Here is more must watch video from Liz Cheney who presents the best defense of the Bush administration national security record than just about anyone. What is really funny here is Rachel Wener’s Huffington Post comment in the link to the video: “The Cheney family argument that torture did save lives has been undermined by recently released memos.”
It is funny because in the video Joe Scarborough exposes the dishonesty of the Obama administration for releasing memos from those who say “enhanced interrogation techniques” don’t work, but they keep classified and refuse to release other memos from the CIA and others proving that they did, in fact, work and saved lived.
As far as the topic is concerned, there is a lot to be determined on what kind of coercion is warranted in an act of war, and I can imagine that this will be an ongoing discussion until there’s a shifting of the tide. That shifting will probably be more of a focus on Pakistan, and what Obama’s next move is. He won’t address anything directly during this term because his administration still has plans.
Well, luckily for me, they have invented a spelling checker. until they invent a thinking checker, you’re screwed 🙂 Keep on belevin’ in that Amero, you crazy conspiracy nut you.
“translation: “I can’t show anything you said that was illogical, so I’ll just repeat my claim.””
Translation: I still can’t point out jmc’s logical fallacy, so I’ll repeat my accusation. maybe if I chant it three times it will be so.”
If an 8 year old gets pregnant, mightn’t you wonder perhaps that her parents are a part of the problem? Maybe that should be investigated before you turn her back over to them. That’s what the issue is.
The spell checker isn’t going to save your inability to reason, jmc. And you better hang onto that Ivy League girlfriend/fiance, because it’s her actual gray matter that will help you through life when all that “truther” stuff pulls the rug right out from under you.
“Translation: I still can’t point out jmc’s logical fallacy, so I’ll repeat my accusation. maybe if I chant it three times it will be so.”
Now you’re just talking like your high.
Hey, really clever, take my joke an use it yourself. So creative.
I will. I’d wish you the same but we both know no one smart will hang out with you. 🙂
Liz Cheney was great in this interview. She had excellent candor and is an enjoyable speaker.
I especially enjoyed the segment with with Washington Post columnist, who in the face of facts, just randomly started blinking and stumbling, and retreating back to talking points he had about five minutes before.
This is what occurs when fact meets fiction. Unfortunately, some liberals are huge fans of fiction.
“If an 8 year old gets pregnant, mightn’t you wonder perhaps that her parents are a part of the problem?”
Adrian,
Ideally, this kind of thing would never happen. The parents are to blame, sure, but it goes a lot deeper than that. Child abuse and incest are a lot more common than people know, and is media encouraged whether we want to believe it or not.
Read about fallacies LaMed. You might really catch me if you do.
“I will. I’d wish you the same but we both know no one smart will hang out with you. :)”
Whatever your ego wants to believe, jmc. In the end, you’ll find that the really smart ones are going to sell you down the river, so enjoy the elite facade as long as you can.
If you really knew the people I “hang out with”, not even your feigned logic would get you there. Some day, you might see the value of human soul over your self serving deceit, but it looks doubtful.
“You might really catch me if you do.”
Sorry, it’s not that important to me.
my logic is true, which you would know, if you bothered to read what logic is.. You seem one of those people, who really puts no value on knowledge though. I think that is sad, as people who don’t bother to learn, what is a logically valid argument and what isn’t, are easily duped.
jmc, knowledge by itself is useless unless you consider all evidence, and whether or not the facts are true. If you really believe I’m that ignorant, go ahead and believe it. I don’t care that much what an arrogant man thinks of me, just because he lives “the good life”. There are plenty of wealthy people in the world that haven’t even inherent intelligence, and yet they trample on the masses as if they are cattle. This is how they believe it should be, because it’s their “birthright” to better than the common man. They also believe it to be a “logical” choice, because they were taught that. Fallacies exist everywhere in real life, I don’t have to “read about them”. If you think I don’t use knowledge and haven’t learned anything from life’s experience, then just go ahead an believe that if it makes you feel better.
I may not agree with everything that Liz Cheney says, but I can see that she is intelligent, and has the potential to make this world a better place with more understanding. How she uses her knowledge remains to be seen.
jmc – “I got to hand to your [sic] marc, you are never afraid to persist in your own stupidity.”
I “persist” in stupidity and called a “moron” just after you give us all a lecture about not making ad hominem attacks.
Folks, meet jmc Professor of Codswallop
JMC
“Well, no not really, because no liberal wants an 8 year old to have an abortion without parental consent. It is a strawman to say the least. If Rm thinks liberals are bad because they beleive a teenager should be able to do that, that it least is an accurate argument for some.
“
All that matters to liberals is that if a female is pregnant and walks into an abortion clinic for the purpose of getting an abortion is that THEY GET THE ABORTION COME HELL OR HIGH WATER.
I would prefer no abortions take place. 2 wrongs dont make a right.
Adriane Brown
“If an 8 year old gets pregnant, mightn’t you wonder perhaps that her parents are a part of the problem? Maybe that should be investigated before you turn her back over to them. That’s what the issue is.’
As proven several times planned parenthood doesnt care if abuse of minors take place as long as they get the abortion they came in for.
This board has documented numerous cases of planned parenthood willing to perform abortions on minors without notifying police of laws being broken. As I stated above.
All that matters to liberals is that if a female is pregnant and walks into an abortion clinic for the purpose of getting an abortion is that THEY GET THE ABORTION COME HELL OR HIGH WATER. .
Age is irrelevant. THe only thing that is important is that praise at the altar of abortion doesnt get interupted.
Oh and JMC
It isnt a strawman since Adriane Browne opened his mouth about minors being allowed to see the video.
I could have easily said 17 years old (which is a minor) and it would have still applied.
Again liberals dont care about minors as long as they can get an abortion. Or am I supposed to believe that a 16 year old cant view a video but they can get an abortion. That is typical liberal logic.
Oh and JMC
“”oh, and a question: I assume, you would prefer, that five year old take on the responsibility of mothering? they could go to grade school together.”
I understand that to the liberal mind that abortion is the first and foremost option but there are such things as adoption and other family members raising the child. People do do that.
Oh wait. I forgot. FOr liberals abortion is the only answer.
Quote of the Day:
“I would prosecute the people that ordered it. Because torture is against the law.”
~Jesse Ventura, former Navy Seal
Quote for EVERY Day:
“If you wish to converse with me, define your terms.”
Voltaire
“Torture”, as defined by the Left includes activites that are so clearly and laughably NOT “torture”, that any and all credibility they have on this subject has long since evaporated.
Loud music? Caterpillars? Embarrassment?
Since these have ALL been designated “torture” by the Left, Jesse Ventura’s statement has no meaning. But then, neither does Jess Ventura.
Justrand
As I understand it Ventura was a Seal in the Vietnam war and underwent SERE training. So. I’d put his expertise up against the fat ass, pompous chickenhawk, draft dodging “expert” Dick Cheyney, and certainly over his daughter. And certainly over a wingnut like you. The rest of your post is just stupid.
Unrepentant Democrat, even if you repented I’m not sure you’re salvagable…but consider it anyway.
(a) Vastly more people who underwent SERE training assert just the OPPOSITE of Jesse. So your designation of Jesse Ventura as Universal Arbiter on this subject is “just stupid“
(b) The woman who haunts your dreams, Nancy Pelosi, didn’t find the techniques to be “torture”…since she said NOTHING! (and Nan is not shy)
(c) define YOUR terms. What EXACTLY is and is NOT “torture” by your Ivory Tower standards.
And when defining “torture”, imagine that you were able to procreate (with or without Nancy Pelosi)…and then imagine what you would and would not authorize to obtain information that could save your child’s life.
p.s. I agree with Jesse, btw…TRUE torture is awful. But we do NOT do that! 🙂
Yeah Unrepentant Democrat define “torture” because if any of your words can be parsed or misinterpreted then we shouldn’t have any hearings about any of it.
BTW there’s no language more difficult to pretend to misinterpret than the English language. One word can never have two meanings, etc.
The criminals in the Bush/Cheney administration worked to draw some Democratic politicians into their crimes, as accomplices after the fact. If the self-serving memos prepared some time after the meetings by CIA staff are to be believed, the politicians were given some information about the torture regime, under conditions of security, giving them the choice of condoning those crimes or breaking their commitments to secrecy. If Nancy Pelosi can’t play hardball then she shouldn’t be representing people.
If torture is against the law? How did Osluma get elected?
Justrand
I’ll go with the Army Field Manual on interrogation techniques.Whatever is permitted by that manual is OK with me. How’s that? Answers you question (C) succinctly I believe.
By, the way water boarding is forbidden in the Manual even though chicken shit Cheyney gets off on it. Bottom line – I’ll take the Manual the interrogators use in place of right wingnuts views.
As an aside I see that chicken hawk chckenshit Sean The Mouth Hannity hasn’t got the cajones to back up his big brash statement that he was willing to be water boarded. Pretty typical of the nattering nabobs of the right who have never been near anything more dangerous than the ride home every night.
As for Pelosi- I pray regularly she’ll decide to retire and that she’ll take Harry Reid with her.
“And I’d like to interject a note of balance here. There are times when we all get in high dudgeon. We ought to be reasonable about this. I think there are probably very few people in this room or in America who would say that torture should never, ever be used, particularly if thousands of lives are at stake.
Take the hypothetical: If we knew that there was a nuclear bomb hidden in an American city and we believed that some kind of torture, fairly severe maybe, would give us a chance of finding that bomb before it went off, my guess is most Americans and most senators, maybe all, would say, Do what you have to do.
So it’s easy to sit back in the armchair and say that torture can never be used. But when you’re in the foxhole, it’s a very different deal.“
Chuck Schumer, 2004
hattip HotAir:
Senate Intelligence Committee Chairwoman Dianne Feinstein, MOMENTS AGO:
“I think it’s a tempest in a teapot really to say: Well, Speaker Pelosi should have known all of this, she should have stopped this, she should have done this or done that.
I don’t want to make an apology for anybody, but in 2002, it wasn’t 2006, 07, 08 or 09. It was right after 9/11, and there were in fact discussions about a second wave of attacks.”
I would have to clarify UD’s insult to our troops. Since a big majority of veterans are republican/conservative, you comment is ignorant and insulting to say the least. ww
Unrepentant Democrat: “I’ll go with the Army Field Manual on interrogation techniques.Whatever is permitted by that manual is OK with me.”
We’re in agreement! Yup. Whenever we capture LAWFUL combatants from countries that have signed (and abide by) the Geneva Concentions we should do that.
But using that for terrorists seeking to destroy as much human life as possible in the most gruesome way? Heck, why not use the Girl Scout Code? Then all you can ask them is: “How many boxes of the lemon cookies would you like, and how many of the mint wafers?”
Justrand
Well there you go. There’s the difference.
WW
As usual you make absolutely no sense whatsoever. As usual you plucked a thought out of mid air and attributes something to someone they have never said. Amusing but also sad.
VENTURA: That’s right. I was water boarded, so I know — at SERE School, Survival Escape Resistance Evasion. It was a required school you had to go to prior to going into the combat zone, which in my era was Vietnam. All of us had to go there. We were all, in essence — every one of us was water boarded. It is torture.
Still agree with Ventura? 🙂
btw, I notice the far-right here always claim waterboarding is not torture because the SEALS do it. yet every SEAL I have ever heard speak on the subject says it is torture, Is there a winger who can find a case of a SEAL who doesn’t think it is torture?
best quote:
VENTURA: It’s drowning. It gives you the complete sensation that you are drowning. It is no good, because you — I’ll put it to you this way, you give me a water board, Dick Cheney and one hour, and I’ll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders.
Course none of the chicken hawks will ever do it. They will say it is not torture, they will say it is just a dunk, in the water, but if it is a dunk why are the cowards so afraid to do it? No one will of course answer, here come the personal attacks instead(which are not ad hominems btw.)
The Geneva conventions wisdom was not extended to terrorists. This is not a game of kick the can, where everybody plays by the rules and has a good time.
my mother-in-law finds eating corn on the cob to be “torture” because of her dentures…but is it REALLY “torture”?
I like BLTs…but Jihadis would consider being fed them to be “torture”…but is it REALLY?
I consider having eybalss gouged out, fingernails ripped off, and family members raped in front of you to be “torture”. and it REALLY is!
AND, I value my freedom of movement…and would find confinement to be true “torture” for me personally. Does that mean we should not confine criminals?
Water-boarding is scary, and gets results. But after it’s done your fingers still have fingernails, your eyeballs are still intact, and your family has not been harmed.
jmc, I’ll put it to you this way…
you give me a water board, Khalid Sheik Mohamed and 18 seconds, and I’ll have him confess to a plot to destroy the Library Tower in downtown L.A., and have him give up all the details so the plot can be stopped!
oh wait…that already HAPPENED!
I dont think that “chickenhawks” Whatever that is? Should be subjecated to torture tactics simply to prove that they can stand their own form of terrorist plot revealing technique..Unless of course ‘chickenhawks” Whatever that is? Are planning a terrorist attack? In which case they would be terrorists not “chickenhawks” Whatever that is?
Don’t tell me you beleive that B.S?
“The day after the announcement, twenty three separate intelligence experts, all with either CIA, FBI, NSA or military credentials, both in and out of service, angrily disputed Bush’s remarks about the alleged L.A. plot, with one going as far as saying that the President was “full of shit.”
Another described the claims as “worthless intel that was discarded long ago.”
A New York Times story cited “several counter-terrorism officials” as saying that “the plot never progressed past the planning stages…. ‘To take that and make it into a disrupted plot is just ludicrous,’ said one senior FBI official.'”
We did appretnyl get a log of bogus B.S. info, because people will confess to anything under torture. I’m sure Dick Cheney, really did, commit the sharon tate murders, and if you give me a waterboard, 18 seconds and Dick Cheney, I’ll prove it to you.
A chickenhawk is someone who chicken out of serving his country (say five times) but then acts like some big tough guy. Think Dick Cheney.
And, explain to me, why not do it if it is not torture? If it does not cause severe distress, if it is just a dunk in the water, then they should have no trouble doing it. The truth is it is torture, they know it is torture (as do you) and that is why they won’t do it. They just think,( as do you) that it doesn’t matter that it is torture because well, fuck those arabs.
So just admit. You don’t care it is torture you think we should torture our enemy and then defend that argument with the ticking time bomb or whatever reason you give for it. Just don’t lie and say it isn’t torture.
if a man breaks in your house tonight, holds a gun to your head, takes you and your whole family to field makes you kneel, says he is going to blow your head off then rape your wife, or mother, or whoever your family is, if you don’t swear to vote for Al Franken, after you promise, shows you the gun had no bullets… well, after it’s done you still have your fingernails, your eyeballs are still intact, and your family has not been harmed.
Still torture, even though it was scary and got results.
jmc, You really should decide which side you are on?
To quote any New York gossip rag as factual is pathetic.
“The plot never progressed past the planning stages”
First you plan a plot, than you carry it out? Is this somehow an infringement on your sense of fairness because they were figured out before they (He) Whatever? could murder thousands?
If He showed Me the gun had no bullets, That would be the last thing He ever would see. secondly, He would never make it that far in the first place.
A chickenhawk is someone who chickens out of serving his country (say five times) but then acts like some big tough guy. Think Dick Cheney.
And, explain to me why not waterboard the chickenhawks, if it is not torture? If it does not cause severe distress, if it is just a dunk in the water, then they should have no trouble doing it. It would be a good way to shut their critics up. The truth is though it is torture, they know it is torture (as do you) and that is why they won’t do it. They know they couldn’t handle it. They know it would scar them for life. They just think,( as do you) that it doesn’t matter that it is torture because, well, fuck those arabs.
So just admit it. You don’t care if it is torture. You think we should torture our enemy. You think the stakes are that high. And then defend that argument with the ticking time bomb, or whatever reason you give for it. At least that is an honest argument.
If a man breaks in your house tonight, holds a gun to your head, takes you and your whole family to a field makes you kneel, says he is going to blow your head off, then rape your wife, or mother, or whoever your family is; but will change his mind, if you swear to vote for Al Franken, and after you promise, shows you the gun had no bullets… well, you still have your fingernails, your eyeballs are still intact, and your family has not been harmed.
Still torture, even though it was scary and got results.
posted above accidently before I was ready.
Why, it’s not he like he tortured you or anything. Why does that upset you? Your fingernails are fine. eyeballs work, wife mom didn’t get raped. No hard to you. Why so upset?
Yes, I’m sure it is impossible for an intruder to ever get the jump on you. You probably have super powers. But for the sake of argument. pretend he is really quiet, me in and got to you before you could get your super power suit on. And then, took you to the field. I don’t see why you’d be upset anyway. No harm done right?
What are you supposed to do with terro…er excuse Me, I mean enemy combatants caught on the battlefield? (besides the obvious blow their brains out?)
Serve them kool aid with no sugar to get their future plans?
Why does that upset Me?????????????????????????????????????????????????
Gee whiz, pulling a gun on me and My Wife and Children was ok, I could have bought him a drink and had a few laughs over that. But showing Me the gun had no bullets? That really ticks me off..
jmc, you make a very good point. Note that 914’s response is basically to say that his imaginary internet dick is so big that nobody would ever break into his house and get away with it, which is a funny and clumsy way of avoiding the point: waterboarding is torture, and the Dick Cheney fan club think it’s acceptable.
Monsters. Better to let your nation burn than to sully its spirit with a legacy of brutality that would be more becoming of the English or Belgian empires in the 19th century.
So should you. I’m on the side of America and what our country stands for. You should join me, and quit fighting against the principles this country was built upon.
Only the far right thinks the NYT is a gossip rag. I’m sure only Fox news works in your world, You are not interested that so many intelligence agencies debunked this crap. You only look for news that fits your world view. Scary. Objective reason is not something you let intrude upon your beleifs.
New York Daily News (2/10/06) cited one senior counterterrorism official who said: “There was no definitive plot. It never materialized or got past the thought stage.”
Wow, really foiled that. Speaking of which, I was foiled from my plan to marry Cindy Crawford last year (never got past the thought stage) but alas, I was foiled (by reality.)
I see a general lack of perspective. As Liz Cheney pointed out, if we train our own soldiers with the technique, just how can that be considered some horrible brutal amoral form of torture?
So in essence, the position is that it’s good enough for our men, but we should spare the enemy?
Jesse Ventura is entitled to his informed opinion, of course. My opinion remains in light of events far succeeding the Vietnam War, that it produces results.
If the White House would just declassify the documents that Dick Cheney asked to be declassified to prove this point, I think you all may have some positions to reconsider.
Naturally, one has to wonder why those specific documents that are meant to prove Dick Cheney’s case are being held away while other tidbits of fragmented information is being released in it’s stead. One might think the current Administration just got it’s balls put in a vice.
How about the traditional interogation techniques, that worked on the japanese, the Korth Koreans, the nazi’s, iraqi’s in the first gulf war etc? I know in your mind you have super powers and therefore need super villans to fight, but Al Quaeda, are just a collection of men. Those techniques will work on them as well.
You are right. Let’s amend that scenario to the bullets are real he just didn’t shoot you or your wife. No harm done, I’m sure you, the wife and ids, can invite him over to dinner afterwards and have a big laugh over it.
I voted for Jesse Ventura and thought He did a good job..I like His outspokeness and sense of humor.
No harm done? No not at all.
Hyperbolist, Nobody asked U, but since you insist on interjecting your internet small dick into the equation, I dont care wether its torture or not if it keeps me and my family, friends including all of Canada safe from a nuclear armed jihadist nation.
Very true. These arguments always go this way, and I wonder why, given how they always make a point of dehumanizing their enemies, they won’t just come out and say they think we should torture.
my suspision is that, if Dick Cheney had ordered the fingernails pulled off of every one at guantanmo, these guys would still be defending that, with pretty much the same arguments we see here.