw-ups (if they happened) will likely be axed.
Paul, I read the blog a lot and often find a lot of good insight to what you report on, but I think that your anger here is a bit over the top.
I’m not even saying you are right or wrong, tho probably right, but geez, you might want to relax before you have a heart attack or something.
There’s plenty more things to get rabid about than temporary repairs on a flooded city.
I propose a change in terminology to reflect a more black and white world, rather than the euphemistic world we all seem to live in.
I propose that future discussion of the levee systems use one of two descriptions, as follows:
1) The levee is holding – This means that the aforemention earthworks are keeping torrents of water away from the piece of real estate that they were constructing to keep dry.
2) The levee has failed – This means that, in contrast to “holding”, the civil works project is no longer keeping the rising waters at bay. As a result of this inability to keep the water contained to the lake/river/oceanfront that it is erected in front of, water is flooding into the area to be protected from the lake/river/ocean originally designed to be kept out.
Thus, as soon as water started to “over-top” the levee, the levee had failed. If the levee system had held, there would be no water in the the 9th Ward other than any that would have fallen as rain IN the 9th Ward (at least until we put a roof on the 9th Ward to keep the poverty-stricken hermetically sealed in their coffins).
>My opinion (am I free to have an opinion here without being called a moron and told to fuck off?) is that:
If it comes even close to being sensical of course. If you are a blathering idiot, I’ll call it like I see it. – regardless of your politcal persuation or other considerations.
>a) the Corps is not participating in semantic games as a way of deflecting lawsuits.
Simple question: Then why are they doing it?
The fact they are playing the game is undenyable. Just watch the news guys. SO.. since we know they are doing it and you reject my explaination of their motivation, please explain to me why they are doing it. If you give me a better explaination, I might just agree.
———
>I think it’s pretty much an established fact that the entire levee system in New Orleans was designed to perform up to the specifications of holding back the floodwaters of a Category 3 hurricane.
>As it happens, New Orleans is being pounded by two successive Category 4 hurricanes. …
>Everyone knows that these levees were destroyed, not by shoddy design, but by an act of God that they were not designed to prevent.
You REALLY REALLY need to read this, Experts Say Faulty Levees Caused Much of Flooding
Read it closely. I have pictures I have chosen not to post (yet) -but will mail you- that show what APPEARS to be a scum line 4 feet below the top of the wall. Other engineers have documented the same thing. Furhter, the scum lines on the houses behind the wall support this.
If the wall broke when it still had 4 feet of freeboard left, the lawsuits will fly.
Well – they will fly anyway- but if the wall broke well before the design specs it will be the story of the year.
>There’s plenty more things to get rabid about than temporary repairs on a flooded city.
You are absolutly correct… There are only tens of thousands of people in jeapordy who are not getting real information from public officials… But I’m sure you’re right…. There must be more important things going on in the world…
Can you BELIEVE Britanny Spears giving her kid the initial PMS… Like OMG- What was SHE thinking!?!?
Thanks for the reality check.