I’ve been kicking around this piece for a while, but it hasn’t quite gelled before. I think its time has come, though — what better way to observe a Sunday on a holiday (as in “Holy Day”) weekend for a good old-fashioned bashing of religions?
I’ve said several times I am an agnostic — often tacking on “born-again” to both signify that I arrived at that conclusion, not born to it, and to irritate certain types. I was raised Methodist, but that never really “worked” for me.
I came to my agnosticism relatively young in life — I was in my teens. I had nothing against religion per se, it just didn’t “work” for me. There is something deep within me that simply cannot accept the tenets of faith, of believing in something that not only cannot be proven, but by its very nature must not be proven. (See Oolon Coluphid’s seminal work, “Well, that about wraps it up for God.”)
I tend to have a very laissez-faire attitude toward religion — if they don’t try to convert me, I won’t attack their faith. I think of it as a form of mutual respect. I have major issues with the core beliefs of most of the world’s faiths, but as a matter of manners I don’t bring them up. (For example, why does the Bible list the lineage of Jesus from Adam twice, and why do they differ so radically?)
So as a matter of practicality, I don’t judge the religions on their beliefs, but by the behavior of their adherents — especially those with some level of authority.
For example, I don’t get Mormonism. What little I’ve learned of its basic tenets strikes me as, well, profoundly silly and require not only a whole lot of faith, but a complete discarding of common sense and rational thinking.
On the other hand, nearly every single Mormon I’ve ever met has been polite, respectful, decent, honest, and an exemplar of morality and honor. So I find myself completely baffled and befuddled over their faith, but still having a great deal of respect for the individuals who practice it.
Catholicism, though, I have some troubles with. When it was the sole faith that governed most of Europe, it was rife with corruption and tyrannical impulses. Even today, it is a bit too totalitarian for my tastes, and as a New Englander the pedophile priest scandal is still fresh in my memory. (At one point, over 60% of American bishops had either been accused of sexually abusing children or of protecting priests who had done so.) I think that the Catholic church has done many great works throughout its history. But it, like most monolithic institutions, has also committed many wrongs as well. As a result, I tend to find individual Catholics, for the most part, decent folks, but I have a deep, ingrained suspicion of the Church as an institution.
I have a special fondness and respect for Judaism. For one, they are the least annoying of faiths. “Jewish Evangelical” is a wonderful oxymoron. They not only don’t actively seek converts, but they make it quite difficult to convert on your own. Theologically speaking, they just want to be left to their own devices. They aren’t interested in changing the world, or compelling others to abide by their beliefs. (In fact, they have a tradition of embracing non-Jews who do not follow Jewish law and custom.) Yeah, I could never convert to Judaism (Not even God could convince me to give up pepperoni pizza), but it seems to be the religion I could best get along with.
Other Christian denominations, I must confess, tend to blur together for me. Again, I see them as mostly positive, doing good works and living decent lives, so I consider them a “plus” in our society. As long as they respect my right to not believe and not belong, I cheerfully accord them the same.
Some of the Eastern religions leave me puzzled. (Much like most Westerners.) I have almost no grasp of how Hinduism works, and Buddhism usually gives me a headache. But again, I judge them by their results. Hindus probably don’t appreciate my fondness for steak and hamburger, but apart from that they really don’t seem to be that troublesome.
Buddhists, on the other hand, tend to be troublemakers. Troublemakers of the best sort. They have their own moral and ethical standards, and refuse to compromise over them. But their idea of refusal is in the finest form — they refuse to use any sort of force, just overwhelming moral compunction. The Buddhist monks who set themselves on fire to protest the Viet Nam war showed just how deeply they believed in their cause, yet would not violate their beliefs even for the greater cause. They seem to have assumed the burden of the world’s conscience, and while we might not always agree with them, they definitely ought to at least be listened to.
And then there’s the elephant in the room, the one I’ve been tap-dancing around all this piece. Islam.
Individual Muslims, by my own experience and those others have related to me, can be among the most decent and peaceful and considerate people on earth. But there is very often a cauldron of fury bubbling beneath that surface.
The tenets of Islam (which, despite what many say, does not mean “peace,” but “submission”) are simple and universal: the world is divided into two houses, Dar El Islam (“House Of Islam”) and Dar El Harb (“House Of War”). It is the duty of all Muslims to expand the former to embrace all of the latter. There will not be true peace on earth until Islam rules all. Other faiths may continue, but only if they acknowledge Islam’s supremacy and abide by its restrictions. (See “dhimmi.”) It also inculcates intolerance and hatred for other faiths, especially the Jews — see Sahih Muslim, Book 40, Number 6985: “The Hour [of Resurrection] will not arrive until you fight the Jews and the rock and the tree will say: O Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!”
But to judge a religion based on the tenets of its faith is against what I spelled out before. I should rather judge it based on the conduct of its adherents. And on that scale, how does Islam measure up?
For one, it seems extremely aggressive and violent. Perusing a list of major conflicts going on in the world today, it seems that nearly every single one of them has an Islamic faction on one side (some times both). “Muslim” and “terrorist” are terms that are almost inextricably linked, and the first thoughts many have when hearing about a terrorist attack is that it was an Islamic extremist — and they are almost always right. (Cue the “Timothy McVeigh/Unabomber/Aum Shinrikyo/Eric Rudolph” exceptions.) The ones who commit these atrocities are not singing the praises of Jesus or Moses or Buddha or Krishna or Reverend Moon or L. Ron Hubbard or even Satan, they’re shouting “Allahu Ackbar!” as they set off bombs, saw off heads, stone people, hang people, or commit other atrocities.
I do not come by my distrust of Islam readily. I don’t like the feeling of fear and suspicion and resentment I get whenever I encounter Muslims. But it won that the old-fashioned way — it earned it.
No, not all Muslims are terrorists. I’d be surprised if the terrorists were even a significant minority. But it is the failure of mainstream Muslims to forcibly reject the terrorists in their midst, to denounce them, to cooperate with others in rooting them out, that makes me so concerned.
For example, we are often told that the Palestinian people only want peace, and are tired of the long conflict with Israel. That flies in the face of certain established facts:
1) They set up a children’s summer camp, with the assistance of the United Nations through UNICEF, named in honor of Wafa Idris, a female suicide bomber.
2) After a suicide bomber killed 15 people in a Sbarro restaurant in Jerusalem, Palestinian college students set up a re-creation of the massacre at Al-Najah University, complete with fake blood and body parts.
3) The Palestinian people frequently dress their children — even infants — in tiny suicide bomber suits, complete with fake explosives (at least, I hope they’re fake) for public demonstrations.
If the Muslim people really want to convince people like me that Islam is a religion of peace, they need to start by turning on those who they claim have “perverted” their faith and working on bringing them to justice. That means that they need to stand against those who claim to be fellow Muslims and work with the “unbelievers” — and so far we’ve seen precious little evidence that they’re willing to do so.
President Bush has been roundly criticized for his “you’re either with us or you’re with the terrorists,” but a variant of that holds true for the rank and file Muslims of the world — you’re either against the terrorists, or you’re not. The time is long past for them to declare where they stand, and to put action to those words.
USMC,
First, thank you for your service to our country (from one who works w/intel).
Putting aside the “my type” comment, I find it interesting that you unknowingly cite Mathew 7:1 (All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.) and the Talmud Shabbat 3id (What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellowman. This is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary.) as the philosophy you live by. As a Christian, I don’t mind you borrowing from my faith…it’s a great way to live.
You said:
“I cannot prove that God does not exist, just as you can not prove that God does exist.”
USMC, I can prove the existence of God, the Judeo/Christian God of the Bible.
I would be willing to have that debate, although I think that for the sake of the others on this thread (so as not to hijack the thread) it should be via email. You can let me know.
Pro:
bdgoetz@bellsouth.net
Take your best shot.
P.S. – If you take some sort of holier than thou attitude I will not respond. Also “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” has always been enough for me.
USMC
Thanks.
I’ll be there in a few…have to finish dinner w/family first. Just in case.
prohoridzo@gmail.com
Pro has done a pretty thorough job extrapolating Jay Tea’s beliefs and positions, but I think I might be better qualified to do so. After all, I’ve known the guy for almost 39 years.
I started out by citing other religions besides Islam for a couple of reasons. First was to get a few things off my chest. Second was to spell out my (very slender) theological background and to express my general ignorance and willful separation from any specific religious tenets or denominations. I worked mainly from the “Christian” perspective because, like the vast majority of Americans, that is the general faith in which I was brought up.
leelu seems to have nailed it perfectly. My whole point was no to judge a faith based on its tenets, but on the actual leaders. “By their deeds shall ye know them” is how I think the phrase goes. I could have cited the example of Mormons sending out teenagers with name tags calling them “Elders” (always good for a giggle) or the annoying Jehovah’s Witnesses who come right up to your door and try to evangelize you, but again in both cases the people (apart from those annoying pratices) tend to be decent, honest folk.
It’s the Muslims that seem to have the highest percentage of raving, hateful, dangerous psychotics in high positions of authority, and who tend to act out the most frequently.
One last thing: I said up front that I have a very laissez-faire relationship with religion: it leaves me alone, I’ll leave it alone. My dear friend Candy, an extremely devout evangelican Christian, knows better than to “work” on me except in the most delicate ways, because she knows it’ll just piss me off no end. That still didn’t keep a few folks from trying to “show me the truth” above.
Foks, I’ve seen most of those truths. I’m glad they work for you, but it doesn’t for me. Don’t push me and I won’t push back. Deal?
J.
Jay:
I believe that the religions that send their young people out to convert the heathen masses, don’t do so to save the masses but to convince their young people. There’s nothing like trying to convince someone else for convincing yourself.
“The difference in the two is the culture. One is a self reliant culture and the other is an entitlement culture.
Perhaps you should take a closer look at who is at fault here instead of unleasing your anger on God.”
So here it comes, I knew it was just a matter of time. So let me guess, the black ones in La. rely on others, while the white people in Ms. do for self, right Pro.? I mean let’s just forget that the people who were hit in Ms. had more wealth to begin with. Careful now Pro., you are not being very christ like, you are prejudging an entire race of people. Would jesus do that? I think you need to pray a little more for an open mind there Pro. what happended to all those teachings you were giving in the above posts, don’t you think you should practice what you preach? It’s still Sunday, if I were you, I would make a b line back to church.
Anyway, it’s nice to know that ignorance is a universal trait, whether you are christian, muslim,gnostic or whatever.
Sorry Mitchell, I have to stay angry, I can’t lose sight of who I am in this country. My anger motivates and drives me. Besides, there is just so much to be angry about 😉
Sheesh, Jay that was the first thing I noticed when I started reading the comments. It seems I walked right into an evangelical’s convention. I grew up Catholic but am currently non-practicing. I know much about Catholicism and for those that generically espouse Protestant (read: Fundamentalist Christian) views as wholly Christian, need to read up a bit more. The Bible is not infallible. It was written by men. Heck, it even contradicts itself a few times. Some stories aren’t even written by a single author, but collaborations of a few that were jumbled together. I read an interesting book in my mother’s library titled “Who wrote the Bible?”, and a good portion of the book covered the Noah’s Ark story, demonstrating the differeing styles of text used in piecing together that story (Example, one author who generically describes the ark, and the other describes the measurements in detail).
And as someone mentioned, evangelicals just push people like me farther away. When someone who effectively walks up to you and pushily says “have you found Jay-zus yet?”, then starts quoting the scripture to back themselves up, citing chapter verse (often taking those quotes out of context, too), it just turns me off.
Everyone has already heard your message, stop it and just have an honest discussion about the content of his post.
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Jay, it is posts such as this are why you are a treasure to all the readers here @ Wizbang. In fact, you’re one of the reasons that I came back to Wizbang when I first visited this blog (Kevin posted more news-like articles and Paul was inflammatory, while your posts seemed more personable). One could read entirely through and wholeheartedly agree (or at least see the point your making and find little to disagree with).
Keep it up, I’m rootin for you
Good enough Jay. Thanks for the kudo on my part…understand that as a Christian I am called to defend the faith. What you believe is between you and whatever you wish (even if its a cucumber). I wish you the best and look forward to reading post from you on occasion. But hey, if you ever want to discuss. You have my email. Good luck.
What race?? The Louisianna pilgrims or what?
Uh, FN, when did all the huricane victims in MS become white and NOLA black?
You’re reading into things again.
HOwever, aside from the culture differences in the more rural MS (having lived in both rural and metropolitan areas, it’s my exp that country mice are much better at pulling themselves up by their boot straps than city mice), there is the issue of infrastructure. NOLA lost much more of theirs, and that has a huge impact on recovery.
F-N,
That is a racist remark. I bet you use that a lot to win arguments but it won’t work with me. I’ve got some experience with that. If you had an inkling of knowledge about the MS coast line you would know that is is just as African American as NOLA. It has nothing to do w/race but with culture. Culture…look it up. Wikipedia. Once you get that huge chip off your shoulder, perhaps you can start to understand what it takes to make a difference.
The only ignorance here is your inability to see the facts as they are. But of course you’re probably all talk and no action. Big hat no cattle. Why don’t you try spewing that racism w/someone who cares. Better yet…volunteer for an Al Sharpton rally. You will be in good company.
No pro. you brought race into the mix, although I think is was rather subconscious on your part. And for your information, I know quite a bit about Louisiana and Ms. The Ms. coast line is not as Af.Am in terms of who were effected by this storm and you know it. So don’t try to back out of your conclusions now by making silly points.
Also, you are really showing your ignorance; not all black folks like Al. Sharpton, I happen to think he is a charlatan and a fraud. Kind of like many other pastors I happen to know. (Whoops, sorry about that, maybe a little too close to home for you) But you get the point.
“Big hat no cattle”
Ahhh, yeah, you are right about the cattle part. I don’t have any. -You must be from Texas- But I do wear a pretty big hat 😉
Prohoridzo,
When I say all people I mean humankind or the older “mankind.” Jesus came in the form of a man to pay the price for the sins of mankind as in all mankind. My next sentience after the one you quoted makes it clear that salvation requires accepting what Jesus did.
You seem to be missing a simple point. While God gives salvation freely, it must be received. A person does that by believing with their heart and confessing with their mouth. Yes, the Holy Spirit must lead a person to that point, yet they have the choice of receiving salvation or not. Refusing the Holy Spirit’s invitation is dangerous because a person may not get another invitation, and you are right, a person cannot accept salvation apart from the Holy Spirit.
The work of Salvation has already been done. A person simply needs to accept the invitation of the Holy Spirit and receive it. The hard part for many is defeating their pride and humbling themselves.
Everyone is dead in their sins before they are saved. The Holy Spirit must turn on the light, but it’s up to every person to open their eyes while the light is on.
Well thanks. I don’t believe in absolute predestination, but rather that God knows beforehand who will accept salvation and who will not, yet it’s a choice people must make. You may assume my belief is ignorant, but to do so would suggest pride on your part.
I want to clear one thing up. The reason that evangelicals “push” themselves on people is that they think they realize the outcome of an “unprofessing” person. That outcome is of course hell (or separation from God). They do it out of love and concern for the individual as well as other things such as self importance and dedication to a cause. While I don’t consider myself an evangelical, I do defend the faith as called. This is sometimes taken as smugness, arrogance and ignorance.
While the intention is good, the result is sometimes not. While I don’t consider myself an mainstream evangelical, I do defend the faith as called.
Everyone should take a big deep breath and remember that we are all human beings whether Saved or not. We are all where God wants us to be whether Christian or not. Not all are called.
MacLorry
I can see that you are an Arminian (dispensationalist). That theory, while now rampant in the Anerican Church was dispensed with at the Council of Dort in the 16th century. It crept back in 1840 under Darby. The maintenance of your proposal is scripturally impossible. Brother, I exhort you to research in the original text, not a translation. If the bible is the infallible word of God, so it shall be. I don’t want to take your response and pick it apart here. It serves no purpose but to cause a rift in front of non-believers. Just study!
F-N
Where did I mention race in my post? You’re trolling for the negative so that you can act hurt and enraged. That is a straw dog that you threw up to dismiss the evident. It won’t work here. If you are not a Sharptonite, you certainly portray youself in your responses as one. Once again, if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.
I find it interesting that you admit that most of the AF-Am ministers you know are like Sharpton yet you don’t fault the people in Philly for following those corrupt ministers. Perhaps you should be mad at them instead of God.
pro:
why should I think other wise (guy/gal)? And, so what? On the interweb, no one knows who you are unless you tell us. I can see cranky & bitter, but not boy/girl.
Look to results to judge actions. And, sure there’s a bias. Most of us think that random killing is *bad*. Most of us think that helping someone in need is *good*. Thise may be ‘biases’ to you, but they are core beliefs that give lives direction and value for many people.
Yeah, value judgements. But, look beyond my value, and ask yourself which choices make the world a better place? Kidnapping and conversion at gunpoint to a ‘religion’ that supports mass murder?
Or is it all opinion to you, pro, so it doesn’t *really* matter what we say? What do you believe about, oh, say the value of mass murder? Good, bad, or just the same as building an orphanage?
“Sharptonite”
What a great label.. Thx for the laugh.
leelu,
Yeah..rock and roll, baby. Sorry, your post had me going there for a minute.
Back to reality.
So in your mind results matter. The Nazi’s had core beliefs. The German country as a whole approved of those core beliefs. They got results. What makes your core beliefs better than theirs. The Chinese on habit abort girl babies who are worthless to the continuance of the male line. The country as a whole follows this practice. They think that this gets them good results. Pol Pot killed 3 million of his own countrymen in order to convert the rest to marxism. The majority of Cambodia followed his lead. It was a value judgement. Why is you judgement better?
The answer is obvious. I’m only pointing out that you should at least delve a little deeper into your belief system instead of dismissing the origin out of resistence to the Maker. Whether you become a believer is between you and God.
Prohoridzo,
The Council of Dort was limited to the Dutch Reformed Church, and it’s decision was as much political as based in scripture. I’m familiar with the five points of difference and believe the Arminians have it right. I think you’ll agree that you and I are certainly not going to resolve that issue.
You say that “I can prove the existence of God, the Judeo/Christian God of the Bible.” Well that’s something I have to see, so please include me. Here’s my address: maclorry27@yahoo.com
MacLorry,
Thanks for your response. I once considered the dispensational movement. Not to belabor the point but once I was drawn to the actual original text (Textus Receptus) in context with the traditions and customs in the first century Greek, I was convicted that the arminians were wrong and in fact there was more to the five points than is usually portrayed. If you are amenable, I would like to also have a dialogue with you concerning dispensationalism via email. If USMC approves, I will include you on our emails.
prohoridzo,
I’m primarily interested in your proof of God’s existence. You don’t need to copy me on what you send USMC, just send me your proof apart from what you send USMC. That way you don’t need his permission.
Thanks
Maclorry
I would still like to have a dialogue concerning dispensationalism. I have concerns about your understanding of the Council of Dort. Those cannons were added to the DRC and not as the result of their efforts. As I have said before, I don’t wish to get into a theological argument here. But I also don’t want to pursue a conversation on the subject via email if you are not amenable to it.
prohoridzo,
I had assumed your proof of God’s existence did not rely on Calvinist doctrine. As far a arguing the merits of Calvinism vs. Arminianism, it would be like arguing Catholicism vs. Protestantism. It’s unlikely we would agree, so what good could come of it?
Pro. maybe the poor people of Philly are in the dark. Why don’t you come and help them or send someone? You seem to be very well schooled in theological dogma, and homeletics. Why would you have your fellow christian brothers and sisters following the teachings of…what did you call it? “Sharptonites”
BTW, I am not mad at god. It’s hard to be mad at something or one, that you don’t believe exists. I am mad at the system that let’s these poor souls think that religion is their only hope out of a miserable life here on earth. That’s what pisses me off. And people like you who go around promising a better way in the after life when you should be helping people here and now. Not to mention, going to some poor third world country and teaching them about your god, so that you can tithe them for every last penny they have, when they can’t even afford to put food on their tables. That pisses me off too. Oh, and your friends in their mega churches with their million dollar broadcasting studios, begging poor grandmothers for their last social security check, so that they can get a new organ. Yeah I get pretty pissed at that one.
And that’s not only the “Sharptonites”. That’s the Falwellites,the Dobsonites,the Swaggertites, and…well, you get the picture.
So no, I am not part of the problem; you are. And it’s people like me who has to try to clean up the mess your problem creates every day. So while you pray, I do, and while you build that mega church, I try to help people build homes. I think that’s what jesus would do right?
Ok, FN, I’ll be Un-PC and say it, yeah, the black authorities and culture have been a problem in N.O. Is that not reality?
What the Hell are you thinking? You say the Sharpton types are frauds, and then ignore the damage they’ve caused?
We’ve had 40 years of bad leadership in the Black culture, what do you think is going to happen? Sheesh. I’m not afraid to say it.
I drive my Nicaraguan wife through the poor/black part of town in Durham, and she sees all the young black men hanging around at Noon, with no purpose. She says, these people don’t know what they have. She didn’t grow up rich; hell, Nicaragua is the 2nd poorest country in the hemishpere.
For Christ sake, what are you thinking? Face the problem and be a problem-solver, and quit bitchin. Nothing got fixed with belly aching.
My Nicaraguan brother in law moved up here and got a job within 3 days. What the Fuck???
Mitchell, I don’t want to be rude, but who gives a f#@k about your Nicaraguan wife or brother in law? I am from Jamaica, and I know many people who came here and got jobs too. And I know of Puerto Rican stick up kids who were born and raised here and can’t speak a lick of English. So what’s your point?
Yes those lazy black men in Durham need to get up and get jobs, and the lazy ones in Philly, and Detroit, and New York too. Again, we have been there done that; acknowledged! Lazy people need to work. Poor black people need to pull themselves up by their boots straps blah blah blah. Those lazy five year olds need to get out of those housing projects and beg for quarters at stop lights… give me f#@%&%g a break!
Listen, I will tell you what I told the christian lady. I am working to make the problem better, and I faced the problem a long time ago. So I am not sure what you are getting at. If it’s that having a Nicaraguan family helps you to see the problem better, I will take your word for it.
Good for you.
But you sound frustrated, and I am not sure what race you are, nor do I care. But if you happen to be black, may I suggest you do some soul searching and get back to me. Nothing is worse than a black man who can’t find his way in America. It makes for a lot of confusion, and a crisis of self identity 🙂
BTW, Sharpton was never one of my leaders, and neither was anyone else that white America propped up as a mouthpiece for me. My leaders are my two parents, and the other positive role models I grew up around. Which by the way, is what I try to do to other young black men I happen to come across. It’s called giving back.
F-N
My last response to you is that you go get professional help before you self destruct. Your self-hatred is seething out of evey post you have made. Get help now before you harm others.
MacLorry
Let those who have ears hear. Your right. No need to argue with you. Have a good life.
And this is my last post to you church lady. I think you have it a little twisted on the self hatred thing. I happen to love myself very much.
Which is why I don’t need religion or anything else to make me whole.
And I suspect you will do way more harm to others than I ever will 😉
Peace!
Religion: A man-made, two-edged sword
prohoridzo,
So does that mean you won’t share your proof of God’s existence with me?
Porkopolis,
The conservation of energy law states that the total amount of energy in an isolated system (such as the universe) remains constant. In other words, energy can be converted from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. In modern physics, all forms of energy exhibit mass and all mass is a form of energy.
That means that all the mass and energy in the universe has always existed and will always exist. Yet science demonstrates that the universe had a beginning, and thus, there was a time when the laws of nature were suspended. With the suspension of the laws of nature being a scientific fact, by what logic should we assume that cause always proceeded effect? Thus the implication of your question, which is that the creator must have been created is without merit.
pro:
RTFP… *judge* the results. And, answer the question.. is murdering 3000 people in the WTC morally equivalent to, say, building an orphangage?
“Why is you judgement better?
The answer is obvious. I’m only pointing out that you should at least delve a little deeper into your belief system instead of dismissing the origin out of resistence to the Maker. Whether you become a believer is between you and God.”
My judgement is based on the result. Germans – 6 million dead. Stalin – 20 million dead. This is generally considered bad. Do you disagree? Please answer specific questions and quit tap dancing. You’re running and hiding from the questions and issues.
And for us unenlightened, what is “the answer” of which you speak? As you said about yourself earlier, you *don’t* know of my background, experience, or personal path. I’m just a guy (really) who’s commenting on Jay’s post. Don’t presume to lecture me. Instead, engage me as a potential equal, and begin a dialog out of respect, if you aren’t afraid of that. You arrogance is off-putting, and not conducive to conversation, convincing or conversion. I appreciate that you feel the need to defend you faith, but for Christ’s sake, don’t be an asshole about it.
Jay, have to correct you about something: “Buddhist Monks setting themselves on fire to protest the Vietnam War”. You’ve probably seen the famous photo of a Vietnamese monk immolating themselves while calmly sitting in the Lotus position, an extraordinary act of self discipline by any measure. But the monks did not do this, despite it’s propaganda use by anti-war groups, in protest of the war itself. What the monks were protesting was more self interested, anti-Buddhist measures taken by the South Vietnamese government, such as not allowing them to carry flags on the Buddha’s birthday!
But your point still stands; the Buddhists destroyed themselves in a dramatic demonstration of spiritual power and did not resort to acts of terrorism, as Muslims habitually do.
But Buddhists talk a great deal about compassion for others without doing much about it. There are few, if any, Buddhist relief organizations, hospitals, schools. There are no Buddhist equivalents to Dr. Martin Luther King, or Gandhi.
WOW – I showed up really late for this party, didn’t I? LOL…. This is “Jay Tea’s Dear Friend Candy”. I’ve known Jay for over ten years. He comes to my house for visits, spends many holidays with us, and we speak online or on the phone constantly.
USMC Pilot – I can honestly tell you that I WOULD prefer to see Jay saved for Christ than to worry about whether or not my fanny is going to get blown up by some terrorist psychos. I know where I’m going – I am NOT trying to be “holier than thou” because that stuff drives me insane. I’m just speaking the truth.
Wow! This was a very exhaustive read. I only kept on because some of the things some people said really struck a cord with me. So, I’ll try to not be redundant.
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JT: Your post was very interesting to me. I like your attempt to be objective by including pros and cons to all religions. I do think you’re being a bit unfair when judging the Islamic culture though. I don’t know very much about very many religions, but I do know that the Muslims that I’ve personally known have been some of the nicest people I’ve met. It’s very stereotypical to say that Middle Easterners are walking time bombs waiting to explode at any mention of the wrong topic. I do know some people like that, but the ones I can think of weren’t even Muslim. Personality traits are individual, not cultural, not religious. I’ve even met self-proclaimed witches who were as sweet as can be, off beat, but sweet. 🙂
In any even, it seems almost as if you’re looking for a well-fitted religion, as if you want something to believe in. That’s my interpretation, but if that is the case, I would highly recommend looking again into Christianity. There are many different sects you can opt to go with that best suit your preferences. My family for example was very selective in finding the best fitting form of Christianity. Why not do the same?
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F-N: I understand that you keep seeing all this hate and destructions and corruption in the world and it, as you say, angers you that people are being told to believe in God and that will solve their problems. Let me offer a perspective. First and foremost I am a Christian. I’m not here to bash anyone of their religions or lack there of. However, I don’t think people are saying “Believe in God and it’ll all be better.” If they are, they shouldn’t – that is very misleading. If anyone actually takes the time to read the Bible, it clearly states repeatedly that being a Christian does not make your life any easier, in fact it will more than likely make it more difficult. Believing in a greater being brings comfort for many. So just because it may not make a physical difference that you see, it may help bring peace amongst the chaos. That is a good thing. And if more people were to convert to Christianity, things would change drastically. The Bible calls for “doing the right thing”. So, in theory, if these people were PRACTICING Christians then you would see a difference. Crime would decrease b/c that is wrong by definition in the Bible (and law). It’s important to note that just because people go to church regularly does not mean that they are practicing Christians. I know many people who go to church and all 6 other days of the week act like complete fools and only make a bad name for Christians. Believing is only 1/2 the battle. Remember, even Satan BELIEVES in God. You have to act like a Christian – follow the Bible. So in short, the fact that you say there is tons of crime in areas full of people who go to church only proves that not all Christians PRACTICE their faith but just claim it. And it’s hardly fair to say it’s God’s fault there’s all this chaos when it’s people who are not doing right. God gives us freewill. If we want to be idiots or kill people or grafiti or whatever, that’s 100% on us, not who/what we believe in.
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Mac Lorry: You want proof there is a God? I can help you out a bit. I can’t give you a convenient web link, but I can recommend a book. It’s called A Case For A Creator by Lee Strobel. It’s actually quite interesting. The author is an investigative reporter who set out to prove that there is no God, and to do this scientifically. He interviewed many people, mostly scientists, from both sides of the argument (whether or not there is a God) and tried (very well) to present his information objectively. However, in the course of his mission, he ended up actually converting to Christianity due to the overwhelming scientific evidence that proves there is a God. All is presented very eloquently in his book. He also has a few others, A Case for Faith, A Case for Christ, A Case for Easter… there may be more. You might be interested in this. Hope you read it.
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Prohoridzo: You have some very strong convictions and obviously enjoy sharing them with the world. More power to you. That’s all fine and dandy, but you have to be careful not to be a punk. No one will really listen to you if you sound like your belittling others. I’m a very strong believing Christian and you’re making me want to go hide. To be perfectly honest, while you do bring up many good points, your method of teaching is almost embarrassing. I say this only because you are being too aggressive and condescending. Nothing wrong with being evangelical, I am myself. But you don’t do it to a point of scaring people off. And you don’t do it in a condenscending manner, nor should you pass judgement. That may sound hypocritical of me b/c it sounds like I’m judging you. I’m really trying not to. But you call people ignorant and constantly talk down to people. You should know, since you seem so well versed in the Bible, that it says it is not for us to pass judgement, that is God’s job. Equally, our job is to spread the Truth, the Good News, however you want to call it. You’re right, we are called to witness for the Lord. But we are not to bash people over the head with it. If you really want to get someone to listen, try making a connection with them first and work in how God can improve things for them. Just an idea… perhaps easier said than done, but worth a try. I think it’d make more of a difference.
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Who was it up there that said God is fickle and perhaps has a personality disorder? I mean this in the nicest way possible – that is the dumbest thing I’ve heard. God punishes those who need to be punished. God forgives those who genuinely ask for forgiveness. He’s not fickle or subject to human whims. He’s wiser than we could ever grasp. Unlike many parents, the Holy Father is actually able to let us suffer in order to learn a lesson. How many parents bail their kids out because of love? Those kids don’t learn anything like that. They learn that they can do what they want and then Mommy and Daddy will come fix it all for them. God doesn’t do that. He’ll actually make us pay the consequences – out of love. He may smite sinners who refuse to repent. I suppose it’s equivalent to a parent kicking a renegade kid out of the house.
I don’t remember who said it (and I’m sure not re-reading all this to find out), but some one made some reference to Protestants being way off base and not keeping in line with the Divine truth. Being a Protestant, I find that extremely offensive. For those who don’t know, Christianity is branched into 2 main categories: Chatholic and Protestant. From there Protestant branches into several more categories (ie: Mormon, Baptist, Evangelical Covenant, Presbyterian, etc.) All the branches differ, some slightly, some drastically. Personally, my family did our best to affiliate with the one that we felt followed the Bible most closely. My church preaches “when in doubt, follow the Bible”. So I think it is highly unfair to clump all Protestants together and call them off base. All forms of Christianity have different practices but it’s all in the name of the Lord and Jesus Christ. Why some practices are in place in some religions and not others eludes me, and that’s fine. That’s the beauty of faith, you don’t need to know the why’s. You just need to believe that you’re doing the right thing.
With that said, lets address the Bible and it’s many so called “contradictions and discrepencies”. Like the whole alcohol thing that was addressed ages ago. The Bible does mention Jesus making wine for a gathering. But if you read the whole Bible, it also says don’t drink to a state of drunkeness. So I think it’s safe to say it’s ok to drink, but not to the point of being a drunken idiot. A lot of times, discrepencies are just a matter of who’s telling the story. There’s the phrase “there are 2 sides to every story”. That’s true here. One even can transpire, all those involved and all those observing will all have different versions of the same story based on perspective and interpretation and memory (which is known to be flawed). That doesn’t make any one story wrong, just different parts are emphasized or left out. The fact the stories differ merely means that these people are telling these stories without outside influence and are saying it how they remember it. Besides that, there is historical evidence that a lot of major parts (even the seemingly bizarre stories) are true. They’ve even pretty much proved that there was a crossing of the Red Sea, although from location and such, it wasn’t really the Red Sea. They’ve been using the wrong name, long since established. Enough on the validity of the Bible now.
One more thing that I wanted to comment on: the historical violence of the Catholic church. I agree that a lot of laws were made to profit the church and a lot of things were done to prevent people from figuring it out. But that’s old news. Choosing which books to keep in the Bible has been done – it doesn’t make them any less true. (By the way, whoever said it, Catholic and Protestant Bibles are the same. I do believe that Mormon and/or 7th Day Adventist have an extra book or 2, but everything else is the same, even down to the order in which the books appear.) You can’t blame current Christians for crimes in the ancient days of yore. It’d be like still being mad at white people for enslaving blacks. You’ll never get over the past and make things better unless you forgive those who did the wrong and move on. We don’t really have a choice in that matter anyway. It’s either forgive and forget, or dwell on the past and be bitter. Which is the more productive option?
~I tried my best to cut this down, sorry guys.~
Nice post wallaboo. Damn, I might join the church of wallaboo now 🙂
PSYCHE! But seriously, nice post, I don’t agree with you on a lot of things, but you came at me with some strong arguments.
Peace!
Ok, Blood for Odin has run it’s course. The new and improved mantra of the Wizbangers shall be “Wallaboo U”. LOL – anyhow, thanks, Wallaboo, for your post.
One aside: I was brought up Catholic and I’m now Baptist. I would disagree about Catholic and Protestant bibles being the same. Catholic teachings lean heavily on saints, and one of the other major differences for me was that Catholics teach of Purgatory, from where one can be prayed to heaven. That’s why my mother has so many masses said for all of our dead relatives. Protestants teach heaven or hell – Heaven for those who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. And sadly, hell for all others (hell being eternal separation from God). I may not have done a stellar job of explaining this (I’m dog tired) but I do know that although I knew Jesus had died for my sins, I never understood until the age of 28 that having a personal relationship with Him would change my entire life.