For all of you watching the live coverage of the flooding of New Orleans and are puzzled by the name game the anchors are playing with the verbiage there is an explanation you might not be aware of.
The Army Corps of Engineers DOES NOT want the media to call it a levee break or a levee breach. Why does it matter? The upcoming lawsuits. If the levee “fails” then the Corps is responsible. BUT if the repair fails they will try to argue they were not… So here is a brief explainer of the various verbs you’re hearing.
* The water “over-topped” the levee. Congress told the Corps how tall to build them. If the water exceed that height, don’t blame the Corps, blame Congress.
* The water “Spilled Over” the levee. The same as above with the addition of a laughable visual image. That 20 feet of water in your home? It was just a little “spill” get a “Bounty Quicker Pickerupper” and it will all be OK.
* The levee “broke, breached, failed” etc bad bad bad for the Corps. That means they screwed up. They designed and built something that failed.
* The “repair got over-topped.” The Corps says “Well, we did the best we could.”
* The “repair failed.” See above.
Bottom line??? The Corps is trying to spin this instead of giving people accurate information to people that will use to make live and death decision. I don’t care about the name game. I want the Army Corps of Engineers giving people the most accurate information they can. That did not happen and is not happening.
When the Corps of Engineers is looking at a waterfall of water coming into the city and saying the levees are “in tact,” it gives people (who are mostly listening by radio right now) a false and dangerous picture of the situation.
Does that get me mad? You betchya.
Update: The moron from the Corps is STILL saying there are no levee breaches on FOXNews as I type. It all depends on what your definition of “breached” is.
Just ask all the know-it-alls in the comments section.
Mike said:
“This is an act of God and the people bringing the case live in an area that Nature never intended to be developed. But you are right, people will sue.”
Lawsuits of this type are very common, and whatever people think they’ve heard about “acts of god,” the “doctrine” probably would not apply. After all, engineers, architects and contractors are hired to counteract “acts of god” every day. It could probably be said that the entire industry arose from the eternal struggle to protect man from the elements. As long as the elements are foreseeable, and the technology exists to stave them off, then shortcomings on the part of designers or builders are actionable.
If the levee construction fell short of the specifications, AND if the deficiency caused or exacerbated the flood damage, then the builders will be held liable. Part of the analysis will be whether the design specs would have held up to the storm if built properly; if not, then the substandard construction cannot be said to have caused the damage.
If the design specifications were not adequate, then the designers can be held liable if it can be proven that the designers failed to meet the standard of practice in the engineering community. That is long-hand for “negligence,” and negligence is not established simply by the failure of a design. Factors will include the forseeabliity of storms of this magnitude, the state of the art of technology, financial constraints, and what their marching orders were. Here, if Congress ordered a Cat 3 system and a Cat 4 storm damaged it, the designers will not be liable. Of course, it is not that simple: Was the design truly capable of withstanding a Cat 3 storm? Were the levees truly subjected to the full force of a Cat 4? What’s the difference between the two? –overtopping? or erosion from the base? Arguably, a good Cat 3 system should have held up Katrina–but maybe not.
Finally, GeoBandy brings up the most important point. Governments are very good at immunizing themselves from liability. I don’t know off-hand whether the statute he cites would apply to this situation, but I’m sure it, or something like it, will be an obstacle to litigation. Of course, like any obstacles, they can usually be overcome somehow. Therefore, if the Corp. was solely responsible for the design and construction, without the help of any subcontractors, it will be difficult, but probably not impossible, to successfully sue them.
>I propose a change in terminology to reflect a more black and white world, rather than the euphemistic world we all seem to live in.
Wolf Blitzer just gave up and started saying, “The levees are not working.” – I’ll say.
There are only tens of thousands of people in jeapordy who are not getting real information from public officials…
And you know this how? Because of what you are seeing on TV. I just linked an article that had quotes from numerous public officials who were aware of what was going on. 2 of those officials were from St. Bernard Parish, do you think they are not telling people to get out?
I’m not trying to argue with you here, but I don’t think those in harm’s way were listening to Foxnews and/or CNN as their only news source.
Paul,
Unless you are an expert in hydraulics, you might not want to pin your hopes on an “hurricane expert” who is in fact a public health expert. That’s the kind of expert quoted in the Washington Post article you linked.
For example, you seem to believe (and it’s not your fault because you are relying on what you read in the Washington Post, so I’ll grant you some leeway here) that because the levees were not “overtopped” that therefore their failure was a design or construction flaw.
You should read up on the effects of water pressure as it relates to earthen dams. You can start here:
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/water/pubs/pdfs/fctsht31.pdf
They needn’t be overtopped to fail. If they are designed for a certain level of water pressure, and that pressure is exceeded, then they can both fail, and also meet their design considerations.
So, don’t fall into the trap set for you by the Washington Post, which, for political reasons, wants to make sure all of this ultimately gets blamed on the federal government, and thus, George W. Bush.
Paul –
To an extent you are arguing apples and oranges. The levee breaches that have been undergoing subsequent computer modeling were the 17th Street and London Avenue Canals. They have not breached or overtopped today. The flooding that you see today is occuring on the Industrial Canal. The article you link to indicates that researchers agreed that the storm surge from Katrina overwhelmed the floodwalls and levees in this area, and was more than they were designed to withstand.
And they are flooding areas that no one but emergency personnel have been in at this point in time, so no one should have been put in danger as a result of today’s flooding. In fact, watching the local news coverage, since I live down here, the responses by both the local media and the local emergency support people have been relatively calm despite the fact that some previously flooded areas are now reflooding. That may well be because this is not a suprise given that all these neighorhoods have long been evacuated.
>And you know this how? Because of what you are seeing on TV.
Um Mike— I left there just over 12 hours ago.
And you?
There are THOUSANDS of people in Jefferson counting on thoese levees. The whole south part of old Metaire can not be pumped out because Orleans parish has told Jefferson Parish they can not pump into the 17th street canal. And Orleans owns the canal so they win. (Do you have any idea what I am talking about?)
I know what is going on becuase I just drove 12 hours to give a set of car keys to a cousin who could not get out due to car trouble…. I’ve spent half the day today on the phone with people still in town who now can not get out.
But please… Tell me more about how much YOU know about the situation.
heh- ts I’m arguing Apple AND Oranges.
One issue is that the Corps is playing symantical games to cover their ass.
The other that cropped up during the discussion is if there will be lawsuits.
Of course there will be- But if the wall broke with only 4 feet of water on it, all hell (legally) will break lose.
The link was to support the Orange, not the Apple. 😉
The levee breaches that have been undergoing subsequent computer modeling were the 17th Street and London Avenue Canals. They have not breached or overtopped today. The flooding that you see today is occuring on the Industrial Canal.
In fact, the Corps did not take many of the same precautions with the Industrial Canal as they did with the other two. They believed that the Industrial Canal levee would not have any issues. Two days ago, one of the bazillion news reports on this storm had an interview with one of the engineers and he stated that.
But if the wall broke with only 4 feet of water on it, all hell (legally) will break lose.
Unless it’s the one with a huge barge now sitting on the wrong side of the levee (you can see it in the TV coverage). Did the barge hit the levee and go through it or was it pulled through after the original breach?
Mesa, the 2 levees are a dozen+ miles apart.
I’m talking about the 17th street canal. The barge was on the industrial canal.
I took some pictures of the entrance to the 17th street canal… suffice it to say, no barge hit it.
It would have had to wind its way under and thru 2 bridges then disappear into space. (because it ain’t there now)
I really need to post those pictures.
Let me get this straight:
Idiots at all levels of government are proving that they are still idiots and people are surprised that they are still idiots??
“Scotty, beam me up!”
“The levees are still intact, is just that portions of it have relocated into the city.”
By the looks of the grass in the pic, this appears to be an existing levee, not one recently repaired. (Although I have seen pics of the failed repais as well.)
Rita’s Rains Breach Two New Orleans Levees:
In the already-devastated Ninth Ward, water streamed through gaps at least 100 feet wide and was soon waist-deep on a nearby street.
Paul,
Gotcha, thanks.
I just meant in that instance it would bring a few more entities into play.
About ten years back a construction crew knocked a piling through the Chicago River into a tunnel and flooded the entire downtown area. The flooding was mostly below street level as Chicago’s Loop is built about twenty feet above ground level to avoid flooding, but the entire downtown area had to be evacuated and Chicago was effectively shut down for a week.
Lawsuits followed immediately. Since the accident happened in the river, Maritime Law applied. The Maritime law held that the contractor had been hired by the city and was not liable — the laws involved are much different from their civil counterparts (no, I’m not a lawyer).
So, I was just saying that if that barge caused any of the breaches it could change the lawsuit situation in an interesting way.
huh- Mesa that is interesting even if not applicable.
Actually I know one of the big dog laywers who is planning to be one of the lead councils. He lost everything* but he is willing to work pro-bono. He’s just pissed.
* I say he lost everything. His home was probably about 1 millon plus his possessions. Flood insrance tops out at like 250,000. And the lot will proably be worth 100,000 when this is over, so he lost (round figures) a million bucks.
Yes, Paul, it depends on what you think the words mean (as well as other things.) One of the best bits of advice I was ever given was “Don’t try to explain what you’ve done to a cop; you don’t speak cop, and he doesn’t listen engineer.”
I would describe the photo as showing “erosion caused by over-topping”, and would not describe it as “breached”. It might well become breached if the erosion continues. Not being a hydro-anything, I’m not sure where their definition of “breached” would be. If more than half of the height was gone, I would consider using the word. That doesn’t seem to be the case here.
There’s probably a more appropriate Chinese word for this – this probably happens all the time there.
Fix the post, Paul. I thought one of the biggest benefits of the blogosphere was adding clarity?
There were no breach of the levee becuase the eco-freaks who care so much for the invisible levee guppy they sued to stop the levee repair and they said the TITANIC WAS UNSINKIBLE
What the first guy said…
Having water come over the top is not the same as having the levee break. The result is the same but it’s not the same cause.
Granted, once the water comes over the top, a dirt levee is going to erode quickly. At that point “breached” seems to descibe the situation quite well.
Having just finished reading this post and all the associated posts I have a couple questions:
1. Where was this picture taken, was it a location that was previously breached?
2. If it is a location that was previously breached is this a new breach (i.e. the repair failing) or was the repair not completed to the level of the permanent levee? There is ome sort of obstruction the water is rushing over.
3. In one of the previous pictures it shows reapirs being conducted that were not built up to the level of the previous levee. What were the time estimates on completing permanent repairs on the levees? I am guessing it was in the months. If so why is this a surprise.
4. Why is anyone much less hundreds of thousands of people in an area that is in so much potential danger before permanent repairs are completed?
5. Given that experts were saying that 3 inches of rain could cause flooding again and that it was practically guaranteed that more than 3 inches of rain was going to fall as well as the associated storm surge from Rita why is anyone surprised that flooding is occuring?
6. Growing up in a very drought ridden area of the country I am aware of the potential for flash floods occuring when parched land is suddenly inudated with moisture. As I recall that water tends to sit on the surace and slowly seep in. In the case on New Orleans the started pumping the water off and there were very high temperatures (if the news reports were correct). Is it possible that these combined in a way to again reduce the permeability of the ground and increasing the severity of the flooding? If that is the case would it follow that maybe the talking head that made the comment about parched ground had a point?
7. I would also like to know if it is possible that the repairs held and new breeches were occuring and that was what the corps of engineers was referring too? I am not watching the news at this time, so I cant see it myself just trying to get some clarification.
At the moment I am taking all the gloom and doom talk with a grain of salt after all the claims of tens of thousands dead and multiple rapes and murders in the convention center and the superdome I just don’t believe anything coming out of New Orleans. While I have sympathy for Paul and his family I also have to say if you are there now after being told multiple times that the area wasn’t safe then you gambled and lost.
Why even get so particular as to talk abouit levees? Just say that it is all over.
Evil engineers trying to use precise language to facilitate communication should be made to hyperventilate like out most trusted oracles, the news reporter.
Logical Reasoning:
Overspilling– H2O flowing over the TOP of a given structure that remains intact. Breached– The structure is no longer in its previous form losing its structural integrity and therefore allowing the H2O to pass through the object.
If these levees are simply “over-topped” why the large hole and apparent eroded channel shown in the photographs?
The flooding of New Orleans that followed hurricane Katrina was not an-act-of-God nor was it the fault of Congress, Presidents Clinton and Bush for not providing more monies to improve the canal levees that pass through the city itself. The loss of hundreds of lives and the living nightmares experienced by thousands of survivors was clearly the result of engineering malpractice on the part of the United States Army Corps of Engineers.
When the elevations of the canal levees were raised in the 1990s one of the contractors that built the new concrete flood walls put in a claim for additional money because an existing flimsy sheet pile and the soft soil caused major delays in pouring and curing the concrete walls. A hearing was held, one witness for the Corps testified that the existing sheet pile could have been tin foil, it made no difference in the pouring and curing of the walls. The contractor’s claim was rejected.
There were over six expert witnesses who testified at the hearing. None questioned the well known fact that a single cantilevered sheet pile embedded in soil is not an acceptable permanent foundation for dams or floodwalls over seven feet high. Further the Corps own manual requires that this type of dam or floodwall be analyzed to make sure that the overturning moment caused by the height of water can be resisted by the sheet pile and the soil in which it is embedded. The overturning moment is a function of the height of water cubed. This means the overturning moment for 10 feet of water is eight times greater than for 5 feet of water. The Corps designed floodwalls 6 to 11 feet high attached to a flimsy existing cantilevered steel sheet pile embedded in the existing earthen levee.
Hurricane Katrina caused the water levels in the canals to rise up into the new flood walls. At some elevation the bending moment on the combined sheet pile caused it to deflect increasing the effective height of the water on the wet side of the levee. As the cantilevered sheet pile started to tip over the sheet pile and soil had to resist the height of water over the entire depth of the combined levee. At one breech the force of the water pushed the concrete and steel sheet pile out 35 feet. The explosion heard by nearby residents was probably caused by the massive tearing apart of the sheet piles and the whipping off of the reinforced concrete flood wall from the steel sheet pile. The failure of the new floodwalls caused the existing earth levee to fail, it would have been better if the new floodwalls had not been built.
A very important question that the President and Congress must answer is why continue the funding of levees on all of the canals within the city of New Orleans? What commercial benefit justifies the lost of human lives and over $200 billion in damages. These canals should have been filled in or damned off years ago. A new modern pumped storm water system can be built to keep New Orleans dry after a rainstorm.
William J. Kelleher, 182 Roweland Avenue, Delmar, NY 12054, 518-439-6281, billdort@aol.com